This is the fifth chapter in the series My List: Believe the Bible? Read why I started this list in About Me.
The following is a partial list of genocide acted out by a god attempting to create a perfect race of chosen people:
- Drowns the entire earth.
God floods the earth and kills every living creature. Except for the one family that was good enough to spare. Genesis 7:21–23 - Destroys two cities with fireballs from the sky.
God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah by reigning fire from the sky. Genesis 19:24 - Slaughters every Egyptian firstborn child to punish a stubborn king. Exodus 12:29
- Ordered Moses to kill 3,000 Israelites for worshiping a golden calf. Exodus 32:19-35
- Kills half a million people.
God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites. 2 Chronicles 13:15–18 - Kills 14,000 people for complaining.
The Israelites complain that God is killing too many people. So God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them. Numbers 16:41–49 - Orders the Israelites to “take vengence” on all Midianites.
After they killed every man, child and infant, they save all virgin women to keep as sex slaves. Numbers 31:7–18 - Has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including women, children and babies. Deuteronomy 2:32–35
- Commands the Israelites to slaughter all people of Bashan including women, children and babies. Deuteronomy 3:3–7
- Helps the Israelites destroy Jericho.
Once again slaughtering “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” Joshua 6:20–21 - Finishes off the Amorites with rocks from the sky.
God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes the job by reigning rocks from the sky. Judges 10:7-11 - Orders the slaughter of a tribe and the rape and kidnapping of virgins.
A tribe of Israelites missed an assembly to the Lord. So the other Israelites kill them all except for virgins, which they take for themselves. There weren’t enough virgins to go around, so they hid in vineyards to kidnap women traveling from Shiloh to provide enough virgins for everybody. Judges 21:1–23 - Kills 50,000 people for being curious.
God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. 1 Samuel 6:19 - Commands the slaughter of the Amalekites for something their ancestors did 400 years before.
God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekite men, women, children, infants, and cattle for the sins of their ancestors. 1 Samuel 15:1–9
Both god and Hitler attempted to create a perfect race by horrifically slaughtering all unworthy people. Hitler is viewed as one of the most evil and sadistic men to ever walk the earth. The god of bible is viewed as a father of “perfect love”.
Maybe it is because of the mustache. Hitler should have gone with a beard.
A spoof of a very clever ad for Thomas Webber Hats
[ reddit ]
Tags: Chosen People, Genocide, God, Hitler, Perfect Race, Slaughter
March 9, 2009 at 2:42 pm |
Only a fundie falls for literal bible absurdities. You may find these quotes beneficial as well.
Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai (author of the Zohar) wrote:
“If a man looks upon the Torah as merely a book presenting narratives and everyday matters, alas for him! Such a torah, one treating with everyday concerns, and indeed a more excellent one, we too, even we, could compile. More than that, in the possession of the rulers of the world there are books of even greater merit, and these we could emulate if we wished to compile some such torah. But the Torah, in all of its words, holds supernal truths and sublime secrets.
Thus the tales related in the Torah are simply her outer garments, and woe to the man who regards that outer garb as the Torah itself, for such a man will be deprived of portion in the next world. Thus David said:” Open Thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy law” (Psalms 119:18), that is to say, the things that are underneath. See now. The most visible part of a man are the clothes that he has on, and they who lack understanding, when they look at the man, are apt not to see more in him than these clothes. In reality, however, it is the body of the man that constitutes the pride of his clothes, and his soul constitutes the pride of his body.”
“Woe to the sinners who look upon the Torah as simply tales pertaining to things of the world, seeing thus only the outer garment. But the righteous whose gaze penetrates to the very Torah, happy are they. Just as wine must be in a jar to keep, so the Torah must also be contained in an outer garment. That garment is made up of the tales and stories; but we, we are bound to penetrate beyond.”
Likewise Church Father Origin writes:
“What man is found such an idiot as to suppose that God planted trees in paradise in Eden, like a husbandman, and planted therein the tree of life, perceptible to the eyes and senses, which gave life to the eater thereof; and another tree which gave to the eater thereof a knowledge of good and evil? I believe that every man must hold these things for images, under which the hidden sense lies concealed.”
And again the NT itself says the bible is not literal.
Gal 4:24 “Which things are an allegory: …”
Michaelangelo
March 9, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
Only literalist “fundies” believe that god actually did any of these things?
You’re telling me that all of these biblical stories are “allegories”? God didn’t actually slaughter thousands of men, women, children and babies. He only symbolically slaughtered them? Now it all makes sense. The abstract and spiritual meaning of god’s genocide is so clear to me now.
How exactly should a person decide what is biblical truth and what is allegory? If the story isn’t politically correct by today’s culture and science, then it must be an allegory. The problem with your logic is these stories were not originally written as such. They were taught as historical fact.
March 9, 2009 at 7:46 pm |
> You’re telling me that all of these biblical stories are “allegories”? God didn’t actually slaughter thousands of men, women, children and babies.
When you can present _historical proof_ that Herod killed every boy less then 2, or that God killed the people in question then we’ll talk.
> How exactly should a person decide what is biblical truth and what is allegory?
If you don’t have the intelligence (or common sense) to decide, then you probably should be reading another book.
> They were taught as historical fact.
Newflash. Not everything in the bible is true.
Jeremiah 8:8 But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
July 31, 2009 at 12:44 am
Ironically, you might be helping the blogger prove his points a LOT.
I applaud you for being able to discern truth from fiction, but I know a few folk who’d condemn you for your tendency to pick and choose from the Gospel. >_>
March 9, 2009 at 8:21 pm |
When you can present _historical proof_ that Herod killed every boy less then 2, or that God killed the people in question then we’ll talk.
You dispute the historical accuracy of most of the bible, but somehow the story of Jesus is accurate. That completely discredits your attempt ridicule me for lacking intelligence or common sense.
March 9, 2009 at 3:29 pm |
theBEattitude:
No, it’s not just stories that may or may not be ‘politically incorrect’. Let’s look at the story of Jesus bustin’ a move a making 5000 loaves of bread from two. If there’s anything I grab from that, it’s that you should make do with what you can.
There, lesson learned.
March 9, 2009 at 4:02 pm |
These claims by atheists that all religion causes is war and destruction really rub me the wrong way. For a group that claims to be intellectually superior it seems surprisingly short sighted to say that without religion we would be in a world void conflict and war. War has never been about “differing beliefs in god”. War is from people not being able to accept each others differences, whether those differences are from religion or the color of each persons skin. Take away religion and we’ll just fight about how each group of people eat their dinner differently. Its as simple as pointing at the atrocities committed by communist regimes so show that linking religion and acts of evil is just silly. Just because people commit acts of evil in the name of god doesn’t mean they won’t do it in the name of something else.
I know what you are saying, “oh great another fundamentalist whining on our message board.” That couldn’t be further from the truth. I am skeptical of anything people tell me to believe without question. That doesn’t mean that I should dismiss it either. Look at all the good committed by those because they have religion, why is that always discounted? The short-sightedness, deception and shear hypocrisy makes me not want to identify with your group at all.
March 9, 2009 at 4:13 pm |
Short-sightedness, deception and hypocrisy?
The purpose of this post was not to blame religion for war and destruction. And I didn’t blame Christianity for the actions of Hitler. My purpose was to ask why you would believe in this “Hitler-like” god and call him the god of perfect love.
March 9, 2009 at 4:41 pm |
It’s atheists like you that give all atheists a bad name.
March 9, 2009 at 8:30 pm |
It’s atheists like you that give all atheists a bad name.
Could you elaborate? Ninety percent of this post contained quotes from the bible. These are violent acts of genocide and I simply made a comparison.
March 9, 2009 at 4:30 pm |
I would say that God can bring people back to life if he so choose’s. Nothing he does is evil, if he does destroy people it is because they are evil as a matter of fact the bible says:2 Peter 3:9 he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain repentence.
March 9, 2009 at 5:41 pm |
Nazism also believed that the Jews were evil and that everybody that didn’t fit into the ‘aryan’ ideology so Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, ‘inferior races’ ect deserved death or exile as they were evils towards the Nazi state.
I’m sure that justifies the holocaust right?
Why is God allowed to kill people because he believes they are evil but Hitler and the Nazi’s not allowed to kill those that they believe are evil towards themselves and the entire German society?
And if it is the case that God only kills those who are evil how can you justify him killing the firstborn babies in Egypt? Did they happen to be evil satanic babies? Did they sprout wings and breath fire? What disturbs me about religion is that people can ignore what is blatantly morally wrong because a book says so.
The problem with the ‘good’ that religion does is that every good deed seems to be countered by a woman being stoned to death or a homosexual being hanged or a plane flying into a building. Extreme examples of course but even on another level it stops women being free to have abortions for example. It holds back science and medicine by arguing against stem cell research as well as evolution. Hell it used to argue that the world wasn’t round. Proof enough that it’s all bullshit at the end of the day.
It’s nice to say that you need to just ‘interpret’ it ( hilarious reply by beattitude by the way made my day) but the problem is the majority do take it as fact or at least the parts they like. So they use religion for justification to hate homosexuals, to repress women, to blow up abortion clinics, to fight wars, to commit acts of terrorism, to create fear in society and use it to control people, to create barbaric law systems which allow women to be beaten for simply being rape victims or allow ‘eye for an eye’ punishments literally in the case of a blinded woman who successfully got the man who blinded her blinded in return. Lovely.
It justifies so many many heinous disgusting things and because it has this ‘holy’ aura around it it can’t be questioned or argued against without the threat of death being thrown at those who do. Much like the recent dutch MP who made a film criticising the Qua ran and was shamefully not allowed onto British soil. Fear=control obviously. It frightens me for this very reason. Some people may believe that abortion is wrong or that the death penalty or ‘eye for an eye’ is justified and while I believe they are wrong they are perfectly allowed that opinion they are also of course allowed to believe in any god or prophet or anything else in the world that’s the whole point of freedom of speech and democracy. However the issue is that you are not allowed to question these beliefs as they are touted as holy fact, you can’t have a reasonable debate about issues because it is clouded by dogma, hell dogma is used to justify most of this stuff and personally I think people should have to justify morals and actions themselves rather than relying on two thousand year old desert scribbles to give them a guide on how life should be run from a culture so different from our own.
The world wouldn’t be a perfect place without religion. People love killing each other and love any excuse to do so however religion is a very disturbing excuse as most of it’s followers are devout bordering towards fanatical and are not allowed to question it and neither are outsiders making it almost perfect to use to justify any sick act you wish. Once you look into it you see how it becomes a perfect tool to control people and while Christianitys grip is loosening on the world Islams is stronger than ever.
Obviously not all people who follow religion are fanatical nutjobs most are lovely normal good kind human beings and I’m sure they’d hate there religion used to justify heinous acts but the problem is it is and they can’t question it or come to defend it because of what religion gives to them. It’s well complex to say the least.
Original post raises the obvious point that you can’t pick and choose what you believe it’s either all or nothing as at the end of the day when you start interpreting things you can make up pretty much anything from the words and this happens regularly today. Course God didn’t do any of those things as they were made up but if he had I certainly wouldn’t want to believe in him however if I did believe all that 100% I’d certainly be afraid and humbled by God which is exactly what those using him to control people want much like the Nazi’s wanted to create a religion around Hitler where he would be worshipped and feared in equal measures.
Rant over..
March 9, 2009 at 9:18 pm |
Impressive rant.
Most of my friends and family are Christian. And as you said, most Christians are “lovely normal good kind human beings”. I still can’t figure out how they justify verses like these. Call them allegories if you want to. It’s still an allegory about god slaughtering “evil” infants and children.
March 10, 2009 at 3:48 am |
@Believer, Last I checked, this god of yours had called home to rest billions, many through violent deaths, but only a handful were ever resurrected.
