In a few of my recent posts, numerous Christians have argued that most of the Old Testament should be viewed as allegories or metaphors and not factual historical accounts. And the Bible has inaccuracies because it was written by men that occasionally misquoted god.
Jesus would strongly disagree with you.
During his recorded ministry, Jesus quoted 24 different Old Testament verses.
Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired as he referred to the scriptures as “the commandment of God” (Matthew 15:3) and as the “word of god” (Matthew 15:6). He also taught Christians the infallibility of scripture when he stated, “Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished” (Matthew 5:18) and “the Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35).
Jesus continually quoted Old Testament scripture to teach his disciples and criticize the Jewish pharmacies. He ridiculed, “Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?” (Matthew 22:31) and “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?” (Mark 12:24). He also used stories from the Old Testament to teach, “Have you not read what David did?” (Matthew 12:3).
Jesus also confirmed many of the historical accounts in the Old Testament, such as the destruction of Sodom and the death of Lot’s wife (Matthew 10:15, Luke 17:29-32), the murder of Abel by his brother Cain (Luke 11:51), the calling of Moses (Mark 12:26), the manna given in the wilderness (John 6:31-51), and the judgment upon Tyre, Sidon and Sodom (Mathew 11:20-24).
Jesus even confirmed the most often rejected Old Testament stories, such as the creation story of Adam and Eve (Matthew 19:4-6), Noah and the great flood (Matthew 24:37-39), and the three days of Jonah spent in the belly of a great fish (Matthew 12:40).
If Christians have to discount Old Testament stories to believe in Jesus, then they are not Christian. If Jesus believed it, Christians must believe it. Otherwise how can you honestly call yourself a follower of Jesus? He would say to you, “are you not in error because you deny the Scriptures?”
Tags: Allegory, Bible, Credible, Jesus, Old Testament, Reject, Scripture
March 12, 2009 at 4:08 pm |
Religion is a real mind bender. Either you must believe total absurdities (like creationism), or you have to make up reasons why you believe some parts of the religion but not other parts.
March 12, 2009 at 4:28 pm |
Thank you for making the observation that Jesus believed the entire Tanakh (Old Testament scriptures). As followers of Jesus, Christians should likewise acknowledge the Tanakh’s validity and accuracy, as I do. Christianity should never be lived like a trip to the grocery store, picking and choosing only what looks good or is popular. The Bible stands or falls as a unit. I choose to believe it stands as the word of God.
March 12, 2009 at 4:55 pm |
Out of curiosity, Rob, do you believe that people should be stoned to death for violations of the majority of the ten commandments?
And, BEattitude, excellent compilation that should come in handy for any biblical debates.
March 12, 2009 at 6:17 pm |
“. . . He that is without sin among you, cast the first stone.”
Seems like Jesus was not about to stone anyone for violating the ten commandments.
Jesus also rebuked the priests and pharisees for their rigid interpretations of the law, and their refusal to violate the law to help their fellow man.
Remember, there is no condemnation in Christ.
March 12, 2009 at 6:53 pm |
Aestiva’s response is perfect. Wish I had said it. Jesus came to remove the curse of the Law which is death. Forgiveness of sins is what He’s all about.
March 12, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Jesus did not come to remove the curse of the law:
Matthew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Go ahead and ignore the law if you want to be called “least in the kingdom of heaven”.
March 12, 2009 at 6:00 pm |
popurls.com // popular today…
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March 12, 2009 at 7:50 pm |
I guess you forgot about Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree”),
March 12, 2009 at 10:49 pm |
Paul wrote Galatians and he had never met Christ. In other words he hijacked and altered Christianity.
He did away with circumcision and dietary laws for an easier conversion of the Greeks. Peter and James were against this, but Peter finally caved in to Paul.
March 13, 2009 at 9:14 am
Paul never met Christ? You may have overlooked the conversation they had in Acts 9:1-6.
March 14, 2009 at 6:38 pm
@ Rob..
That was a light from Heaven, not the physical being Christ.
March 12, 2009 at 6:21 pm |
“Jesus even confirmed the most often rejected Old Testament stories, ”
If you actually read the quotes here, you can see it’s a bit of a stretch of the truth…
I’m not religious, but I don’t like to see the truth stretched either…
March 12, 2009 at 7:52 pm |
I fixed two of the verses that were linked incorrectly. They should seem less of a stretch for you now.
