There are numerous stories of mentally unstable people claiming, “god had instructed them to commit murder”. There are also many murder cases in which people claim the “devil made them do it”. The Bible only helps justify this defense with the story of Abraham in Genesis 22.
Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.”
Abraham obviously suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, and further proves the conclusion that the entire book of Genesis is nothing more than an evil fairytale. If I ever hear “god’s” voice in my head telling me to murder my son, I’m checking myself into a mental hospital.
Do you think there would be any difference in criminal sentencing between a man giving credit to god for a murder, verses a man giving credit to the devil? Unfortunately the answer would certainly be yes. Especially in the highly religious regions of the U.S.
A religious courtroom jury would certainly have sympathy for someone claiming God instructed them to murder. They would feel sorry for them. But a person who murders by instruction from the devil would not get the same sympathy. They would be viewed as dangerously evil.
My question is what difference does it make? Murder is murder, regardless of what imaginary person tells you to do it. How is hearing the voice of god any less crazy than hearing the voice of any other mythical character?
[reddit]
Tags: Abraham, Bible, Devil, Genesis, God, Isaac, Murder, Schizophrenia
March 31, 2009 at 8:12 am |
It’s not less crazy. The moral is that you have to love god that much, enough to commit murder… of your own progeny. And just think about how cool it would be if he had killed Isaac? Then where would religion have wandered? Ever notice how few people are actually involved with god directly? Just a few stories about a few people. It’s quite possible that all of them were psychotically imbalanced. None of the stories are about anything normal either. They are all far-fetched: talking snakes, burning bushes, floods, parted seas, ethnic cleansing, genocide, plagues, magic tricks, capital punishments, doom and gloom with a promise for a better day. Like an info-mercial on how to look better, feel better, make friends, get a good looking partner… all for just 3 hours effort per week…. oh, but once you’re in the program, any apostasy requires your death by stoning.
The allure of this infomercial is so great that even god’s own ‘chosen’ people can’t stick to the program. It’s like their all powerful god wants them to fuck up so he can punish them. Pretty nice setup… build a universe, wait 14 billion years to tell some desert dwellers how to live. Don’t help them or guide them daily; let them fuck up so you can punish them with plagues and floods and stuff. It’s no fun unless you get to kill millions at a time.
Their god is not around right now, he’s busy working on the 12 steps of his anger management program….
July 29, 2009 at 11:56 am |
“It’s not less crazy. The moral is that you have to love god that much, enough to commit murder… of your own progeny.”
100% of all suicide bombers screaming Jihad slogans would agree with this parable, that killing people, progeny or not, enemy or not, is okay just as long as it is God’s order to do so.
But wait, that’s THEIR God – a false God! The True God, Christ’s Father, never makes a mistake, never asks humans to sin. He certainly won’t ask a human to… oh wait. He just asked Abraham there to SIN!
That must’ve been Satan’s voice, eh. I wonder why God never did errata that. <_<
March 31, 2009 at 9:15 am |
I’m not sure if I misunderstood you, but I don’t believe anyone has sympathy for murderer’s that say a god told them to do it. I’ve seen many cases where the murderer said that god told them to do it, and received no sympathy, and were often capitally punished. I agree with the idea most fables from the bible consist of complete nutjob’s, just not the bit about sympathy.
March 31, 2009 at 11:54 am |
I agree that the capital punishment would not be any different. I’m speaking more to the perspective of society and a jury. Both people are obviously mentally ill, but a religious person would typically see a person claiming the devil’s handiwork as more dangerous.
May 12, 2009 at 10:35 pm |
I think there is a distinction. The guy claiming God told him to do it is nuts, and the guy claiming the devil told him to is evil by choice. If you’re obeying a voice that you yourself identify as the personification of evil, you’re more than just nuts to be sure.
March 31, 2009 at 2:54 pm |
Read Kierkegaard’s take on the tale.
May 12, 2009 at 10:32 pm |
“Do you think there would be any difference in criminal sentencing between a man giving credit to god for a murder, verses a man giving credit to the devil?”
Well, the guy who claims God told him to do it is a better liar at least. Only a total moron would claim the devil told him to. What, is he trying to get the electric chair?