Where so called miracles happen, the chances were just that … chances.
March 9, 2009 at 5:17 pm |
You’re asking the wrong question:
How is God any different than the Allied powers?
You are asking a question in a manner that equates Hitler with God. But, really the predeluvian society was even more extreme in their injustice toward innocents than Hitler. in this case, only a few were left alive and God saved them for the sake of future generations of mankind. Either that, or according to the account, the earth was getting so destroyed, life for all creatures was at risk. He had to act.
Kind of like what’s happening to the earth now.
March 9, 2009 at 5:17 pm |
@concerned
The post is not meant to point at religion being the cause of all wars etc.. It is to point out the fact that the bible has some disgusting things in there that people choose to just ignore or refer to as ’symbolic’.
I also interpret this post to be a backlash at the fact that so many theists make outrageous statements, claiming that atheists are immoral etc.
This post points out the obvious fact that biblical scripture, (that so many people say teaches only love), does not make people any more moral than does the worldview of an atheist, and therefore theists do no have any moral highground.
March 9, 2009 at 5:23 pm |
theBEattitude,
Please don’t be put off by the other insinuating comments. It’s a shame that fewer christians actually read the bible cover to cover. If they do, they would prob realise the fallacy of this religion.
Here’s why I think they will never admit to it, but rely on the “metaphorical” plea when charged with such stories that are less than flattering.
1. Believers decide that god is just and true, and that the bible is true. In some parts of the world, called the leap of faith.
2. They then look at the evidence, be it the bible or the real world, and interpret it to suit the conclusion in #1.
3. There you have it, a holy, just and true god, with a bible to support it as well!
If those acts of murder and massacre were to be taken allegorically or metaphorically, then so should creation, the first sin, and the resurrection! In which case, what is so divine about Christianity?
In a twisted way, the divinity of god in Christianity, is its ability to create when it pleases to, to punish by murder if it so deems right, and to just sit right there and get away with it all, because it is god! That’s what makes it so divine! Any human being who even do or plan for a fraction of the atrocities by god would have been charged with murder or conspiracy for murder.
Christians, you cannot just have your cake and eat it. Just admit that your god is either a murderous god, or a bi-polar, schizophrenic god who is capable of possessive love, jealousy, murder and yet just, benevolent etc.
No wonder more and more are loosing faith in US.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-ARIS-faith-survey_N.htm
March 9, 2009 at 8:59 pm |
@Observer
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
March 9, 2009 at 7:12 pm |
In reading your chapter, I see that you left a few things out.
1. Drowns the entire earth.
In Genesis 6, 5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
If God is the almighty creator, it would seem that God would know when his creation had turned completely evil. If you take time to read the whole flood account (perhaps again) you would see that God provided a way of escape from his judgement, it merely required obedience. You didn’t even have to like God, just obey.
2. Destroys two cities with fireballs from the sky.
You forgot to quote chapter 18, where Abraham is bartering with God to not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but because 50, 45, 40 ,,,, 10 and I assume 1 (besides Lot, and even he was sketchy) righteous person couldn’t be found in the cities, God’s judgement would go forward.
3. Slaughters every Egyptian firstborn child to punish a stubborn king. Exodus 12:29
Maybe you didn’t know this one, but every single plague that was sent to egypt was an attack on the egyptian gods. They worshipped nature. Sun, the Nile, cows, etc. Pharaoh himself was considered to be a god, and so would the first born. The plagues sequentially got worse and worse. Pharaoh had every opportunity to avoid every single plague but his heart was hardened by the request of God through Moses. If God is trying to get Pharoahs attention what should he do? Bless Pharoah more and more. Pharoah already had more than any one could want.
4. Ordered Moses to kill 3,000 Israelites for worshiping a golden calf. Exodus 32:19-35
God had just rescued the israelites from egypt and God was dwelling among them. And now the people were trying to give credit to a golden calf that they had just made. So what should a God do who is trying to break people from idolatry, which the Israelites were doing while in Egypt? Is there a cost of sin? You know, like I am worshipping this golden calf and it starts telling me to fry my kids on an alter. Or while at the ashurah pole I hump everything in site and start mixing and matching diseases. It happened.
5. Kills half a million people.
So what should have God done? bless them more? or judge them and discipline the nation. Look at the entire last 3rd of the old testament. God sending warning after warning and prophet after prophet. He tells them specifically what they are doing wrong and what will happen if they continue. It’s not like one day he got ticked off and thought he would wipe out a million people just because he can.
When someone goes before a court room judge. Their record is generally put on display. And more often then not the rap sheet started off fairly tame and then progressively gets worse and worse. How many chances to give a person. Maintaining freedom of choice, when is a person beyond rehabilitation. When is a nation beyond rehabilitation? The same thing happened with the Israelites.
6. Kills 14,000 people for complaining.
It seems like complaining is an over simplification. But I am sensing a trend here. It seems all the stories are stories about God acting as judge and often executioner.
7. Orders the Israelites to “take vengence” on all Midianites.
Sex slaves? Really? I followed your link, didn’t see anything about sex slaves.
And it seems ironic considering that sleeping with the midianite woman was one of the things that started the mess.
8. Has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including women, children and babies. Deuteronomy 2:32–35
Similar answer as before
9. Commands the Israelites to slaughter all people of Bashan including women, children and babies. Deuteronomy 3:3–7
Similar answer as before
10. Helps the Israelites destroy Jericho.
Don’t forget that Rahab and all that were in her house were saved. Something about recognizing who God is.
11. Finishes off the Amorites with rocks from the sky.
Similar answer as before
12. Orders the slaughter of a tribe and the rape and kidnapping of virgins.
Wow! I don’t see any where that the Lord commands this.
13. Kills 50,000 people for being curious.
Although less sensational, it may have been 70 men. Losing your life for doing something you knew you weren’t supposed to do. What a high price to pay. If we learned anything from Indiana Jones its that you don’t look into the ark.
14. Commands the slaughter of the Amalekites for something their ancestors did 400 years before.
Similar answer as before
Alot of the stories are pretty sickening. And quite frankly, sometimes hard to understand. It doesn’t help matters that some of things happened 3500 years ago and all we have is just a few sentences as a statement of record. And of course we may not understand the Jewish culture; we didn’t grow up in a theocratic society; our only understanding of slavery is a negative one; we have education readily available; we can read and write; we arent’ dependant on an auditory tradition; we aren’t sheepherders; and many superstitions have been removed.
The point is that we live in a different time and to read the Bible strictly from our understanding of the world does a disservice to the Bible as well as ourselves.
If I understood your MO it was to find everywhere that God might look bad in the Bible and list it. I would find it equally interesting if you found everywhere in the Bible that God might look good in the Bible and list that.
That would be an incredibly interesting juxtaposition.
March 9, 2009 at 8:48 pm |
I would find it equally interesting if you found everywhere in the Bible that God might look good in the Bible and list that.
This is a legitimate argument. I’ve cherry picked some of the worst of the bible. The problem is you could list every good example of god in the bible and it wouldn’t change anything.
If a good person murders someone with vengeful anger, they are still an evil murderer. A genocidal leader doesn’t get the luxury of also being a perfect and loving person.
As Observer put it, “god is either a murderous god, or a bi-polar, schizophrenic god who is capable of possessive love, jealousy, murder and yet just.”
March 9, 2009 at 11:14 pm |
SCRO…obviously you understand the context of the bible. “Thebeatitude” would love for ignorant, uneducated people to come to his site, read his bible verses, and immediately become angry with God and judge Him.
Unfortunately, educated people like you do exist and your facts present and a Hugh problem for those with the atheistic view.
Your response is fair and balanced.
Strange how nobody took up a disagreement with your comments but quickly moved on to other judgment’s against God. LOL
SCRO, keep up the good work!!!
God Bless
March 9, 2009 at 11:30 pm |
““Thebeatitude” would love for ignorant, uneducated people to come to his site, read his bible verses, and immediately become angry with God and judge Him.”
I’m simply asking questions for discussion. If people want to be angry at an imaginary god, that’s their choice.
SCRO and you are both welcome to post here any time. I’d prefer for this to be a discussion rather than a bunch of people agreeing with me.
March 10, 2009 at 12:07 am |
““Thebeatitude”, I read your blog, you are a very honest man and state your views and objectives clearly. I look forward to using this form in a respectful manner with you and others. I apologize for my behavior in judging your intentions on this form earlier and will be respectful but honest in my views as well. Thank you for you kindness
Shane
March 10, 2009 at 9:13 am |
Yes, because it’s so darned easy to convert the uneducated to atheism. And that’s why every study ever done on intelligence and religiosity has come back with a negative correlation.
And regardless of all the half-hearted and weak excuses for total genocide comitted by god and his cronies, I ask simply why babies? Surely those not of an age to even be capable of choosing a god to worship count as being “innocent”…
March 9, 2009 at 7:21 pm |
Oh and yes, I can see the similarities between Hitler and God. The difference that I see… I believe that God hurts with death of his children, even if it is by his own hand. Hitler, not so much.
God was acting out of righteous judgment. And to understand the word righteous, you would have to do an open minded search in the Bible or perhaps do some surfing (the water kind
.
Hitler was wanting to be God (my own paraphrase on Hitler).
March 9, 2009 at 8:57 pm |
Explain to me how it is “righteous” to murder infants.
I’d like to try the surfing (the water kind) some time. But I doubt it will help me understand righteous anger any better.
March 9, 2009 at 10:46 pm |
To be straight up honest. I don’t think I can answer that question to your satisfaction or my own. But I will share my thoughts. I know this opens up probably a familiar can of worms. But we are talking about the sin problem. I don’t think we comprehend how sin has impacted our reality.
If we scaled down all the stories you have referenced to an individual person, we could use a medical example.
All of humanity represented by one individual… The individual develops some type of cancer. So the person tries to beat cancer by cleaning up their diet. It doesn’t work. And the cancer continues to grow. So whats next, radiation treatment, chemotherapy, scalpel. In every instance, the entire body is affected. Not just the cancerous tissue.
If the Dr. cuts out a tumor they take a bit of extra flesh and so on. I don’t think the Dr. wants to take more flesh, but it is necessary.
So what is God supposed to do with a society that is sacrificing children to golden gods, and husbands are lusting after each others wives and doing worse. This murderous society doesn’t take care of its widows or orphans and doesn’t respect life and the only thing the society respects is violent power.
How does God reach a society like that?
And if that warped society is attacking a people that you are trying to nurture into a “moral” society. Largely unsuccessfully, I might add.
At some point wouldn’t you step in and say enough. He punished the nations around the Israelites and if you read Jeremiah that is largely about Israel and Judah being disciplined by God via Babylon because they had become more evil than the surrounding nations. But the result was a repentant nation (for a time). It is interesting that Babylon is the nation that lays siege to Jerusalem, but God gets credit for it.
So if you kill off the moms and dads that are sacrificing their children on the alter to baal. How many orphans have you created? So take the babies too. Thats a terrible thing to think about.
Jimminy crickets, I wish I could sit down over some liquid and just chat… this typing business is a lot of work.
Like I said, I don’t think the answer gets it all.
I don’t see God as saying you either love and obey me or I will kill you. Could you imagine what my marriage might be like if I started out with that line. yikes!
I see him as a desperate God trying to save as many as possible from the ravages of sin. If a society is spreading cancer in his children, that society needs to look out.
That cancer is being created from all directions. Its coming out of hollywood as well as many churchs.
For the murder of infants to be righteous, you would have to have a godly amount of information at hand to make that call. And I suppose you have provided a fabulous case for being Anti-Abortion.
March 10, 2009 at 9:12 am |
Explain to me how you can have such a bad case of tunnel vision.
Take into account the culture of the time. When the Israelites first moved into modern-day Palestine, it was common practice to kill everyone in a city when it was conquered. Scholars have often wondered why God would allow the Israelites to wipe out entire cities, and part of the answer is probably that it was what they expected to do in war. The other part involves the people living in those cities.