March 12, 2009 at 6:52 pm |
Mostly you cite Matthew — Matthew built on what Mark had laid down and worked in various miracles and “God language” to convince the Jews that this is their messiah. The Jews would never be comfortable with someone who didn’t fit prophecy and didn’t live a life that they expected.
Now, having said all that, Jesus was definitely a religious man. But keep in mind that his family basically kicked him out because he was talking crazy and heretical. This is important because it shows that he really didn’t believe in most of the old scriptures and needed people to understand that he represented a new path.
March 12, 2009 at 7:19 pm |
Nathaniel, if you’d rather have quotes from Luke regarding Jesus’ belief in the Old Testament, try Luke 16:17; 20:37; 24:27. Or from John 3:14; 5:46; 6:32; 8:56. Really, all the gospel writers show Jesus as the promised Messiah, and as one who believed in the entire Tanakh.
March 12, 2009 at 7:24 pm |
If you read a book called “The Pegan Christ” you will see that the story of Jesus’ life is patched together from earlier Egyptian pegan religions.
Jesus didn’t actually exist, so you are free to make up whatever you want about him, including what he beleived about the Old Testament, his favorite colour and favorite food.
March 13, 2009 at 12:56 pm |
You cannot deny the existence of Christ. It is an historical fact, documented by numerous historians, that he lived. You may not believe that he is the Messiah, or a prophet, but he did actually exist.
March 13, 2009 at 3:47 pm |
Look… There is no concrete or even close to concrete historical proof of Christ’s existence. The best that there is is a reference some 200 years after the fact to the FOLLOWERS of Christ, by Josephus. The only documentation we have suggesting that there was a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was killed by the Romans in Jerusalem is the fact that a very large number of “Christ”s appear on Roman execution records from Jerusalem (see, Christ was a name adopted by a number of radical preachers who were trying to sell themselves as a reform to the ossified and ineffective system of religious governance in Israel at the time).
But that’s okay: there doesn’t NEED to be proof. That’s what faith is for (well, that and a proper understanding of allegory and human fallibility, but we’ll take it one step at a time)! You don’t have to have proof, you can believe.
I’ll make you a deal: you stay out of my facts, I’ll stay out of your faith, and everyone can be happy, okay?
March 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm |
what is the historical authenticity of The Pegan christ??….The new testaments were written closer to the time of Jesus so they are more authenticate …
March 12, 2009 at 8:11 pm |
So the Bible is the inerrant word of God because the Bible says so. That’s a revelation.
It’s a good thing that the people who wrote the original texts, which we don’t have, decades after the fact and without any eyewitness experience to what Jesus supposedly said couldn’t possibly be mistaken. The logic here is built in nothing.
March 12, 2009 at 8:21 pm |
So you’re saying the bible is nothing more than myths and heresy? Then you’re right, the logic here is built in nothing.
March 12, 2009 at 8:33 pm |
“He also taught Christians the infallibility of scripture when he stated, “Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished” (Matthew 5:18) ”
Actually, I don’t see the need to interpret this statement as promoting the infallibility of scripture. Firstly, the LAW is only part of the Old Testament (the Law and the Prophets, and I am not sure where the wisdom literature (proverbs and ecclesiaties) and poetry (song of solomon) fit. The LAW doesn’t include the creation story, or the Flood, if I understand this correctly.
So, is we only talk about the LAW as infallible, what exactly does ‘smallest letter or stroke pass away from the law” mean? I could imagine alternate interpretations of this. Off the cuff, how about it meaning “the LAW is in-force until I fufill and supersede it”? When Jesus talks about a brush stroke, that sounds like hyperbole to make a point.
Now, I am not saying that I am correct on this, BUT, I want those who believe in the God of the Bible to consider alternative interpretations of the Scripture that they cherish. History is littered with examples of christians following a generally held interpretation that later generations (us) find laughable.
March 13, 2009 at 8:53 am |
To the law and to the testimony: if they do not speak according to this word it is because there is no light n them…Isaiah 8:20
March 13, 2009 at 12:24 pm |
You seem to have a basic grasp of the difference between inerrancy & infallibility. But you need to mull over that difference a little more, including how Jews look at it, & including Jews in the era of Roman occupation.