May 12, 2009 at 10:54 pm |
God or the Devil. What difference does it make which imaginary person told you to murder? If Santa told me to murder, would that be better or worse?
July 29, 2009 at 7:55 am |
The flesh is “a mindset or a way of thinking that contradicts the Word of God.” It always operates through reasoning or through questioning that comes out of a heart of unbelief. It’s not a sin to ask God a legitimate question; it’s when you begin to question God’s goodness and ability that you get into trouble. There is no way that we can ever fully understand and comprehend God’s realm. We do not understand that what happens hear is nothing compared to his world. Death, murder, rape, everything bad will seem nothing after we are with him. If you do not believe in him you will have a chance to.
July 29, 2009 at 8:33 am |
Not to nit pick, but you said “there is no way that we can ever fully understand and comprehend [your] God’s realm” and then went on to explain it…. huh? Once you die, death, murder, rape, and everything bad will seem like nothing… this is certain.
“It’s not a sin to ask [your] God legitimate questions” but who is to say what gives a question legitimacy? You? Your bible? The pope? Who?
When you explain what is meant by the phrase ‘the flesh’ I assume that you are trying to help what you believe to be the single most intelligent, most powerful being in this universe or any other explain what he ‘meant to say’ 2000+ years ago. Why is a being who is so powerful in need of help? Why is it that you think such a being needs your help? If such a being fucked it up oh those many years ago, perhaps that is how it was meant to be… confusing so that you can feel smug for understanding it and thinking the rest of us will burn in hell for eternity?
Exactly why is it that your omniscient deity forgot to mention viruses, germs, diseases, and all the things that modern science has ‘figured out’ on it’s own? Why did your deity forget to mention how you are supposed to live in this modern world? Couldn’t he have just said ‘kill’ instead of ’stone to death’? Why is it that you shouldn’t eat pork? These days lettuce and spinach is more deadly than bacon. Where is your bible 2.0?
Your god is dead, and in fact never existed. Your bible was written by men who cannot have understood what the modern world has brought you, and thus cannot have understood what rules to make. The rules in the bible make some healthy contributions to a civil society but your bible is not required to arrive at those rules. Aside from the obviousness of their errors, the Greeks and Romans had the same basic rules without your bible….. meh, it’s more of an afterthought than an original work.
I don’t need to fully understand or comprehend the realm of your god. There is precious little believable evidence that there even exists such a place. Your god left no evidence of his visit… what is there to believe? Your god left as much evidence behind as did the FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. The ONLY evidence you have of your god shows your god to be a vengeful, childish, genocidal, megalomaniac.
I don’t question your god’s goodness or abilities, I outright claim he is non-existent and that you are foolish to believe in such fairy tales. You have NO evidence of the existence of such a being yet tell me not to challenge your assertions. I call bullshit. First, prove your god exists then we have some talking points.
July 29, 2009 at 10:56 am |
If “God’s realm” is impossible to fully understand and comprehend, why would anyone believe words written by men about him? Words that definitively teach God’s laws, prophesies, wrath and descriptions of heaven and hell through parables. Yet you’re telling me man can never comprehend God.
Your entire statement is based in the words of men that thought stars revolved around a flat earth with the heavens above and hell below. How are you so certain of this this realm you are unable to comprehend or even begin to prove exists? You put that much faith into the words of ancient hebrew men?
God is welcome to show up like he did for almost every Bible character. Why would the Apostle Paul get special treatment? The fact is real faith shouldn’t require a person to throw away every ounce of common sense and rational thought.
October 23, 2009 at 5:19 am |
To continue the Abraham story – Just as Abe was about to sacrifice his son Isaac or Ishmail (depending on your version of events) God provided a sheep/goat (again, depending on your version) in place of his son. Once the animal was sacrificed, Abe took a sharp stone & circumcised himself as his covenant with God. Genital mutilation is also common in schizophrenia, that along with hearing voices & delusions of grandeur. Notice how the religeons that advocate genital mutilation as membership to their club do it whilst the child is only a few days old? Why not, when they get to a certain age, say 21, offer the intact boy the chance to climb a mountain, take a sharp stone and ask them to do it themselves, now that would demonstrate your commitment. Incidentally, I wonder how poor Isaac/Ishmail felt after all this blood letting, I would imagine he would be quite traumatised, and I bet poor Abe had a difficult walk off the hill when he had decided it was all over!