Do a little research on pre-Israel Canaanite civilizations. They performed human sacrifice. They killed babies and put them in the walls of houses for good luck. Civilization in Canaan was depraved and sick. What’s more, anyone left alive would have continued the traditions they already knew.
Now I ask you, which is better: to spare a future serial killer, or to sentence them to death while they are still innocent? The truth is that neither choice is a good one, but the latter produces more good, more life, overall.
That’s just one example of how, considered in context, these acts make a lot more sense than the way you portray them. Yes, the Bible does show a vengeful God at times. But it shows a justifiably vengeful God, not this imagined Hitler figure you’ve contrived.
And as scro pointed out, several of the items in your post (#6 and #12 particularly) are grossly misrepresented. God wasn’t even consulted in #12. That was just 11 tribes of Israel and their rather hasty war with the 12th tribe. It’s a historical account, and the record doesn’t comment on whether God approved or disapproved. As long as you’re going to cherry-pick examples, pick some that are more difficult for me to dismiss. (That’s what you’re after, right?)
I know this has become a rant at this point (sorry), but for clarification: I do not classify any of the above as “allegorical” or “metaphorical.” If the Bible was just a book of allegories, what good would it be? (I know you’re going to argue that it’s no good either way. Spare me the diatribe.)
March 10, 2009 at 9:43 am |
@ gm3
Now I ask you, which is better: to spare a future serial killer, or to sentence them to death while they are still innocent?
If a baby is born a serial killer, that can only mean that god created them that way. If the parents are to blame for turning a child into a serial murderer, the child would still be innocent as an infant.
Your viewpoint of evil babies does fall in line with biblical teaching:
Exodus 34:6-7
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”
There is nothing quite like being born guilty of sins you didn’t commit.
March 13, 2009 at 3:51 pm
@theBEattitude
“If a baby is born a serial killer, that can only mean that god created them that way.”
I take it you don’t believe in free will, then?
Note that I did not say that the baby was born a serial killer, but that, given the society that would surround it, the child and later adult would follow the traditions of that society.
Although you obviously do believe in free will, because you’re encouraging people to consider their beliefs and possibly change them. (Without free will, you couldn’t hope to accomplish that.)
Back to the point you bring up in Exodus 34:6-7: yes, we are all guilty of sins we did not ourselves commit. Romans 5:12 makes it clear that “by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”. God holds us all accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve. But as the passage you quoted states, God will forgive wickedness, rebellion, and sin — *and* He will punish even the children of the guilty. How can both statements be true? Remember that, by definition, people who are forgiven are no longer guilty.
What was so bad about what Adam (the one man who brought sin into the world) did that all his descendants fell under its shadow? It was a departure from obedience. Up to that time, no human had ever disobeyed God, and it marked a departure for humanity. Now what about this question: were the Canaanites ignorant of what God wanted them to do? If so, they could not have been guilty. But we know from the accounts of Abraham and Moses that there were spiritual leaders in Canaan such as Melchisedec and Jethro that knew who God was, and what He wanted them to do. As a culture, the Canaanites ignored these leaders and disobeyed God. That is the definition of sin, and the entire society was involved in it.
That rather circuitous route brings me to the point I wanted to make about guilt and innocence: we are all guilty, but we can be made innocent. Beginning in Exodus 34, God outlined the plan for forgiveness of sins. As I said before, that’s hardly the characterization you describe.
Most scholars agree with you about the innocence of children — that up to about age 12, the parent is held responsible for the actions of their child. I agree with that viewpoint. I was simply outlining the instructions given in Deuteronomy 20:17-18, that the Israelites should completely destroy the cities in Canaan so that the culture there would not cause them to sin and become subject to punishment. God was more lenient with cities outside the land: they were not ordered to completely destroy them, and they left the children alive (see Deut. 20:11-20).
Can you speak for the ancient Canaanites? Were they actually good people, or did they in fact do abominable things to themselves and their children that caused God to order their complete destruction? You can accept the historical record — which supports the latter conclusion, by the way — or you can stand around and make up whatever you want to believe.
Apparently you want to believe that being an innocent child means that God will never let anything harm you. And the fact that God does allow children to be harmed must mean that He’s not real or that He doesn’t care. Well, David was as close to an innocent adult as anyone we know of, and God let all kinds of things hurt him, and He expressly stated that He loved David.
…There’s a lot to be said on that topic, but this comment is too long already.
And I’d still like a comment from you on #12.
March 13, 2009 at 9:07 pm
I certainly believe in free will. A person has the choice to do or believe whatever they choose. And it is true that evil people are often created by the world that surrounds them. That doesn’t change the fact that a baby cannot be evil. God could have spared the innocent children to be raised and taught by the law abiding Israelites.
For your second question, god was consulted in #12. The war against the tribe started because they took a solemn oath before god and broke the oath, deserving death:
“For they had taken a solemn oath that anyone who failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah should certainly be put to death.”
March 9, 2009 at 8:25 pm |
“When you can present _historical proof_ that Herod killed every boy less then 2, or that God killed the people in question then we’ll talk.”
The historical validity of these events is a separate matter and not, I think, one that is really that important to this post’s point. It is enough that millions of Christians believe that if God actually did do these things that He is described as doing then that would still be OK. Even so, what moral lesson can we honestly derive from a book that sanctifies the destruction of entire races and nations of people for either not being the “chosen ones” or simply holding different beliefs?
March 9, 2009 at 9:24 pm |
Even so, what moral lesson can we honestly derive from a book that sanctifies the destruction of entire races and nations of people for either not being the “chosen ones” or simply holding different beliefs?
Exactly. What is the lesson learned? What good can be drawn from an allegorical story about slaughter, rape, and baby killing? How could these stories possibly be important to a Christian?
March 9, 2009 at 10:45 pm |
How can these lessons possibly be important to a Christian?
We read, study and learn about the past so that we don’t
make the same mistakes as past generations. The truth to your
question is: you struggle with the fact that if God does exist…
You wonder what side of the fence He would find you on and
because of this, you try to get as many people to agree with
your views so that you don’t feel alone. You are still searching for
truth and that is a Good thing. If someday you come to believe
in God… He will not strike you down, he judges according to the
heart of man. I think you need to start living in the present time and
take a deep look at your own life and figure out what mark you
would like to leave for mankind? What is your purpose in life?
What are you here for? What choices have you made to help
mankind?
March 9, 2009 at 11:17 pm |
@Shane
You couldn’t be further from the truth. My wife, family and most of my friends are Christian. If I wanted to be around people that agree with me, I would still be a Christian.
I do not remotely believe in the god of the bible. So I don’t wonder what side of his fence I’m on. My goal is not to change your mind. I’m simply asking questions for discussion.
I am searching for truth. But not the truth that you perceive. I deeply believed in your god for over 30 years, so I’ve been there and bought the t-shirt. You can read more on my “About Me” page.
You’re under the impression that my purpose in life is to discredit religion. This blog is a hobby. My life’s legacy will be seen in my love for my family, my compassion for those in need, the music that I create, and my proclivity to question things that make no sense.
March 9, 2009 at 10:49 pm |
Shane: “He will not strike you down, he judges according to the heart of man.”
Right. Consult the Bible. Is this the same God that hardened Pharaoh’s heart and then punished him for having a hardened heart (Ex 4:21)? If such a God does in fact exist He is not worthy of my admiration.
March 9, 2009 at 11:25 pm |
Once again James…let’s look at the whole picture… and not a quick little bbile verse to make your point…
Answer: Exodus 7:3-4 says, “But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my people the Israelites.” It seems unjust for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart and then to punish Pharaoh and Egypt for what Pharaoh decided when his heart was hardened. Why would God harden Pharaoh’s heart just so He could judge Egypt more severely with additional plagues?
First, it is important to remember that Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator who was overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous Pharaoh—and possibly even the Pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The Pharaoh whom God hardened was an evil man, and the people whom he ruled agreed with, or at least did not dispute, his evil actions.
Second, before the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go. “Pharaoh’s heart became hard” (Exodus 7:13; 7:22; 8:19). “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart. God was giving Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the judgment that was to come. Pharaoh himself chose to bring judgment on himself and on his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands.
As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20; 10:27). Pharaoh, and Egypt, had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Pharaoh and Egypt had horribly sinned against God, it would have been just if God had completely annihilated all of Egypt. Therefore, God hardening Pharaoh’s heart was not unjust. God bringing additional plagues against Egypt was not unjust. The plagues, as terrible as they were, actually demonstrate God’s mercy in not completely destroying all of Egypt, which would have been a perfectly just penalty.
Romans 9:17-18 declares, “For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.” From a human perspective, it seems wrong for God to harden a person and then punish the person He has hardened. Biblically speaking, however, we have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23), and the just penalty for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Therefore, God hardening and punishing a person is not unjust, as it is actually merciful in comparison to what the person deserves.
March 10, 2009 at 12:01 am |
Wow, Shane. It is actually a bit frightening how readily and easily you are willing to accept that the murder of thousands of people, good, bad, and innocent, is somehow justified by the supposedly “evil” actions of one man or a few. Really, how is this justifiable? How is the slaughter of all first born innocent children without so much as inducing a single scrape on the “evil” man responsible for the Hebrew’s predicament worthy of praise? Why continue hardening Pharaoh’s heart just when he was ready to relent? Is that being merciful? Is responding to pain and suffering with even greater pain and suffering really how you would expect a wise and benevolent God to act? That astounds me.
What kind of powerful deity allows His “chosen people” to become slave laborers to a ruthless Empire for 400 years in the first place?
Looking at the whole picture only further confirms my original point – that if such a God does in fact exist He is not worthy of my admiration.
March 10, 2009 at 12:21 am |
Humans can take life, but we can’t bring the dead back to life, nor can we control what happens to someone after they die. A human’s killing another human is a destructive and irresponsible act, for once we kill someone, we can’t undo it or control the harm that results.
God, however, has greater abilities and knowledge than we do, including control over life and death. If God kills someone, he is able to bring them back to life or to place them in any sort of afterlife he chooses. God’s use of death is comparable to someone burning a fire in a fireplace: it can be controlled, lit or extinguished at will, and used for a purpose. In contrast, humans’ use of death is like setting fire to a dry field: the fire rages out of control, and consequently is dangerous and destructive.
Furthermore, what is death? Many believe that death is the end of both one’s body and one’s mind/personality/soul. If so, death is a destructive act for both humans and God. Yet if Christianity is true, one’s soul is not destroyed, but continues to exist in an afterlife. In this case, death is not destruction, but rather a transfer from life on earth to an afterlife of eternal joy or just punishment.
What gives God the right to do things to others without their permission?
God has given people autonomy in a wide range of areas. We make choices every day about how to spend our time and money, whether to do right or wrong and even whether to follow God or not. God does not force us to do his will, for he wants us to choose to do what is right (2 Cor 9:7, 1 Jn 4:18). Yet God has the right to, and does, change the circumstances of our lives.
If God were required to ask people’s permission before he did anything that affected them, he would be prevented from doing good, including some good which only he is able to do (e.g. miracles). People might not give permission for God to do some good things because they wouldn’t be able to understand how it would result in good, wouldn’t want to endure short-term suffering to receive a long-term benefit, or even because they wished to harm themselves or others. Suppose parents had to ask their children’s permission instead of requiring them to do certain things. There would be a lot of children who would be malnourished and/or sick, ignorant, selfish and unable to care for themselves, for what child willingly consents to receive shots, go to school, do chores, etc.? While adults have more knowledge and maturity than children, we are still ignorant and immature in comparison with God, and consequently don’t always know what’s best for us.