March 13, 2009 at 12:34 pm |
Understand that we Jews have a unique relationship with God, and if we were left alone long enough, would bring huge blessings to the world.
March 13, 2009 at 12:35 pm |
Can you really call yourself a Christian if you don’t even believe the foundational doctrine of your faith (the Bible) is true. Obviously there salvation is between them and God, but if you don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that all that is in it, is in fact, true then I am not sure you can call yourself a Christian.
March 13, 2009 at 12:42 pm |
Regarding the relationship between the Law and Grace, I have this to say first. Jesus did not come to “abolish” the Law, but to “fulfill” the Law. Paul says, in light of this, that “Love is the fulfillment of the Law.” And this is in line with what Jesus said, when he proclaimed the greatest Commandment, and the second “like unto it,” which I’m sure we all know: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul, and strength;” and “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” So love is the fulfillment of the law. Paul also takes great pains to try and describe our “position” regards to the Law. “We are not *under* the Law, but under Grace.” So the Law still exists, but we are not “under” it. Those who are “under” the law are acting according to Paul’s description of its purpose, saying “the Law was made for lawbreakers.” As to the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, and so forth Galatians 5:17) – Paul writes: “Against such there is no law.” I really believe that as we read Paul’s letters carefully, we realize that it is a matter of personal choice whether we are to abide under the Law, as though still “in” our sins, or under Grace, having been redeemed – or, at the very least, in the process of redemption. Of course, there are those, even among Bible-believing Christians, who will disagree.
March 13, 2009 at 12:44 pm |
Christ fulfilled all the types and shadows contained in the Old Covenant, not one jot or tittle of the law has fallen to the ground because it has all found its fulfilment in Him. He is the true Israel, the second Adam, the Tree of Life, the Word of God, the Son of David, the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world, the Priest, the Prophet, the Judge-hero, the City of Refuge, the King. He opened the Scriptures and showed those on the way to Emmaus how all the Scriptures taught of Him: to understand the Old Testament aright is to understand it as He taught it to those people, as testifying of Him.
March 13, 2009 at 12:54 pm |
I have not read all the previous posts you have made about this topic, so I cannot say anything for certain on this topic since I do not know the previous conversations.
However it was your post TITLE that caught my eye. I would suggest refraining from labeling ALL “Christians” in one group. There is a reason why there are seperate sects in Chrisitanity, just as there are in Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and many other religions around the world. I think claiming that ALL Christians deny the validity of the Old Testement would be an overstatement and unjustifiable.
If you prefer to say that some Christians do not believe in all, or most, or some, of the Old Testement that may be true, but the same can be said for other religions as well.
Thus, before I start judging you based on you being a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu; based on what Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus ‘should’ or ‘supposedly’ believe in, I would appreciate a refrain from the all inclusive nature of your topic.
Just a Friendly Thought for the Day.
March 13, 2009 at 1:01 pm |
I agree with you. Only I didn’t use the word “ALL” in the title. It’s fairly obvious I wasn’t speaking about every Christian person on earth. There are numerous fundamental Christians that believe the Bible is divinely inspired and don’t question any of it.
March 13, 2009 at 1:01 pm |
This is the most ridiculous post. Why do you feel compelled to try and tear down the religion of others? You attempt to cite scripture as if you are proving some profound point, but you don’t.
March 13, 2009 at 1:04 pm |
I had been a lifelong Evangelical Christian until I realized what you are saying. At that point I started following the Old Testament as literally as possible. My wife and I started attending a Messianic Jewish group. In time, I felt conflict between the OT and NT, as many have since the beginning. My solution was to give the OT precedence, since it was the Bible of Yeshua (Jesus). I dropped all Christian holidays such as Christmas, Easter, etc. and adopted all the biblical holy days. I could see that Christianity was full of paganism. Eventually, the notion of Yeshua as God had to be dropped. The OT is clear that God is NOT a man.
Eventually, I recognized that even the OT was full of previous religions and views from surrounding peoples depending on when the particular book was written.
Eventually the OT did not add up for me. God’s jealously, wrath, violence, genocide, ect. sounded more like the cries of a people, not a true loving, all-powerful God.