November 20, 2009 at 10:26 am |
[...] Schizophrenic Abraham 2009 November 20 by jimgetz Image by BEattitude.com [...]
January 16, 2010 at 9:14 am |
Please
no
Irony
Of the Prophet Ibrahim
Is the prophet of God is right
Religion Islam is the right
January 16, 2010 at 10:31 pm |
It is interesting that Islam doesn’t believe in vicarious sacrifice or a sacrifice that takes the place of the sinner in dying (as orthodox Christianity believes in), yet Abraham ends up sacrificing a ram as a vicarious sacrifice in place of himself and Isaac even in the Islamic version of the story.
January 16, 2010 at 9:50 am |
sizer?
Was that Haiku?
No religion is right. There might be one that is right for you, but not one that is right for all people. That a religion claims to be right for all is probably the biggest hint that it is not right at all.
Simply stating that you know the true god or true religion is not much different than going before the United Nations to proclaim yourself a deity. Both actions would be greeted with the same amount of belief.
Off hand, I’d have to say that proof of a god, any god would require proof of a soul. So start small, prove that we humans have souls. Also prove that animals do not while you are at it. If we have no soul there is no need to worry about what happens after death, only how we behave in this life.
Islam is based on the same deity as several other religions. How can it be right when they are wrong? How did such a powerful being allow his pets to get it so confused and messed up? Oh, did that deity give us free will and choice? Then why do we need a god? Oh yeah, to save our eternal souls…. errmmm where do we keep those again?
If the prophet was born today, when he said he spoke to god he would be put on lithium or other anti-psychotic drugs. Without evidence it’s all just voices in your head. Good luck with that.
January 20, 2010 at 6:49 pm |
Dear Mr Z.
Your words and thoughts are as arrogant as your weak mind, lacking the faith and good principles of god almighty. I believe your understanding of god and his principles are wrong. How could you accuse the creator, of not guiding us human beings to choose from eternally living in heaven or perishing in the depts of hell. The Bible is simply and understandable for us to recognize the rules and good moral teachings which we call the “Word of the Lord”. Its just that many people such as your self are arrogant and ignorant to these simple understandings, which we all know that you simply need scientific evidence to prove that the miraculous miracles of god exist. Yes i understand science cannot prove the existence of god nor of his miracles but the existence of god goes way beyond science, yet we humans cannot or will not ever understand. We could never understand the ways of god almighty only god almighty is able to know and understand. Science can’t even yet approve of human evolution, and why is that? Its simply because god created human beings. You speak blasphemy against our so loving and merciful god that so loved the world that he sent his only son to die for our sins. You talk of false understandings that I believe you fail from the real and respectable understanding of the bible. So I advise you to read the bible to get a better understanding from when WE humans were first created to when our lord will deliver us from this corrupt world that already has your mind consumed and filled with false teachings and blasphemy that have already led you astray. And if you cannot yet read the bible then how could you speak or accuse of false acts?
January 20, 2010 at 7:29 pm |
Once and for all?
Science does ‘approve’ of human evolution. Read the news a bit, would ya? It’s not that I don’t understand Christianity, I was raised that way as a preacher’s son. I don’t speak blasphemy, as there is no god, and you have NO proof that there is except your faith in one. The answers to the origins of humans is not in Genesis. There are MORE questions than answers in Genesis. I probably know more about the Christian bible than you can hope to… I was raised with it day and night. It was on examining what it shows that led me to my current position. Don’t berate me for not having faith in a deity that has not ever shown itself to the world. Don’t even start… the words chosen by Constantine from available fairy tales do not equate to deeds witnessed by living beings.
You, sir, can advise me all you wish to but when you berate me because I do not suffer the same afflictions of thought that you do, you open yourself to criticism. Of that I have plenty. How do you know it was his only son? How do you know your god is loving and merciful? Can you preach to the citizens of Haiti about that? How do you know his only son died? The simple answer is that you do not, you are trusting in the words of men, written long after this ’son’ was supposed to have lived, and codified by a man who sought ultimate power around the world. Yes, that is surely how your god meant for his ‘word’ to be spread, by megalomaniacs and schizophrenics rather than do it himself. I guess being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent does allow time to tell each human individually. No, it must not be so because your deity has left it up to you to tell me how powerful it is. Never mind third string kickers, you are not even on the team and you feel it is your right to explain to me how an all powerful being should be worshiped but can’t be bothered to explain it to me himself? Step away from the punch bowl.