Also, there are things which we would never realize would make us happy until they were given to us or happened to us. Many Christians would never have given their consent to the circumstances that led them to become Christians, and probably could not have realized in advance what joy and peace they would have after becoming Christians. If God had to get their consent beforehand, he wouldn’t have been able to bring them true happiness and fulfillment.
Requiring God to receive the permission of humans before he acts would make him dependent on and controlled by humans. How can it be good for God, who is omniscient and morally and otherwise perfect, to be controlled by humans, who have limited knowledge and intelligence and often make mistakes or commit outright evil?
We, as humans, can look down a road and only see so far….God sees much much futher than we do….yet sometimes we like to think that we know better. We don’t even use half of our brain to reason with…How Much More Does God understand than you or I??? Yes James…you are looking at the whole point but only from what you are able to comprehend. God’s just a little bit bigger and wiser than us.
March 10, 2009 at 12:37 am |
Yes, right, I am totally convinced now.
Let’s assume that everything God does must be optimally good because that is how we are going to define God. Killing all of those first born sons was fine because….they are all in heaven now? But wait, all of these first born sons were Egyptian and therefore pagan and ungodly, which means….they must have been sent straight to hell? The hell that is not mentioned once in the Old Testament? Not to mention the horror and suffering experienced by their immediate family members who had to endure their loss. Tit for tat.
Death for you may be a joyous transfer to a blissful existence, but in this context death is clearly meant as a punishment – God is not killing off Egyptians so that He can send them to eternal bliss sooner rather than later.
And yet you insist that this really was the proper action of a wise and loving God. Seems to me that it is more like a dreadfully barbaric mythology crafted by an ancient tribe of people wishing to “prove” their own superiority through tales of how their God could beat up on everyone else.
March 10, 2009 at 3:40 am |
Interesting … if this god had attempted to soften the pharaoh’s heart, but fail, I would be admire his effort and intention. If he tried to soften and succeed, I would add to that wisdom and skill! Instead, he further hardens the pharaoh’s heart so that he can show how great he is by his acts of judgement? Goodness! This is worse than what conspiracy theorist come up with against the government!!
If the point was to free the chosen people, just teleport them or something already! Only an ego-maniac character in some diabolical story would first harden someone, so that they would resist, and inflict horrible suffering on him and the unlucky nation he rule, just so that he can free this group of chosen people. It almost sound like the conspiracy theory of US ignoring Japan’s warning of an attack on Pearl Harbor during WWII in order to give US reasons for entering the pacific theatre of war. *sic*
March 10, 2009 at 7:34 am |
God’s holiness stands behind the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. The cross provides the means by which sinners—the unholy—may be reconciled to a holy God. God remains just even as he justifies the wicked because his Son has taken upon himself their penalty, enduring God’s wrath on their behalf (Rom. 3:21?26) and, in turn, shielding them with the covering of his righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21).
March 9, 2009 at 11:28 pm |
Great post, keep up the excellent work.
My recent term, which I came about through a discussion of ‘terrorism’ in one of my political science courses, is that of ‘God being the original terrorist’. What motivates believers more, the grace and virtue of heaven? Or spending eternal damnation in hell? Seems to me like God relies heavily on, ‘the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion’, think about that one for awhile…
For anyone questioning the ‘negative results associated with religion’, please read “God is Not Great” written by Christopher Hitchens. Oh and follow that up with “The God Delusion” written by Richard Dawkins, if that isn’t enough, please lend US (rugged ‘bad-named’ atheists or my new personal term of association ‘Secular Humanists’) your response to “Jesus, Interrupted” written by Bart D. Ehrman, who himself came ‘out-of-the-light’ and exposed fallacies within the original Bible written in the Greek. Just some helpful suggestions for those of you still blinded by God’s almighty glory.
March 9, 2009 at 11:33 pm |
Back in the iron age of Usenet they used to say you could tell when a debate was no longer rational when Hitler was mentioned… but a punchy headline is always good.
OK, look, you are mining in the wrong vein. One of the best essays in the collection “Philosophers Without Gods” (Louise M. Antony, ed.) — a book I am sure you would enjoy reading — is by David Lewis, entitled “Divine Evil.” Lewis looks beyond the bloodthirsty bits of Hebrew history to the deeper and infinitely wider evil of the promise of damnation. There are numerous biblical promises that god is determined to punish a very large number of people with suffering that is eternal. These passages can’t be interpreted away, they are right at the heart of Christian theology. Many Christians wouldn’t want to interpret them away — see above, the people who argue that all those idolators had it coming.
But eternal, meaning infinite in duration, suffering is infinite in scope. Even if only one soul was damned, its suffering would accumulate to more pain than felt by all humans who ever lived — but the bible is clear that many, if not a large majority of the human race, have been or are to be damned.
This is an uncomputable, cosmic quantity of suffering that arises not from any natural or accidental cause, but is directly mandated, decreed, and instituted by god.
The brief pain felt in dying by the populations of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Midianites and Amelikites? Tiny, trivial, microscopic, in comparison to the pain that god promises and presumably is even now inflicting on an uncountable number of people. And scripture is clear: the pain will go on for. ever. and. ever. and. ever.
This is the true divine evil, as promised (and even praised) by Christians. Not the rickety little historical atrocities: the genuine, god-decreed, ongoing and endless atrocity of eternal suffering.
March 9, 2009 at 11:45 pm |
Using Hitler and god in the same sentence is usually a bad idea. But I hope it was read as a rational debate.
I agree. The bigger evil of god is the promise of never-ending suffering in hell. I’ve had many Christians try to soften hell’s image as a place we are “separated from god”. But the bible is pretty clear on this one.
I’ll have to give “Philosophers Without Gods” a read. Thanks for the recommendation.
March 10, 2009 at 9:25 am |
The bigger evil of god is the promise of never-ending suffering in hell. I’ve had many Christians try to soften hell’s image as a place we are “separated from god”. But the bible is pretty clear on this one.
That’s a flat out lie that is been taught for quite some time now.
It is logically inconsistent belief. Revelation 14:11; 20:10 use the word forever. But logic alone tells us that if hell burns forever “on the breadth of the earth,” it would be impossible for God to create a new earth. And if God kept sinners alive to endure an eternal burning, He would fail in His mission to rid the world of sin. Instead, He would perpetuate it.
I have never met anyone who could enjoy heaven knowing that loved ones or family were being tortured throughout all eternity. Thankfully, the Bible states that the new earth will be a place without sorrow or pain (Revelation 21:4).
In Scripture, “for ever” is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide “for ever” (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for “as long as he liveth” (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish “for ever” (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for “three days and three nights” (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses “for ever” to mean “for as long as time lasts in that specific case.” The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer’s afternoon (or a sermon!) that “went on forever.”
The Bible tells us that “the wages of sin is” not eternal life in hellfire, but “death” (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that “the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as “stubble” and would become “ashes under the soles” of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the “earth.” Compare that with Psalm 37:10 (“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be”), Psalm 68:2 (“as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God”), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.
Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would “surely die” as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17), a liar.
March 10, 2009 at 2:47 pm |
“I agree. The bigger evil of god is the promise of never-ending suffering in hell. I’ve had many Christians try to soften hell’s image as a place we are “separated from god”. But the bible is pretty clear on this one.”
Why does the idea of hell scare you so much?
The bigger evil of God would be people like Hitler….
March 10, 2009 at 2:57 pm |
“Why does the idea of hell scare you so much?”
Hell doesn’t exist, so why would I fear it? Belief in a god that says, “love me or else” is based in fear. Jesus should have said, “Happy are those who fear without seeing”.
March 10, 2009 at 3:39 pm |
Gosh, all the rape and murder that transpires in the world…. to think that some of these people are sentence to Prison for Life….
Gosh, really…prison for life???
And to think that God could do the same to us in the afterlife…. Wow, what a crazy and unrealistic concept… If we are not able to freely choose the right to act on our free will in this life???? What makes you think you get a free ticket in the next life??? There are always consequences for actions??? But in the afterlife…we get to choose what we think we deserve??? Hmmmm boy that sounds great. Can’t wait to meet Hitler!!!
Speaking of Fear…think of all the people that don’t commit crimes because they “fear” going to prison. Jesus should of said… everything goes and there are no consequences for your actions and this applies to life on earth as well…. Hmmmm Interesting theory…
March 9, 2009 at 11:46 pm |
When a person does it to another person, it’s called genocide.
When a divinity does it to people, it’s called justice.
Starting with the assumption that God is fundamentally above us and His actions are incomprehensible to us, we can’t compare the motivation and scope of His actions to anything human.
Comparing Gods to Hitler was pretty cool and inflammatory, but it doesn’t even need to be that big – a child that dies from diarrhea because of inadequate access to medicine.. or a good, kind, person, getting shot helping somebody else. These are huge, faith-shaking injustices.
Religion is sort of a sealed system with internal logic. To argue it through, you have to start with different assumptions
And most of the stuff you referenced was the old testament, rather than the new testament. Where the concept of justice was “an eye for an eye” or, “god razes your eye”! Seeing the bible as a political text is useful as well – people wanna say bad to their enemies.
Correct me on any of these points if I’m wrong – just throwing in my two cents.
March 9, 2009 at 11:58 pm |
When a person does it to another person, it’s called genocide.
When a divinity does it to people, it’s called justice.
Being a divinity gives god a “Get out of genocide for free card”. One of his many “do as I say, not as I do” teachings.
The wrathful god stories are all in the Old Testament. But even Jesus quoted the law to kill your children if the don’t honor you. (Mark 7:5-10)
March 9, 2009 at 11:56 pm |
[...] heisstillthere @ 5:53 AM I’m awestruck! I wanted to go to bed and noticed that the top post on WordPress is one by someone comparing God to Hitler! Huh? The top promoted post, the first [...]
March 10, 2009 at 12:02 am |
I was the top post on WordPress today? Seriously?
March 9, 2009 at 11:57 pm |
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;” (Isaiah 5:20) That is exactly what you are doing and WOE unto thee!
“Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee..” (Proverbs 9:8) That also describes you based on your post and your sarcastic, self-exalting answers to those who have tried reasoning with you.
There is no talking to a foolish person who has already made up their mind. That would be you. Judgement Day is just around the corner and you can meet your Maker as Judge who shall judge you accordingly (I’m talking about your whole life-not this silly post!) rather than as Advocate/Savior which is how I and countless others know Christ and shall meet Him.
It is at that time (far too late) that you shall realize the verse, “Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men…” (1 Corinthians 1:25)
March 10, 2009 at 12:19 am |
“There is no talking to a foolish person who has already made up their mind. That would be you.”
So the only purpose of your comment was to inform me that I’ll be burning in hell for eternity. I thank thee for the warning.
March 10, 2009 at 2:55 pm |
Now now… “thebeattitude” I thought you were fair and balanced??? This lady is just quoting some bible verses just like you quote differnet bible verses. I don’t think she is personally attacking you or stating that you are going to hell…. she just stating what the bible states? Correct??? With all due respect …I don’t think you are going to Hell.
March 10, 2009 at 3:02 pm |
“That is exactly what you are doing and WOE unto thee!”
“There is no talking to a foolish person who has already made up their mind. That would be you. Judgement Day is just around the corner and you can meet your Maker”
Wow, I guess I was confused. These sounded like threats to me.