In particular,
Psalms 137.9: Happy shall they be who seize your infants and dashes them against the rocks!
No matter what commentary I’ve read on this verse, none satisfy my reason or sense of morality. They all do some sort of smoothing over. I discussed this with a Rabbi at our local Conservative synagogue, he simply said that he felt that some verses were politically motivated, not really God.
The list goes on. The fact is, the NT is an improvement for anyone with eyes to see and a heart to feel compassion.
In the end, my wife and I dropped Messianic Judaism and Christianity. I still believe in doing what is good in the Bible and enjoy reading some of it. However, the Bible is not the only (or even the best) reference for moral behavior.
I started exploring other religious traditions and have found Buddhism to be vastly superior. This was a religion I once though was dark and evil, but out of complete ignorance. I had a friend whose mother was Buddhist and when she was dying our church was busy praying for her and the pastor converted her. We wanted to “save he soul.” We thought it was a great success and fully expected to see her in heaven one day.
Anyway, for those discontent with Christianity, forced beliefs that seem implausible, lack of real change, etc. I highly suggest Buddhism. Zen and Theravadan are both minimal in religious dogma and superstition.
Please forgive me if this is seen as an attack on anyone’s views. Please stay in the path right for you, I just wanted to share my journey and help anyone who may be by the Path I’ve described.
March 13, 2009 at 1:05 pm |
hey, i’m not going to get in on the debate.
i see the value in asking questions and in conversing about weighty issues.
this is one of those, and i don’t think there’s anything wrong with healthy discussion.
however, far too often, christians forget that jesus told us that the world would know us by our love for one another – and our love for him. not because we got our theology right (though, there is something to be said for knowing your theology). just remember that, at the end of the day, you are saved because jesus forgave you, and did what you could not do – not because you were right in an online discussion.
so, put down your pride, and walk humbly – whether here online, or at a coffeeshop talking with someone who you don’t see eye-to-eye with.
jesus – nothing else.
love.
- nate.
———————————-
you may (now) go ahead, and rip this comment to pieces – tell me why i’m wrong – accuse me of being a hippie who wears dresses and sings songs – pick apart my verbiage and/or writing style – and just generally tell me that i’m wrong. i don’t care. GO!
March 13, 2009 at 1:15 pm |
Rob wrote: “Christianity should never be lived like a trip to the grocery store, picking and choosing only what looks good or is popular.”
So – was the earth created in 7 days 6000 years ago? Since Jesus was ok with slavery, is slavery ok? Should gays be killed (Romans 1:26-32)?
March 14, 2009 at 5:09 pm |
I do believe in a six-day creation and a young earth of approximately 6000 years. I know of no scripture that shows that Jesus was ok with slavery. Homosexuality is sin but I don’t have any call from God to judge homosexuals. I do like what Nate posted above. It’s all about Jesus.
March 14, 2009 at 7:03 pm |
And homosexuality is a sin according to Leviticus, right?
Leviticus also outlines dietary laws. Do you adhere to that?
March 14, 2009 at 7:57 pm |
Young earth is where you lose me. Geology and astronomy are just two of the sciences that demonstrate the age of the earth is in the billions of years. If the earth is only 6000 years old, there would only be a handful of stars in the sky because the light from all the other bajillion stars wouldn’t have had time to reach us yet. Young earth creationism is sheer willful blindness to facts.
As for slavery, it was definitely condoned in the old testament by God. And Jesus never spoke against it. He seemed to accept it: “Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives.” (Matt. 24:46)
Also: “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. (Eph. 6:5-6) ” – which verse was used extensively by Slaveholders in the South to justify themselves.
March 14, 2009 at 9:53 pm
I’m amazed that anyone can rationalize the young earth belief. It’s difficult enough to believe in a god you can’t see, but I don’t understand how you can dispute all of the scientific evidence against a young earth.
March 13, 2009 at 1:18 pm |
Nate wrote: “you may (now) go ahead, and rip this comment to pieces – tell me why i’m wrong – accuse me of being a hippie who wears dresses and sings songs – pick apart my verbiage and/or writing style – and just generally tell me that i’m wrong. i don’t care. GO!”
You sound a little eager there Nate.