January 20, 2010 at 10:58 pm |
To Mr.Z
These Living beings as of men were gods chosen people, led to follow the instructions god has commanded to them before hand. Thats why they are given the name “Prophets”. Gods chosen people were to have witnessed and Envisioned events that have passed or are yet to come as that is their purpose.That in the lord trusts simply because he himself knows and created that person.But due to your misinterpretation, I Know for a fact and believe that Jesus Christ WAS and IS gods only son, ask why? Its clearly written. But you ask why has’nt god shown himself to the world? Simply because that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. You may believe it or not but only time will tell. Back to Referring to these men that you berate to have schizophrenia, such as abraham, this was one of gods chosen people, as so god does not sin, nor he does command any instructions that lead a person to sin. See you clearly need scientific explanation or Proof that “god” exists simply why? You have not seen God nor of his actions, that is why faith comes through hearing “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”. And so why Has’nt the Lord explain himself to you personally??? Hmm…That is because I believe you do not seek him, You must seeketh to findeth right? And from what I am reading I believe you are not seeking him for what reasons you do not believe in this merciful god for. Yet i Believe that you do not understand and fail to understand but why? Because of these miracles and supernatural events that you believe to not be true and why? Yourself nor the world have not seen these miraculous events take place and NEED such proof that these events are true and must witness but never will because such events have passed.
January 21, 2010 at 9:25 am |
Okay OAFA,
I’ll bite. How do you ‘know’ they are chosen by your deity? Did ‘god’ give you a copy of the list? How do you know? I’m going to assume it is something you read in your bible and not just something you heard at a meeting. As for it being in your bible, where is it in there? Even if it was in there, you can’t know it’s true. That’s right, I’m saying that you cannot know that what is in the bible is true.
As you should know, the early Christian church had many books and many leaders. This was not good enough for Constantine who wanted to rule the world. World domination takes some organization, and in that regard Constantine chose the story books he considered ‘official’ and real. Later, the official church accepted his version and canonized it. Basically this is tantamount to going to a religious library, picking out your favorites and calling it a bible.
You and your ilk tell me that it’s god’s own words. Why did such a powerful creator being require the help of Constantine and others? If your deity is so powerful and his words so true, why are there so many versions of his followers? Surely there can only be one version of truth? Why is your deity so capricious as to allow so many well meaning people to get it wrong? Go ahead, explain that and tell me you’re right because your deity tells you that you are. That would make you as schizophrenic as Abraham. When you speak for your god you remove any need of me thinking that your god is anything more than a thought in your head. If your god truly is an omnipotent, omniscient, all present supernatural being you would not have to be the spokesperson.
It is not I who makes claims of supernatural events and beings. It is not required of me to explain such claims. The burden is on you and your ilk to explain how they know such things to be true and real.
I do not have to seek gravity for it to become evident to me. I do not have to seek your deity. If your deity wants me to submit and worship then your deity can stop being a capricious, contemptible, uncaring, megalomaniac and take a minute or two to explain things to me. If your god has no time for me, I have no time for your god.
Now stop telling me that I have to do something and start finding actual proof that you’re not schizophrenic, as I think you seem to be suffering some mental issues.
Speaking of the past, you have no proof that supernatural events happened, and none are happening now. If your god had time for showing off in the past, why does your god not have time now for miracles and such? Are humans born after christ’s death superior to those born before? Don’t we also need proof of such claims? It’s pretty convenient that all the “evidence” you have of such a deity is historical, and arranged so that we should simply believe it to be true because your bible says it’s true. I say prove it. Prove your claims of supernatural events and beings, don’t just tell me I have to believe. When you are explaining it, stick to facts and provable things. Don’t give us any wild stories that we must take on faith.
Your explanations should include a valid understanding of why I should believe such claims and why the claims of others are invalid. Yes, please explain why Jesus is real and Vishnu is not. Please explain why your sacred text is true and the Koran and others are not. Also find an explanation for why there are so many christian sects if there is only one truth as well as why your version of Christianity is right and others are wrong. Yes, explain all your bs before you tell me to simply accept it as right.