March 10, 2009 at 12:18 am |
Terra Firma People Garden
A populated world orbiting sphere
Operating with an unnecessary fear
Forged by reality free choice totality
Imbedded with humans abnormality
Huddled together as man and wife
Lives are built from survival’s strife
Having a momentum for continuum
By hairs breathe survival minimum
Burdened with relentless strain an pain
No one gets off easily, were all the same
Knocked down by disease, cold or heat
Facing death by no breath or heart beat
Mortals replaced by hot sex persistence
Qualifying an magnifying life’s existence
Creating days from natures unfair maze
In a reality choked out by pollution haze
Working for the taxed devaluating dollar
Wanting God’s favor from prayer’s holler
Having artificiality made deity good deeds
Easily crushed by thugs for their bad needs
Sweat shed for enslaving tax public works
Police shooting at the over population jerks
Drugs are fueling ego tattooed pierced mortals
Lurking in the shadows of stupidities portals
Political Armies battle for country and power
Countless gallons of blood spewed every hour
Blurred photos of lights qualify as Alien UFO’s
Make wannabe experts that none actually knows
Shaman deemed doctors, pill poison mortal kind
FDA proponents push regulations that are blind
Books plagiarize written, profess to know “the” God
Ignorant folk’s read them, giving others ‘the’ Ok nod
Clergy and law makers denounce pedophilia and sin
As they deceive the innocent young, again an again
All religions await their profits return to fix the fiasco
As faith and hope fade away like a Sistine Chapel fresco
Will mortal kind ever realize “we” are in charge of love?
Rather than rely on an invisible no show deity from above
~Commonsensekid~
March 10, 2009 at 12:38 am |
Qualifying Creative Quality
O how I wish there was a real good God
Helping us survive Earths bacterial sod
Ministering to all through sweet dreams
With an encouraging morality that gleams
Supplying a mortal frame that will not rot
Having hemoglobin that will not brain clot
Bones that bend rather than break in a fall
A body that can endure any reality all in all
This God won’t condone bacteria’s & viruses
He would be with us through any bad crises
The great God would not allow religious wars
He will not accept humans dying by the scores
Crime and corruption is not his mental making
Persons would be real in heart without faking
A real God needs not churches, clergy & prayer
If he did it right, we would treat each other fair
Using truth, beauty, goodness and loving service
A visible God can keep folks from being nervous
He must have a working universe administration
To detour big Meteorites from Earths devastation
His celestial workers could regulate the Suns heat
And stop the worlds wobble, keeping the orbit neat
I’m just a puny fragile skin & bones evolving mortal
And have the commonsense in seeing a better portal
Boiling reality down to a usable tangible conception
We’re that freewill choice person called God in action
Reality goes at the speed of choice, that be understood
Quality thoughts will evolve this world into the good
Shit I wish there was a really good God from everyone
Helping each other survive by tilling Earths sod for fun
We could actualize our sweet dreams through ministry
Our moral code would express a higher creative dynasty
Happiness and contentment would exemplify good health
Religions no longer create the poor, we would have wealth
Fear gossips, deity myths, and stupid superstition expelled
We Earthlings can enjoy life from good thoughts propelled
Want bliss? Think about this
~Commonsensekid~
March 10, 2009 at 7:42 am |
Really, A good God would do all the things that you mentioned above??? Really??? Sounds like to me you are trying to Make God your puppet? What are you doing to make the world a better place? What actions are you doing to put your thought into motion? What part do we have in this creative process???
And if God did make a perfect world as you mentioned above??? Would we cooperate with his plan?
March 10, 2009 at 12:44 am |
[...] An interesting post and comment thread juxtaposing God and Adolf Hitler. [...]
March 10, 2009 at 12:53 am |
Good points on all sides. There are good things in the Bible and there are atrocious passages as well. I once heard a preacher say that you should take what you want from the Bible and “chuck the rest”. Water into wine. That’s one of my favorites. Chill and have a drink (and don’t you know Jesus did just that). There is wisdom in the Bible. Take what you want and chuck the rest…
March 10, 2009 at 3:52 am |
@rjjrdq
The problem with that is it perpetuates a falsehood that the bible is good, cover to cover. If we were to cherry pick the ones that is right, maybe we should establish the ones that were picked as bible 2.0? … oh wait, the vatican council at nice did that back in Roman days. So this would be 3.0.
Problem is that this is unlikely to happen. And because it will not happen easily, it means that those who cherry pick verses that appear to be wise, are equally guilty of condoning those verses that are murderous, contemptous of other faiths, and destructive to mankind in general.
March 10, 2009 at 1:05 am |
Great work man! I am no christian myself, but i did read the bible and if anythin, i had a hearty laugh! I thought no sensible christian would remain so if he read the bible. N finally, i ve found someone to prove that point.
Anyway, since i agree with most of what u said, n since u ve already mentioned most of what i know about the bible, i do not ve much els left.
I ll only suggest u read ‘the mysterious stranger’ by Mark Twain. It’s soemthing of a kids’ tale, but the part about religion and God is really good.
Rock on…
March 10, 2009 at 2:41 am |
Shane: “He will not strike you down, he judges according to the heart of man.”
March 10, 2009 at 4:49 am |
Ahhh good old religion…the one thing we can all fight about… Productive use of WordPress server space I must say!
March 10, 2009 at 6:11 am |
Hmm. If God existed it would be true that he/she/it(ip?) would be rather violent towards its own creation which it proclaims to “love” so very very much. But what you’re forgetting is that on top of all this killing, God also sends billions of people to burn in the torturous pits of Hell…continually. Glad I don’t believe in this stuff. It’s too scary for me to stomach.
March 10, 2009 at 7:01 am |
Oh my god people, stop taking the Bible literally!
March 10, 2009 at 7:03 am |
[...] Both god and Hitler attempted to create a perfect race by horrifically slaughtering all unworthy people. Hitler is viewed as one of the most evil and sadistic men to ever walk the earth. The god of bible is viewed as a father of “perfect love”. (Source) [...]
March 10, 2009 at 7:32 am |
Hitler did it because he was damn nuts, God was a different understanding at least. I don’t know too much but damn this post is bold. Then all of our US presidents are like Hitler too in a way. War is a bitch, but could it be considered genocide at the same time?
Just because you like blue eyes, blond hair doesn’t mean you have to kill every other not “pure”. From what I see it God did it because there were things happening that at that time were dealt with a certain way. Also it could just be a story, since the bible isn’t supposed to be taken literally because of it being stories to help guide us and give us examples.
March 10, 2009 at 8:00 am |
I’m surprised by the number of Christian comments claiming these stories never happened. I know many people are not biblical literalists, but I didn’t expect so many people to choose the “a la cart” approach.
Jesus quoted Old Testament stories and law repeatedly in his teaching. So I’m not sure why so many are willing to discredit these verses so quickly. If a Christian only believes what he or she wants to believe, that isn’t Christianity. It is some sort of hybrid religion.
March 10, 2009 at 8:09 am |
[...] recently found a blog post on a Atheist site (Who has a awesome top banner), comparing Hilter to God, yeah I know a little too harsh. They [...]
March 10, 2009 at 8:51 am |
I love it when atheists start attacking Christian beliefs. It gets so wacky sometimes, and has an air of “LOOK AT ME! I”M SOOOOOOOOO CLEVER!”
March 10, 2009 at 8:51 am |
Thanks for the candidness of your post. Skeptics Annotated Bible does a similar thing by pulling out all of the difficult passages of the Bible.
I know an article that addresses this very issue that I will put out there for anyone who wants to honestly deal with it. No pressure or anything…but if you’re open to a Christian interpretation, then I highly recommend Glenn Miller’s site. The link to this specific issue is: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html
In spite of the html (which is brutal to wade through) I think it is well worth the read.
Blessings.
March 10, 2009 at 9:31 am |
The Christian God and the Jewish God have very different outlooks; Is this not the premise of ‘forgiveness’ that was ushered in with the teachings of Christ? – in regard genocide, one is accountable the other isn’t.
March 10, 2009 at 9:55 am |
The the god of Christianity and Judaism are the same god. Yahweh is the father of Jesus. So in regard to genocide, he is accountable.
Jesus was a self-proclaimed fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. So you can’t have one without the other.
March 10, 2009 at 9:47 am |
I believe they happened and that God was right in doing it. He would also be right in doing it to me. I think that you fail to take into account that we are not fundamentally victims but victimizers of God. I respect your question.
If some of those who have commented above can pick and choose what they believe in the Bible, then they probably shouldn’t believe any of it.
March 10, 2009 at 10:02 am |
@ Clint
I respect your belief. If a person chooses to be a Christian, they can’t pick and choose what teachings they want to believe. Jesus had harsh words for “lukewarm” Christians.
March 10, 2009 at 10:33 am |
Most of what you describe is not politically or racially motivated, which Hitler’s behavior was (and often based on pseudo-science at that). It is just punishment for the bad behavior of groups (e.g. disobedience, sodomy), nor is it on the scale of the fallout from the Hitler-Stalin pact
(c. 50,000,000 dead).
Your claims sound strangely like those of Leftists who equate Israeli nationalists with Muslim subversives and terrorists. As for God being loving, that happens only in the Gospel — not in the Pentateuch, as witnessed in the Book of Jobe, where he is merciless. The sacrifice of the Son, the Christ, was necessary for good men to be redeemed; those with God’s saving Grace will bring about their own redemption through good works. Those of Jewish origin should always come to Christ for redemption; that they do so in pitiful numbers is tragic.
“Jews as Nazis” is a standard expression on the Left. I am not surprised WordPress — which has taken to bashing the Catholic patriot Robert Spencer — featured your Christ-hating blog.
March 10, 2009 at 11:18 am |
What a Stupid Question!!!!
There is no difference!
March 10, 2009 at 11:29 am |
The ultimate lesson of the combined old and new testaments is that God does not, in fact, condone murder. Of any kind. Ever. The Old Testament stories are more about the state of humanity rather than a litany of attempted — apparently failed — retributions by and angry God. For one thing, if God really spent time counting and weighing the sins of humanity, then none of us would be here. And who are we to think that anything we do could possibly change God (i.e., make Him angry, happy, whatever). But the most important and unequivocal statement of God’s absolute rejection of violence is, believe it or not, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
March 10, 2009 at 11:58 am |
It is difficult to understand God’s actions and decisions sometimes. We do not have the mind of God. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. I do not equate God with Hitler. As a previous poster pointed out, God always gave a way of escape for anyone who would choose to take it. Hitler didn’t. There was plenty of room left over in the ark for anyone else who wanted to get in with Noah (see Answers in Genesis). But, people CHOSE to refuse it. If you want more proof, read the story of Jonah. The Ninevites were spared destruction because they repented. Jonah was totally angry with God for changing His mind! The problem is not with God, the problem is with man. The Bible tells us that we are all sinners. On our own, we are not capable of doing good. If we look around, it doesn’t take long to see that this is true. We may not all be murderers, but then again, Jesus said that a person who hates has already committed murder. Because God is holy, he judges sin, just as a judge in a courtroom must judge wrongdoing. Now, if Hitler were brought before a judge after WWII and tried for crimes against humanity, and he were found guilty, but was given no punishment, we would be very angry with the judge, wouldn’t we? We would say he was he wasn’t a very “just” judge. We would want him to execute punishment on Hitler for all that he had done. Nothing short of the death penalty would be justice for most, right? This is a bad comparison, but that’s sort-of how I would explain God’s judgments that you are describing. In a court of law, all of these people would be found guilty. They deserved punishment. God, as judge, gave it out. We may not like it, but consider this> Now, what if Hitler repented on the witness stand? What if he said he was grieviously sorry for what he had done and asked forgiveness? Would we want the judge to withold punishment? Not many of us would. Yet, that is what God did in the situation in Ninevah.
I think we want God to be loving, but we don’t want him to be just. Would we want this of our judges? Think about how crazy our world would be if crime was never punished, if serial killers were found guilty, but then released to kill again and again. We would be outraged at the justice system! Likewise, I think we would be outraged with them if a reformed serial killer were let go, even if he never killed again.
God’s ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. He is not like Hitler. With God, there is always a way of escape, if we would just recognize it and surrender our lives to Him.
March 10, 2009 at 12:04 pm |
I agree that a person can be both loving and just. People should be punished when they do evil things.
But god did not choose not to only punish the guilty ones. He wiped out entire nations of people not even sparing small children. That is not just.