March 13, 2009 at 1:32 pm |
you seem a bit eager to make me sound eager there, will.
isn’t tearing other people and their views down what happens in comment sections like these, anyway? i was just simply the inevitable – but think what you will.
March 13, 2009 at 1:37 pm |
well… maybe what I should have said was: your point was just fine on its own. Chill.
March 13, 2009 at 1:41 pm
no worries man!
March 13, 2009 at 1:26 pm |
First of all, Jesus was raised Jewish, so when he speaks of “the scriptures”, this included: the Torah (first five books of the Bible), Nevi’im (the works of the prophets, including Isaiah and Kings, among others), and Kethuvim (the writings, including Psalms, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes).
That is what Jesus learned and studied in the Synagogues. A modern Christian’s definition of Scriptures is very different, and is a result of decisions of members of the early Church. These people decided which stories to canonize, and the Bible, as we know it, was born. There are many books, gospels and stories from oral tradition that did not make “the cut” – for whatever reason.
Decades after his death, Saul came along and made painstaking efforts to try to bridge Judaism with the newly formed “Christian” sects in order to show that Jesus was the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy and, as Jesus is quoted as saying, the fulfillment of the Law. This was not easy to do because the Roman empire was quite large and many early Christians had other spiritual and religious influences around them. In addition, there was no canonized New Testament of accepted stories, nor official proclamations from the heads of the Church.
It was decades after Jesus’ birth before the oral traditions were written down and passed around to become the accepted gospels, letters and books we now know as the New Testament. These were picked and chosen, while others were discarded – some lost forever, some only recently discovered – by the early Church, who, by the third century had become quite organized and established Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy.
Anyone who knows anything about oral tradition knows how easy it is for stories to change over time. This was true then as it is now, so the stories we now come to accept as true – many even believing them to be the inerrant word of God – have been crafted, chosen, transcribed and translated from the oral traditions and memories of Jesus, who died half a century before.
Similarly, the Old Testament – Jewish Scriptures – were written over an even longer period of time, centuries in fact. Moses is attributed to being the author of the Torah (thus, Mosaic Law), and the other books developed from oral traditions and written stories, which the Jews accepted as authoritative. Between the third and first century B.C., most of what we know now as the Old Testament was translated to Greek (named the Septuagint) and the end resulting compilation is pretty much what we now call the Old Testament. Little has changed in the Old Testament since 150 B.C., and I think the O.T. canon was closed some thirty years after Paul wrote his letters.
Putting myself at risk, I would have to say that Jesus’ main point was that the Kingdom of Heaven is within us and that the love of God shines in us and through us, if we accept Him and let Him guide our thoughts and actions. In so doing, Authority is accessible – not in terms of a Priest, Rabbi, Torah or Canon – but inside each and every one of us where He has been born. As Jews often like to celebrate the exterior ritual of things, they also miss the underlying spiritual point. As with Paul’s points regarding the true nature of circumcision: it is not so much an external action of removal of the foreskin of the penis; rather, true circumcision is circumcision of the heart. In Hebrew thought, the heart is the center of man’s being. The hardened heart, one that has turned away from God, needs to have that outside layer cut away.
Tradition is wonderful, but it can be a hindrance. Jesus would say that the only thing with validity is Truth and to seek the Truth with all of our heart, mind and soul. We shouldn’t let conflicting texts, contradictions or inconsistencies of logic get in the way of seeking the experience of God through love and forgiveness.
Who knows, maybe he’d discount BOTH testaments of the Bible, saying, “I never said THAT! I didn’t mean THAT!”
In the end, it is the heart that decides. The only real question should be, “Where does my heart lie?”
March 13, 2009 at 2:10 pm |
You make some great historical points. They are the exact source of my problem with the bible. The bible is the absolute foundation for the Christian religion. The disciples met Jesus face to face to hear his teachings. All we have today is a 2,000-year-old group of compiled books to tell us about his life and teachings.
If the Gospels are nothing more than inaccurate stories written 60+ years after his death, what possible reason would a person have to put their faith in him? If the testimony is inaccurate, why would I believe?
March 13, 2009 at 3:56 pm |
This is a difficult, if not insurmountable problem – I agree.