I’m not making wild unprovable claims, there is nothing for me to explain. This blog started out with a thought that this story from your holy text is inspiring to many, but hey… that Abraham guy seems to fit the classic symptoms of schizophrenia. Why don’t you start with that story. Use facts to explain that to us. Facts! Not simply what you have been taught to believe, but facts. Something that can be investigated and validated and verified. If all you have is the story itself, then all you have is a story about a schizophrenic who heard voices and told enough people that it got written down for all to hear about.
Facts. Really, I mean it. Facts that can be verified and validated. None of this ‘I have to seek him out’ crap. If you have no facts would you please then be quiet and go away. I grow weary of listening to unwarranted and unfounded apostolic rhetoric. There is far too much that needs doing in this world to justify you preaching at, instead of helping, your fellow man.
Prophet is a name given to those who claim to have spoken with a supernatural deity or who claim to know the future. Your holy text also claims there are and will be false prophets. So what’s the trick to figuring out which ones are false?
good luck with that
January 21, 2010 at 10:01 am |
How do you know good is good and evil is bad! Lets see your proof on that Mr. Z.
January 22, 2010 at 11:11 pm |
Good and evil is defined by every culture. It is not unique to Christianity. Otherwise the other 70% of the non-Christian earth would live in a state of lawless chaos.
Human beings create laws and moral codes to define what is good and what is evil. The Bible did not invent the concept of morality.
January 21, 2010 at 10:47 am |
Sean,
good, evil, and bad are all fairly subjective classifications of something. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure as they say, making the trash/treasure both good and bad depending on perspective. I can say anything is good and it will always be a subjective evaluation. You can say a thing is evil, and that is a subjective evaluation. It’s not like temperature, there is no thermometer for good and evil.
from the MW dictionary:
evil – : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
good – 1 a (1) : of a favorable character or tendency (2) : bountiful, fertile (3) : handsome, attractive b (1) : suitable, fit (2) : free from injury or disease (3) : not depreciated (4) : commercially sound (5) : that can be relied on (6) : profitable, advantageous c (1) : agreeable, pleasant (2) : salutary, wholesome (3) : amusing, clever d (1) : of a noticeably large size or quantity : considerable (2) : full (3) —used as an intensive e (1) : well-founded, cogent (2) : true (3) : deserving of respect : honorable (4) : legally valid or effectual f (1) : adequate, satisfactory —often used in faint praise (2) : conforming to a standard (3) : choice, discriminating (4) : containing less fat and being less tender than higher grades —used of meat and especially of beef
2 a (1) : virtuous, right, commendable (2) : kind, benevolent b : upper-class c : competent, skillful d (1) : loyal (2) : close e : free from infirmity or sorrow
bad – 1 a : failing to reach an acceptable standard : poor b : unfavorable c : not fresh : spoiled d : not sound : dilapidated
2 a : morally objectionable : evil b : mischievous, disobedient
3 : inadequate or unsuited to a purpose
4 : disagreeable, unpleasant
5 a : injurious, harmful b : serious, severe
6 : incorrect, faulty
7 a : suffering pain or distress b : unhealthy, diseased
8 : sorrowful, sorry
9 a : invalid, void b : not able to be collected
So, to answer your generic question, to me good is what I define as good, and bad to me is what I define as bad. Something judged good is something that is ‘not bad’ and something bad is something that is ‘not good’. Without a common framework of perception the terms are totally subjective.
By your question, you seem to be asking me to prove some kind of moral stance. Ethics is not morality. Both ethics and morality as judged in general by society are roughly agreed upon codices of character or behavior. Morality requires ethics while an ethical person need not have a code of morality, where morality is inextricably linked to religion. If you are asking me to prove something is evil you’re out of luck. That too is subjective. There is nothing to prove, that I can see.
January 21, 2010 at 10:59 am |
oops, the reference to temperature was incomplete. We have a globally and scientifically accepted perspective on temperature in several scales (Centigrade, kelvin, Fahrenheit etc.) We do not have such for morality or even ethics, never mind the amorphous terms ‘good’, ‘bad’, and ‘evil’.