March 10, 2009 at 1:39 pm |
It is true that God had the entire nation of people removed, including women children and even animals. But, according to Scripture, there is not a person alive on earth who is not sinful, even little children and babies. We tend to view children as innocent, but the truth is that we are all born knowing how to be evil, aren’t we? I mean, no one has to teach a child to say “no”, or how to bite. But, we DO have to teach children to be obedient and respectful. Also, evil is often perpetuated generation after generation. It takes a lot for someone to break out of a pattern they’ve grown up with. I think gangs are a good example of this. I’ve taught at many schools in the inner city where gang life was deeply entrenched into the children’s way of thinking. It confounded me how they often simply “reacted” out of a gang mentality without even thinking about it. When I asked one child about why he got into a fight with another, and didn’t just walk away – take the high road – he told me I, “in [my] white world would never understand it” (which is interesting since I’m hispanic). He told me he HAD to fight, otherwise he’d look like a “sissie”, and the other child would be back with six more of his family members to really do him in. The Bible tells us that the “sins of the fathers are visited to the 3rd and 4th generations”, meaning that once it’s perpetuated, it’s almost inevitable that it will continue on for generations to come, it will even be present in those yet unborn. That’s what I so vividly witnessed in my teaching days, and I wanted so desperately to put my arms around these children and tell them there was another way. I did tell them. But, they rejected me. Just as God told these nations, but they rejected Him.
So, in answering your statement, I’d have to say that if God “wiped out entire nations of people not even sparing small children”, that He did so because they were, in fact, all guilty. If there were even one who were innocent, He would have spared him/her (look at Rahab in Jericho, Lot in Sodom & Gomorrah). God IS loving and merciful, but man rejects him. God is patient, and offers a way of escape, but man doesn’t want God’s way.
I often wonder what has become of these inner city children that I taught. Perhaps some of them chose what we’d call the “right” way, but I fear most of them chose the way of their fathers-lives of crime, murder.
Now, here is a difficult question: if you KNEW that an unborn child was going to grow up to be Hitler, what do you think you would do with that child?
March 10, 2009 at 2:05 pm |
The real problem in the problem of evil–the core of it, as it were–is that granting God’s omnipotence, there seems to be no way to avoid the conclusion that God finds the perdition of an indefinite number of human souls acceptable in light of the greater good which their perdition makes possible. Thus, even if we grant that, it makes sense to talk of a rational creature freely choosing its own perdition, and even if we hypothesize that God has in some sense limited his power with a view to creating more glorious creatures by virtue of their free will,{2} it is nevertheless the case, according to the tradition, 1) that, in the light of his eternal existence, God knows the end from the beginning; and 2) that he had no need to create; and even if he chose to create, he might have created differently. As such, we cannot avoid placing full responsibility for existence–including every aspect of human experience, whether in this life or the next–squarely on God’s shoulders. Let us admit that when we bow before God, it is not because his “justice” has been demonstrated to us. It would seem more reasonable to say that we bow before his power. It is pointless to try and defend God against those who cry foul. A more fruitful approach, as we shall see, is to understand why we ought, indeed, to bow before his power.{3} Rather than attempting to justify the ways of God to man – But this can only be done if we let the dialectic of the problem take us beyond the confines of orthodoxy and, finally, beyond good and evil.{5} – City of God – Augustine
And last…. Apropos of “justice” and “power,” the following text from On Free Will is quite interesting: “If you are not in your own power, then someone must have you in his power who is either more powerful or less powerful than yourself. If he is less powerful the fault is your own and the misery just. But if someone, more powerful than you are, hold you in his power you will not rightly think so rightful an order to be unjust” (3.6.19).
March 10, 2009 at 12:17 pm |
This has been a pretty interesting read so far. I’ve enjoyed reading the comments people have posted to debate your post.
Debates on religion can go so many ways. I mean, there’s the issue of God as the one with the power to spread justice or the ‘brutality’ of God. These debates can turn so nasty, too. So I commend you for honestly laying down the flaws of the Bible and religion.
It’s allowed me to see what there is, what the opposing sides are and still decide for myself. Hopefully, it can do the same for others. Personally, I still don’t have faith.
Thanks.
-Christine
March 10, 2009 at 12:35 pm |
“Jesus quoted Old Testament stories and law repeatedly in his teaching. So I’m not sure why so many are willing to discredit these verses so quickly. If a Christian only believes what he or she wants to believe, that isn’t Christianity. It is some sort of hybrid religion.”
You are correct. I for one don’t consider myself a Christian by the books or label myself as one, but do believe in God. I do believe however that most things in the bible are supposed to teach us something and not be taken word for word since most are stories.
March 10, 2009 at 12:39 pm |
That poor god. Bound to be omniscient and omnipotent according to dogma.
And yet, he cannot be both, for how could the omniscient find the omnipotence to change his/her future mind?
March 10, 2009 at 12:44 pm |
[...] If genocide is evil, how is god [...]
March 10, 2009 at 12:57 pm |
Most of those are examples of “National Karma” which is an interesting concept put forth by Hindus. Take a look at it one day. It may help.
March 10, 2009 at 1:21 pm |
The difference is in that God never existed and Hitler did. The stories in holy scripture that chronicle divine genocide probably either never happened, were mythologized historic, natural events or were perpetrated by the Isrealites for all the wrong, but all-too-human reasons.
In fact, here’s a similarity: “God” is in a way an ideology, and so was Hitler’s dream of the Third Reich. So you could argue that faulty programming in people’s gray matter causes genocide.
March 10, 2009 at 2:17 pm |
God never existed? Wow, did He persoanlly tell you that? – Be careful how you answer. LOL
March 10, 2009 at 2:30 pm |
God does exist? Wow, did he personally tell you that? – This circular argument can go on forever.
March 10, 2009 at 7:15 pm |
Actually, He did tell me He existed. I tested Him on several occasions and each time He answered me. It has been an amazing journey for me and I can tell you without a doubt that God and Jesus do exist. I challenge anyone to Test him and watch what happens. If you search for him, it’s impossible not to find Him.
My soul is calm and I’m excited and overwhelmed for what He has done for me and I will spend my time preparing to be with Him again.
My Faith was strong before but along the way I began to Doubt and he came in like a mighty wind and changed my destiny and brought me hope, when I had no hope, brought me light when I was in my darkest days, he rescued me in such a way that I would be the world biggest liar if I did not confess and stand up on His behalf. The events that happened to me are impossible to call a coincidence. Again, it would be impossible to call it a Coincidence….
It’s because you do not search him out that you don’t see him. Test Him.
Matthew 7:7 -8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If you truly search him out with all your soul and mind… It’s impossible not to find Him.
March 10, 2009 at 8:28 pm |
@Shane
Test Him? For all bible verses you quote, you should know it teaches not to do this.
Exodus 17:7
And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?
Deuteronomy 6:16
Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.
Isaiah 7:10-12
Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, “Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.” But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test.”
Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, “It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Luke 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
1 Corinthians 10:9
We should not test the Lord, as some of them did–and were killed by snakes.
March 11, 2009 at 9:22 am |
My dear friend “thebeattidute…. Really it teaches us not to TEST GOD….are you sure??? All bible verses…. Hmmm what about this one…
In Malachi 3:10 NIV, God is proven to be our source, therefore we are given proper instruction on how to handle that which has been given.
“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this, says the Lord Almighty and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.”
Do you understand what the word Test means??? It means to simply ask God to show you that he exist… You have not done that? That’s why you have not found him and you search for your puppet God. Again…I know that he exist and it scares you to realize that someome on your form…knows 100% that God and Jesus do exist…. Seach with all you heart soul and mind and your creator will make himself known to you. Othewise, waste your time with your foolish ideas thinking that you know better than God… What you need is a puppet God. YOU MY FRIEND MAKE GOD LAUGH…
The Bible speaks about different kinds of fools. rich fool ,wise fools etc ,etc.They make God angry ,makes Him laugh and on and on. Paul talks about wise fools in Romans 1 . ” For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools ” 1;21 Some ‘wise’ fools say, “there is no God.” [Psalm;53] They may be highly educated scientists or whatever. but God has put them in fool’s category. Those who do not understand God’s works are fools.” How great are your works, O Lord, how profound your thoughts! The senseless man does not know, fools do not understand, ” Psalm;92;5,6 They don’t have no regard for God’s works.God will not build them up but will tear them down . -The Bible says.Because they do not glorify God nor give him thanks they are without excuse.
Another group do not listen to God’s calling or teachings.They ignore God’s ways and walk according their own interests . These are the people make God laugh .” But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you– when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. ” Proverb;1;24-27
Other fools store up things for themselves but are not rich toward God.They are in big danger as we see in Luke 12.On the other hand the wise fear God and glorify Him.They will try to do what is pleasing to God.They will have regard for God’s doings.
March 11, 2009 at 11:08 am |
Shane-
I have no idea why I’m replying to you at this point, but your long rants deserve some comment.
You stated: “Do you understand what the word Test means??? It means to simply ask God to show you that he exist…”
I understand what the word “Test” means. And the bible also defines it for you:
“they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?” (Exodus 17:7)
The Israelites were asking god to prove that he exists by providing them with water.
You tell me that I “make god laugh”. If the god of the bible truly exists, he shouldn’t be laughing about someone destined for hell. That would only further prove the cruelty of god.
March 11, 2009 at 12:13 pm |
I’m sorry, I stand corrected. Test is not the correct word to use in this situation. I was tying to convery that if you search God out with all your heart and soul, He will find you. Instead of the word “Test” i will use the word “Ask” – thanks for the correction.
Matthew 7:7 -8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
March 10, 2009 at 1:47 pm |
Thank you theBEattitude for yet another reason that Christianity (as an organized Religion) and it’s God are wrong in their entirety.
I don’t think people of this Religion should be arguing on a logical level..they aren’t going to win over non-believers with that because so much of their book of knowledge is so hypocritical.
The only argument they have is the argument of faith. That’s the only way this nonsense we call Religion is going to prosper. Alright, maybe there are three ways:
Faith, Ignorance, and/or Stupidity.
March 10, 2009 at 2:14 pm |
Don’t worry Travis, we Christians also have verse for you:
Matthew chapter 7. Verse 5 says, “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
Have nice day!!!
March 10, 2009 at 2:33 pm |
Jesus’ log in in the eye comment was always one of my favorites. There’s just something funny about visualizing a man walking around with a plank of wood sticking out of his eye.
March 10, 2009 at 3:13 pm |
My favorite quote -
Buddah quote:
“Do not think of how big the universe is, it will merely hurt your head.”
Based on that I’ll take two tylenol please… One for me and one for the guy with the Plank of wood in his eye….
March 10, 2009 at 7:55 pm |
You’re like an arrogant archer shooting down what you consider hypocrites with your biblical verses. The words of your god, in a quiver, ready to be fired anytime.
Have a nice day, too.
March 11, 2009 at 9:24 am |
HEY JOSEF…. YOU MAKE GOD LAUGH
The Bible speaks about different kinds of fools. rich fool ,wise fools etc ,etc.They make God angry ,makes Him laugh and on and on. Paul talks about wise fools in Romans 1 . ” For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools ” 1;21 Some ‘wise’ fools say, “there is no God.” [Psalm;53] They may be highly educated scientists or whatever. but God has put them in fool’s category. Those who do not understand God’s works are fools.” How great are your works, O Lord, how profound your thoughts! The senseless man does not know, fools do not understand, ” Psalm;92;5,6 They don’t have no regard for God’s works.God will not build them up but will tear them down . -The Bible says.Because they do not glorify God nor give him thanks they are without excuse.