I think most would say, “This is where faith comes in.” I personally think that such an answer is a little simplistic and ignores the greater emotional and spiritual problem inherent in trying to reconcile these differences. I had a particularly difficult time in college. I attended a private, Free-Methodist school and I went round and round with Christians and their hypocritical attitudes before I realized that many of them were suffering from the problems inherent in Scripture and the conflicting views between the Old and New Testament. To me, Jesus’ message – what survives of it – points to a much different God than that of the Old Testament. His teachings of love, compassion, turning the other cheek clash – sometimes violently – with that of the jealous, hateful, destroyer God of the Old Testament.
Before anyone goes on a tirade, I’m not saying that the God of the New Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament. I’ve been down that road a few times.
Instead, I believe that Jesus’ message was far different than we now know. I think most of this is because of Paul’s work – and whether or not what he did was good or bad for Christianity and the world is a topic for another discussion – and his attempts to graft Christianity onto Judaism.
I also think that Christ’s message was a threat to Judaism, which is another reason why it had to be thoroughly connected to the traditions of Judaism. Matthew, which was written fifty years after Christ’s death,was very thorough in connecting the lineage of Jesus to that of Abraham to show the succession of the line of prophets, culminating in Jesus. This may or may not be historically accurate.
The person of Jesus may or not be historically accurate. Only a couple of historians make mention of the man of Jesus, which is odd given the tremendous miracle work he performed.
Scholars believe that Mathew, Mark and Luke are actually different versions of the same text, which they call the “Q” document. There are books out there which show scriptural parallels between these three and they are very similar in content and structure. John, on the other hand, was obviously influenced by the gnostics and mystery sects prevalent nearer to the life of Jesus than the later Gospels. Much of this writing is contained in the Nag Hammadi library, including the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Truth. A much different version of Jesus is presented in those Gospels, which, interestingly enough, were not included into the Canon by the early Church. Mysteriously enough, they disappeared for nearly two millennia until rediscovered in a cave.
The more one researches the life of Jesus, the history and formation of the Early Church, the more one begins to have questions. It is often believed that questions are good because they challenge one’s faith. I wish most Christians would rise to the challenge and open their eyes to how heavily influenced and controlled Christianity has become since the earliest days of the Church.
Oh, by the way, you’re going to Hell if you don’t have utter faith that what the Church tells you is right and true.
I think Jesus would have a different take today. I think that most professing Christians would be looked upon by Him as the Pharisee.
s
March 13, 2009 at 8:46 pm
You are a very honest about your faith. Being able to work through all of these challenges with Christianity and remain faithful is something I couldn’t do. I felt like I had to remove my brain to continue to believe.
March 14, 2009 at 7:11 am |
[...] Testament, religion, torah by Polycarp While cruising AlphaInventions today, I ran across this post. He starts, In a few of my recent posts, numerous Christians have argued that most of the Old [...]
March 14, 2009 at 7:19 am |
[...] Testament, religion, torah by Polycarp While cruising AlphaInventions today, I ran across this post. He starts, In a few of my recent posts, numerous Christians have argued that most of the Old [...]
March 14, 2009 at 6:31 pm |
[...] Jesus readily quoted Old Testament scripture. How can Christians justify denying its validity? In a few of my recent posts, numerous Christians have argued that most of the Old Testament should be viewed as [...] [...]
April 3, 2009 at 9:51 am |
Just wanted to add that I would highly recommend reading ‘The Story of the Old Testament’ by Alec Motyer if interested in more information about the Scriptures Christ had, and His understanding and fulfillment of them, the distinctions between ceremonial, moral, judicial laws, the abiding function of these laws, what is happening in the Old Covenant etc. It’s a stimulating and profitable read by a scholar on a lay level — whatever one’s views.
November 21, 2009 at 9:28 am |
Hi,
I found your Web Site by Google
And I wish you the best you can get,
the peace of God through Jesus Christ.
Welcome to visit my Site.
Allan Svensson, Sweden
http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/INDEX.HTM
Most people don’t know whom Jesus is. Also many who
profess that they believe in the Bible, deny that Jesus is God.
In Hebr. 1:1-14 it is God Father himself who speaks to his
Son, and calls him God. Verse 8 and 9.
All God’s angels will worship him. (Verse 6). If Jesus is not
God, it would imply that all God’s angels would be guilty
of idolatry when they worship Jesus.
When Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” then
Jesus had no objection. John 20:28. When the disciples
worshipped Jesus, then he received their worship, and he
said nothing against that. Matt. 28:9, 17.
In John 8:24 Jesus says: If you do not believe that I am what
I am, you will die in your sins. (The New English Bible).
In Matt. 19:16-17 Jesus says:
“Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is,
God.” With this Jesus means, If I am good, then I am God.
If you want to do God’s will, then you understand that Jesus’
teaching is from God. John 7:17.
Many bible words prove that Jesus is God
http://www.algonet.se/~allan-sv/BIBLEW.HTM
November 24, 2009 at 3:01 pm |
http://wpis.cal.pl
December 3, 2009 at 12:30 am |
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law” (Mat 5:17)
“The law and the prophets were until John:” (Luke 16:16)
If Jesus really did say “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law” (which is questionable) then he meant that he didn’t need to abolish it, because John already did abolish it. Why reinvent the wheel?
December 3, 2009 at 12:33 am |
I might add, the Mandean book of John the Baptist says in chapter 1, “Woe unto you, all of you priests, for Elisabeth shall bear a child. Woe unto you, Mistress Torah, for Yûhânâ (John) shall be born in Jerusalem.” And in chapter 8, “Yahya (John) continued, saying: Who is my equal? Who is my equal, that thou shouldst look on him and forget me? Before my voice and the voice of my proclamations the Torah disappeared in Jerusalem. Before the voice of my discourse the readers read no more in Jerusalem. The Wantons cease from their lewdness, and the women go not forth to the…”
Partial translation here: http://www.essene.com/B%27nai-Amen/vjohnIndex.htm
It supports the statement in Luke 16:16 that John had already abolished the Torah.
January 5, 2010 at 6:14 am |
yes I belive about what Gretchen says about the bible inside it we will know how Jesus what he done to us.by reading the bible every stanza of the book I relate it to myself because it is true what Jesus give to me.I really appreciate it i have no doubt. Everytime i have a promblem i read the book of the bible im thankful because Jesus share his life to me so the moment im alone i got my power to Jesus I know he will not forget me because he is the one give my wishies.
March 2, 2010 at 11:07 pm |
In the all the examples you listed, what I saw was Jesus using something written in the Old Testament to convey the truth of a point. The mana from Heaven passage for example, God provides for his people. Doesn’t mean the exodus actually happened. I believe Jesus when he refers to the law, because in those cases, that is the law of God. Could it be that, since Jesus was God but also a teacher, that He used such simplistic examples as Cain and Jonah to convey the truth of His message? I believe that He is the Son of the living God, and that God’s TRUE word never contradicts reality. This being the case, it is impossible to accept such things as the exodus a fact because the evidence for its occurrence is completely to the contrary!!! Therefore, I will not make Jesus out to be a liar and conclude that the examples he alluded to were true, but not in the sense that they were historical. He never says that they are (however, I won’t deny that Sodom and Gomorrah might have been actual events, along with Lot’s wife turning to salt). A lot of the OT is historical. It very accurately describes the Babylonian captivity and several other well established historical events as well (I believe in the flood of Noah). However, when Jesus taught, He taught by example. His Parables were true, but they were by no means actual events that took place in history. Many of your examples, such as the Jonah one and the Genesis 1 one are, at the very least, quite unconvincing. I appreciate your devotion to God’s word, but for me, there are some things in the OT that I do not think represent the truth of the Christian God and thus, are not Scripture. I do not worship the book. I worship the Hero of the book. I think when Jesus refers to the Law, he means the Ten Commandments (written by the finger of God Himself) and the two greatest commandments.
March 3, 2010 at 12:20 am |
The Bible is too flawed to be a valid record. Without the validity of scripture, there is no validity to Jesus. You can cherry pick the parts of the Bible you like best, but it isn’t meant to be a la carté. Evidence is completely to the contrary for most of the Bible. It’s fiction with a couple sprinkles of historical data.
Why would God use Jewish folklore to teach people? Does he think we are that simple and stupid?
April 20, 2010 at 9:56 am |
[...] to The BeAttitudes' article Jesus Quoted Old Testament Scripture: How Can Christians Deny It's Validity? for help on the previous portion of this [...]
April 29, 2010 at 12:31 am |
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