Another group do not listen to God’s calling or teachings.They ignore God’s ways and walk according their own interests . These are the people make God laugh .” But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you– when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. ” Proverb;1;24-27
Other fools store up things for themselves but are not rich toward God.They are in big danger as we see in Luke 12.On the other hand the wise fear God and glorify Him.They will try to do what is pleasing to God.They will have regard for God’s doings.
March 10, 2009 at 3:32 pm |
Genocide is either acceptable or it isn’t. Hitler is reviled (and rightly so) for genocide and the same rules apply to god.
March 10, 2009 at 3:51 pm |
I have a answer for all this with my recent post here.
March 10, 2009 at 4:01 pm |
Wow you ask a good question in your post.
March 10, 2009 at 4:48 pm |
Amazing! Acceptance. A belief in God could turn out to be the best experience of your life. You are ruining it for yourself. In the end, if you pursue this route to the point of blasphemy, you will see that you did it to yourself. God was near you to help you but, had no choice but to watch you destroy yourself. Jesus said that He can heal the sick and even raise the dead but, He can’t stop a fool from being a fool. We have a free will. In the meantime, as a believer, you are taking advantage of people’s ignorance.
March 10, 2009 at 5:17 pm |
@Dave Cortesi What about heaven? It’s in the bible too. In fact,
heaven is right at the heart of Christian theology too…hmmm…
Eternal, meaning infinite in duration, paradise is infinite in scope. Even if only one soul was saved, its joy would accumulate to more pleasure than felt by all humans who ever lived — but the Bible is clear that many, if not a large majority of the human race, have already been or will be saved!
This is an uncomputable, cosmic quantity of pleasure that arises not from any natural or accidental cause, but is directly mandated, decreed, and instituted by god.
The brief pleasure felt in intercourse, a sumptuous feast, winning the Olympic Gold Medal, falling in love? Tiny, trivial, microscopic, in comparison to the love that god promises and presumably is even now giving to an uncountable number of people. And scripture is clear: the joy will go on for ever and ever and ever.
This is the true divine good, as promised by God for all who accept His mercy and Grace. If you are going to judge God for allowing Hell to exist, you need to take Heaven into account too.
March 10, 2009 at 5:21 pm |
I’m not going to argue the literal interpretation of the Bible, but only a contemptible person would equate God with Hitler. Why don’t you tell a Holocaust survivor that God and Hitler are equals?
Maybe you should have spent a few years in a concentration camp slowly starving to death while watching your friends die horribly in gas chambers. Maybe then you would learn some humility, instead of bering so smug.
God exists whether or not every word in the Bible is literally true and whether or not people like you believe in Him.
It’s obvious that you have some problems that you’re trying to work out. While you’re struggling with your issues with God and religion, don’t attack Christians and others of faith because it only makes you look bad, and in the end, it only hurts you.
March 10, 2009 at 8:13 pm |
All of us could use a lesson in humility. As a believer in god, I don’t blame you for being offended by the post. But I’ve done little more than list a group Old Testament bible verses that show the vengeance of god.
What is contemptible is telling someone they should spend time in a concentration camp.
March 10, 2009 at 5:25 pm |
NONE OF US WERE THERE to witness anything mentioned in the list of 14 genocides! Remember, when discussing ANYTHING about the god in the Bible, you’re not discussing the CREATOR of ALL THAT IS! The Bible god is an individual or (race of individuals, ET’s to be accurate) who interacted with humans of those times. Humans of those times were hard pressed to accurately describe the technical capabilities of the ‘gods’ who were present on Earth. So anything ‘heard’ or ‘witnessed’ that the Bible god(s) did would have baffled any human charged with recording events. Christians and members of other ‘god -fearing’ factions are fooling themselves by taking anything ‘literally’ that the Bible offers, with an exception to the two words in the Bible I have come to respect the most. “Know thySelf” spoken by a man known by many names, and who was eventually placed on a pedestal by those who need to worship something or somebody. Why be a ‘follower’ of a belief structure? We say things like, “I won’t believe it until I see it.” If I see, hear, taste, smell and feel anything with my physical senses, then I KNOW it to be TRUE! Belief is NO LONGER an option! Logically speaking, how does the word ‘belief’ stand up to the word KNOW? It’s good to see the exchange between people here . . . however time is a wastin’!
March 10, 2009 at 5:46 pm |
Don’t forget that the motivation was the same too–self-glory.
But isn’t this also why you post blogs. This is why you read and respond to critics. This is why you are an ambassador against Theism. This is why it will please the Lord to save some and to destroy others.
However, He alone has all control and all authority over creation, and is present in the creation. Hitler did not. You enjoy your short life. He is a stumbling block for the disobedient and a Rock that does not move. You hit this Rock and you only break your hand.
March 10, 2009 at 6:17 pm |
Amen (ahem)! A vengeful, jealous god. Just what we should be worshipping. NOT. Religion is illogical, it’s as simple as that. The bible is a book full of chinese whispers, which the christians of today interpret in illogical ways to back up their nonsensical crap. Except for the things they conveniently decide to not follow, of course. The reason for the picking and choosing of passages to follow? Not everything fits their agenda. So, that’s conveniently ignored.
March 10, 2009 at 6:17 pm |
Amen (ahem)! A vengeful, jealous god. Just what we should be worshipping. NOT. Religion is illogical, it’s as simple as that. The bible is a book full of chinese whispers, which the christians of today interpret in illogical ways to back up their nonsensical crap. Except for the things they conveniently decide to not follow, of course. The reason for the picking and choosing of passages to follow? Not everything fits their agenda. So, that’s conveniently ignored.
Well done on the article! I’ll be following your blog with interest.
March 10, 2009 at 6:20 pm |
Anybody ever notice that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says to pray in private AND to let your faith be a beacon unto others, let it shine all around the world, etc. Which one is it?
March 11, 2009 at 9:43 am |
theBeatitidue in regards to comparing Jesus to Hitler….
Commandment states
Thou shall not use the lord thy God name in Vain.
Let’s compare theBeattiute to Lucifer…
You both suffer from Pride… I will not serve is you motto
March 10, 2009 at 6:28 pm |
Oh Please can you not find a better way to validate yourself then to take up the religious war cry. Sorry honey it’s been done to death.
Boring.
March 10, 2009 at 6:34 pm |
all religion is whacked! every single one of them.
March 10, 2009 at 6:49 pm |
The whole blog is a joke. Hitler killed innocent people out of hate and a belief in evolution (his own words). God ordered the slaughter of the ultra evil to protect the innocent. He can remove who He creates if the created person hates Him. Pretty simple logic. Maybe you should check your own heart towards Him… you won’t have an excuse when you stand before Him, and “I didn’t know” won’t work then, it’ll be too late.
Oh, and for the quote “all religion is whacked! every single one of them.”, that includes you, because humanism is as much of a religion as anything else.
March 10, 2009 at 9:37 pm |
I can see a lot of controversy over this blog but I like it. I believe in God, and I believe He isn’t perfect. Were we not created in his image? The Old Testament Version of God was a very Jealous, Vengeful being and so many people fail to either realize or admit that. All this writer did was point out one of the many flaws in a book that has after all been produced by man. Had Christianity not become so popular who knows what gibberish we’d be reading and what “GOD” we’d all be bowing down to.
March 10, 2009 at 10:16 pm |
There are so many contradictions and atrocities in the bible that Christians don’t know what to believe. They have to pick and choose in order to maintain their faith. Even if you excuse God for killing millions of innocents in these ‘evil’ cities, he still condoned murder (Judges 19:29).
And, once you believe that it’s ok for God to kill ‘evil’ people, you open yourself up to the belief that God approves if you kill ‘evil’ people. To paraphrase Voltaire: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
http://www.makotokan.org/2009/03/08/a-christian-reaction-to-september-11th/#respond
March 11, 2009 at 9:29 am |
Will,
**They have to pick and choose in order to maintain their faith. Even if you excuse God for killing millions of innocents in these ‘evil’ cities, he still condoned murder (Judges 19:29).**
Do they really have to pick and choose? Your premise seems to suggest that we are good people by nature and that God would be unjust to punish good people. Could the opposite be true?
**And, once you believe that it’s ok for God to kill ‘evil’ people, you open yourself up to the belief that God approves if you kill ‘evil’ people.**
How so? If I believe that God is uniquely good and I am thoroughly bad and deserve punishment, then justice would say that He has rights I do not have.
March 11, 2009 at 7:23 pm |
Clint: By ‘pick and choose’ I was referring to the picking and choosing of various verses of the bible to justify various beliefs. The bible is not consistent. It might be literature, it might have a great story in it, it might inform and enrich our lives, but it is not the divine word of God and it is not consistent. More on that in the link I provided.
I do tend to believe that humans are basically good, if a little flawed. Of course I can’t prove it, but I can argue with you about it.
From my perspective, the verses in which god tells the Israelites to go and kill every living thing in a city, or to kill all the men and take the women as slaves – these verses are the real problem. The Israelites believed they were God’s chosen people – just like the Germans believed that they were the superior Aryan race and destined to rule the world.
My biggest problem with religion is that it is based on belief. Once you believe something outrageous, like that god made a virgin pregnant, then you are more likely to believe other outrageous things – like it’s ok to kill people who don’t worship your god. See?
March 12, 2009 at 8:02 am |
I’ve come to the conclusion that at least the first part of the OT should be read as a political document–it gives the Israelites cover for what they did or were going to do anyway. And if you’re going to commit genocide, it works a whole lot better if you can say God put his imprimatur on it.
And of course, if all goes to hell and your race is enslaved or thrown out of your land, you can avoid blaming the leadership by telling your people that it’s all their fault for straying from Yahweh’s teachings.
March 12, 2009 at 8:04 am |
Err, that wasn’t supposed to be a smiling smiley at the end–it was supposed to be a tongue-sticking-out one.
March 13, 2009 at 5:53 am |
Who is the God of the Bible? everybody on here that loves to rant on God and Christians seem to be looking through a straw and not at the whole picture. if you want to question God’s personality and why he has done what he has done then you have to look at his reasons and all that he has done and not say “hey Hitler seems to have done this, why does God get away with?” my question is, have you people that don’t believe in the Bible, have you ever read from cover to cover? if you had you would have a better picture of what God is. Some of you have said we have no free choice, well if we didn’t why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? if God wanted robots he would have given humans no possible chance to sin. The God of the Bible is a God of love because he knew that the greatest good is love and the greatest evil would be to take away love. God knew it would be impossible for someone to love Him if he took away free will, because otherwise it’s not true love. God wants us to make a choice he wants us to do the right thing. just like a child is punished for taking a cookie out of the cookie jar so was adam and eve and everyone else that has ever existed. Hitler punished because people were born into a differnet family or life-style. God punished when he was wronged. think of it perspective as a child and a father, a child wrongs his father he is punished so is man when he wrongs God. in Gen 3:9 it says that God as he was walking through the garden he asks “where are you?” when he was looking for adam and eve. now is saying that God does not know everything, no it is saying that God loves us and he wants to be close to us. a loving father does not let his kids go unpunished because he does not want them to do what they did again, its the same with God, he doesn’t want us to sin again so he punishes us but he has give us the choice of right and wrong because if he just gives us the right choice then he commits the greatest sin of taking free will away that takes away love. this kind of conversation can not be done effectively on a blog it requires face to face discusion for anything fruitful to come of it. i just wanted to through my imput on the situation.
March 13, 2009 at 7:52 am |
“my question is, have you people that don’t believe in the Bible, have you ever read from cover to cover?”
Yes I have, I know the book well. Reading the Bible cover to cover is the quickest way to loose faith in Jesus. Most Christians are Biblically illiterate.
If God knows everything as you claim, he knew Eve would eat the forbidden fruit before she did it. That is not free will, it’s called a setup. I find it amusing that the all knowing god shows up at the garden and acts like he doesn’t know what she has done.
March 13, 2009 at 6:41 am |
Just another Christian:
We are approaching this from different perspectives. I start from a position that is something like this: I don’t believe anything that can’t be proven. The existence of God can’t be proven. If I look to the bible for proof or disproof of God’s existence, I see more evidence that God doesn’t exist.
Most Christians, I think, start from the perspective that God does exist. That’s a requirement of the faith – you can’t be a Christian and not believe in both God and Jesus. So you start out with that belief, and everything in the bible is then seen as proof of God’s existence. To you, the inconsistencies are proof that humans can’t comprehend God fully. You see a great coherent story, where I see many different stories, written by different men throughout the ages with different perspectives and ideas about their god.
You’re not going to convince me that God exists. I don’t know if I will convince you to become agnostic, not sure that’s what I want to do.
But I do think my position is more logically defensible than yours.
And I agree with you about the value of face to face.
March 13, 2009 at 8:39 pm |
About free will.
At judgement day J-0, all will be judged and some will go to heaven and other to hell. At this point, both groups still have free will.
J+n days into the future, they will have free will. It means that J+m days later, they can potentially change their mind, just as Lucifer and other angels did. If they do change their mind, do they go to hell? If they do, then the “eternal” heaven is a sham. If they don’t, over time, J+eternity, there could be a high chance that there will be a whole bunch of god-hating ppl up in heaven. The fact that they dislike god, hence heaven, but are stuck in heaven, makes their stay in heaven a living (eternal) hell! …
Meanwhile in hell … …
A similar process happens. Since they are not robots, and can still have choices (though potentially to no effect), they may start to love god, ‘cos damn, if loving a bi-polar, sadistic murderer is what it takes to leave this inferno wretch and join the choir singing camp, then let’s praise the lord! But wait, will they get to go to heaven? If they do, then “eternal” hell is not that eternal as well. So over J+eternity, you could have a bunch of god-loving ppl, stuck in hell.
So if you have free-will + eternal heaven/hell, you get chaos.
If you have free-will + order + happy campers, you get temporary heaven, hell. From here, it doesn’t take much to realise that some of the censored teachings on rebirth may be true afterall.
Or perhaps ppl in heaven and hell will have free-will, but will not change their mind anyway!? … in which case, if you can still call this free-willed ppl, why don’t god mad angels, Adam and eve, and the rest of humanity such free-willed ppl who will choose him anyway?
By now, a rational thinking individual should realise how naive the whole christian/judaism/creation-god idea is. Hardcore christians will simply attribute all these illogical conflicts as something that is assumed to be alright, but something that is too complex for us humans to phantom; that god’s ways are mysterious.
I like what someone once said to her christian friends on that (paraphrased):
“Yes, god’s ways are mysterious and too complex, and hence are not revealed to christians. But all will be revealed when you see god. … … And he will tell you, that the truth is, the law of causality is the Truth, that there is rebirth and karma, and that there is no eternal whatever … … “
March 13, 2009 at 11:52 pm |
And btw, that’s why some denominations believe in purgatory and not hell; purgatory was a place of pain meant as punishment to those who have sinned. Thereafter, they would be admitted to heaven … not all accept this theology and is still be debated.
Fact that it is being debated tells me that even the christians themselves are not clear, but are just speculating about it. And they have the self-righteous cheek to tell people that their book is holy and their god is righteous, while others, regardless of the good they have done, are evil and works of the devil, satan worshippers, just because the book say so.
March 14, 2009 at 12:01 am |
On killing babies, church theologians have suggested a limbo state where babies who are killed will remain in a limbo state until judgement wherein the teachings are declared to them and they will be given a choice/chance to accept god. In order to *answer* to the unrighteous damnation of those who die without hearing of the word, this limbo state was also extended to those who died without having heard of the word of god.
Note however, this limbo state was rejected, approved, rejected approved several times over the past few hundred years. And you thought the scientists could not make up their minds.
It becomes very clear therefore, that in the minds of christians, they already accepted god without question at all, and thenceforth, they would change the evidence to suit the conclusion. This would include changing the world, creating an artificial jewish state, while neglecting the middle-east socio-cultural sensitivity, declaring war on those who do not believe in god (The Crusades), persecuting those who believe in god, but not in the exact same orthodox way (The Inquisition) etc etc etc.
If christians want to claim that christianity as said in the holy book is holy, righteous and all, it would need to completely throw away HUGE chunks of the book leaving behind only fundamental values that can already be found in many other religions and in most of human common sense anyway. And if it makes them happy, then call that christianity if you must, but don’t go self-righteous to ppl and start preaching about the sanctity and infallibility of the holy bible.
March 14, 2009 at 8:56 am |
Will,
**My biggest problem with religion is that it is based on belief. Once you believe something outrageous, like that god made a virgin pregnant, then you are more likely to believe other outrageous things – like it’s ok to kill people who don’t worship your god.**
I feel that once you believe that God takes an active role in His creation, you should feel more accountable to do as He has commanded in Scripture–not the opposite.
———————————–
Observer,
“And if it makes them happy, then call that christianity if you must, but don’t go self-righteous to ppl and start preaching about the sanctity and infallibility of the holy bible.”
Are you not preaching the fallibility of the Bible? Why are you allowed to do so and prohibit Christians from doing the opposite?
March 16, 2009 at 6:28 pm |
@Clint:
“Are you not preaching the fallibility of the Bible? Why are you allowed to do so and prohibit Christians from doing the opposite?”
Conversely. I’m preaching neither. It is like you don’t need to preach about gravity, or that fire is hot and ice is cold. That the bible is fallible and is shown to be contradictory at best is just like that; it is not preaching.
March 14, 2009 at 9:02 am |
Observer,
“Fact that it is being debated tells me that even the christians themselves are not clear, but are just speculating about it.”
Or, it could be as BEattitude has clearly pointed out–not all people who call themselves Christians will believe the entirety of Scripture but only hold to the warm and fuzzy teachings. I would say it is an inconsistency that weakens their claim of being Christian.
March 16, 2009 at 6:17 pm |
@Clint,
Most agreed. Consequently, it is even more ridiculous how they can make self-righteous claim to have all the answers and that all other faiths are, by rejection of the christian god, evil.
*sigh*
March 15, 2009 at 7:55 pm |
Here’s a fascinating article that posits an explanation for the schizophrenic nature of the OT god:
http://www.georgeleonard.com/yahweh.html
March 16, 2009 at 3:56 am |
“Or, it could be as BEattitude has clearly pointed out–not all people who call themselves Christians will believe the entirety of Scripture but only hold to the warm and fuzzy teachings. I would say it is an inconsistency that weakens their claim of being Christian.”
Clint,
People that say they are Christians and do not believe in everything the Bible says are not real Christians, to be honest i would rather be an atheist then to be a “christian” and believe in the whole Bible.
I believe in everything that the Bible says and yes i do believe God killed thousands of people because they were disobeying and frankly a part of me thinks God could have done things differnetly but then when i think about it that i start to think how would the world be different if God did not intervene the way he did. as humans we can not know Gods motives and plans but as a Christian i must believe them, just like an atheist must believe in evolution or their whole belief system and life does not make sense. to be a Christian it takes faith, just like any other way of thought. I know God cannot be proven, it takes faith, but one thing I do know is that God cannot be disproven. God made this world and he intervened in ways that will not prove his existence but at the same time they will not disprove him either. God made this world so that we would have to have faith in him. God made it so that when we have faith in him then we can believe what the Bible says is true, that God did kill thousands of people with good reason. if we don’t believe in God then it is impossible to believe what God did had a good reason behind it. for everyone here one this post i just hope and i pray to God that you will realize that God is who he says he is in the Bible. i really wish i could sit down with you and show you guys evidence of God and the reasons I believe what i believe. until there is face-to-face converstaions i don’t see this discussion going any where except constant disagreement. I’m only 17 but i know i will make a differnece somewhere i just hope i can make one here.
March 16, 2009 at 12:43 pm |
You might have posted the only comment here by a Christian that actually addresses the point of the original post – genocide by God in the bible – and I’m glad you’re not trying to ignore it.
I have to point out that Evolution is not a core atheist belief. Evolution is a scientific explanation for changes in plants and animals over time, just like there are scientific explanations for how electricity works or why the sun rises. A person might be an atheist without believing in Evolution.
You’re quite right that the existence of God cannot be disproved, but the existence of Ganesh, Thor and Allah cannot be disproved either.
Back to the main subject again: if God can commit genocide, then genocide is okay as long as you have a good reason.
March 16, 2009 at 6:12 pm |
@eikonos:
Very good point there! Of the gazillion beliefs out there, why should the christian god be singled out to be true when it is just like the rest.
And about why god can get away with genocide and all, it can because it does not exist.
March 26, 2009 at 2:10 pm |
[...] Click here for the rest of the list! [...]
May 9, 2009 at 3:35 am |
thank god for the person that wrote this! this is exactly what i’ve been trying to get through to the blind christians that surround me.
May 9, 2009 at 8:32 am |
You’re welcome. If Christians would actually read their Bible, they wouldn’t be blind to these stories of angry wrath and slaughter.
June 13, 2009 at 7:00 pm |
I didn’t read many comments- I just read the post. And I think you’re right. To me, God is an imaginary Adolf Hitler.
July 30, 2009 at 7:54 pm |
June 17, 2009 at 7:27 pm |
Be sure to check out King David’s swath of murder and enslavement.
July 9, 2009 at 8:01 am |
[...] como las historias más conocidas, pues hay muchas otras anécdotas de verdadero genocidio divino.Ante mis constantes cuestionamientos a dichos pasajes biblicos, siempre recibía la misma [...]
July 30, 2009 at 1:39 pm |
Hi! I checked some Bible verses you listed and found out only 70 was struck down yet you claimed 50,000 under following list, what a big exaggeration? Where did you get the number from?
# Kills 50,000 people for being curious.
God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. 1 Samuel 6:19
The other list below didn’t have rocks from the sky. I wonder where you got that from?
# Finishes off the Amorites with rocks from the sky.
God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes the job by reigning rocks from the sky. Judges 10:7-11
July 30, 2009 at 6:35 pm |
In the biblegateway link,
“Footnotes:
1. 1 Samuel 6:19 A few Hebrew manuscripts; most Hebrew manuscripts and Septuagint 50,070″
Presumably, the 50k comes from the Hebrew translation. => Later translation white-wash the killings?
“撒 母 耳 記 上 6:19 (Chinese Union Version (Traditional))
19 耶 和 華 因 伯 示 麥 人 擅 觀 他 的 約 櫃 ， 就 擊 殺 了 他 們 七 十 人 ； 那 時 有 五 萬 人 在 那 裡 （ 原文 是 七 十 人 加 五 萬 人 ） 。 百 姓 因 耶 和 華 大 大 擊 殺 他 們 ， 就 哀 哭 了 。”
In the Chinese translation, it says that 70 was killed while 50 thousands were there.
Nonetheless, killing a lesser number of 70 does not make one a good and just god. Thinking otherwise reeks of the Stockholm syndrome.
July 30, 2009 at 6:45 pm |
@Ellen, again, checking biblegateway shows that the disparity comes from the different translations.
KJV bible shows
“11And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down *great stones* from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with *hailstones* than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.”
New American Standard Version
” 11As they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth-horon, (D)the LORD threw *large stones* from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died from the *hailstones* than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword.”
New International Version seem to have ‘corrected’ the translation with a common ‘historical testimony’
” 11 As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.”
This raises an interesting point. If an eyewitness were called to court, and over the trial, continually changes his testimony to suit new evidences found, how would the judge, jury or public view his integrity as eye witness?
How can we allow a book that is claimed to be the unshakably holy truth, be revised and compiled by man simply because they are in power to do so. If so, then the god which Christians worship is the popularity god of power. Because it seems like whoever comes into power, can manipulate the interpretation or even the text itself to suit whatever agenda needed.