I was planning to write up a detailed story about my Christian life and the recent rejection of my faith. But my goal is not to build a case to prove I believed in God or to demonstrate how good of a Christian I was. I did truly believe in God for most of my life and worshiped and prayed to him daily. I believed he was at work in my life at all times and using me to touch other people’s lives.
So you might be wondering what changed.
The change was a culmination of things that I could no longer ignore. Faith is belief in the unseen and unprovable, but still requires a foundation for that faith. With the countless religions of the world, I began to question why the god of the Bible is more believable than all other gods worshiped on earth. With the mountain of evidence staring me in the face, my faith began to die.
Last fall, I finally moved past guilt and admitted to myself that I no longer believe in Jesus or the god of the Bible. Surprisingly it was a relief. Not because I wanted to run wild and sin freely, but because I no longer felt the weight a Christian carries. The weight of guilt, unworthiness and fear of god’s judgement. I continue to spend my days striving to be a good husband, father and son. I help others in need around me as often as I can. The big difference is I do these things today because it brings me joy, not because I believe it brings an imaginary god joy.
For those wondering, here is a condensed “Top 20 List” of the things that led to my rejection of Christianity.
- God is wrathful, jealous, hateful, and kills nations of people like it is a bodily function. He is certainly not just or “holy” in nature.
- The act of throwing people into infinite torture and punishment for not believing a Jewish guy from 2,000 years ago was God’s son, or unknowingly worshiping the wrong god, is extremely cruel and sadistic.
- The statements, “God works in mysterious ways,” or “It will all make sense in heaven,” are little more than irrational cop outs. This God allows horrible atrocities to be committed against innocent men, women and children every day.
- Bloody animal and human sacrifices are illogical demands by a divine god as payment for petty wrong doings. These actions are no different than the rituals of archaic pagan religions. Not to mention the bizarre ritual of symbolically drinking human blood and eating human flesh.
- If God loves us and wants us to know and believe in him, why be so completely invisible? What is the purpose of being so illusive to those who believe and worship him?
- God never manifests himself or performs miracles as he regularly did for the Israelites in Old Testament stories.
- Prayers are never answered. Certainly not in the way Jesus described. Prayer has absolutely no affect on the world around us.
- Jesus did not fulfill major Old Testament prophesies or even fulfill his own promises and predictions.
- The authors of much of the Bible are unknown. And of these unknown authors, the men who wrote the gospels likely never even met Jesus considering they were written 40-70 years after his death. A far cry from reliable testimony.
- The Bible is repeatedly contradictory with itself, reality, and the laws of morality. Couldn’t God inspire a less poorly written book?
- The Bible is open to interpretation. Everyone interprets it in the way that suits them best or serves their purposes.
- Throughout history, Christians have justified horrific actions by the Bible and its teaching.
- The Bible promotes hate and persecution against women, homosexuals and those who worship other gods or no god at all.
- According to the Bible, nearly 70% percent of the people in the world will burn in hell because they don’t believe Jesus was the son of God.
- The only reason I was a Christian was because I was indoctrinated into the religion as a child as a result of the culture and region of the world in which I was born.
- Christianity has no more rational or factual foundation than any other religion on earth that I openly reject.
- The Christian church is disjointed and can’t even agree with one another.
- Christians are not at all ethically or morally different from non-Christians.
- Today, powerful church leaders steal, lie and molest young children. The church repeatedly attempts to cover up these atrocities, only to reluctantly apologize as a last resort.
- It is absolutely irrational to continue to believe archaic teaching with the amount of knowledge we’ve gained through science and technology. The Bible reads like a book of primitive folklore, not divinely inspired insight into our true reason for existence.
[reddit]
Tags: Agnostic, Archaic, Atheism, Bible, Christianity, Irrational, List, Primitive, Reject, Rejected, Science, Skeptic
May 29, 2009 at 2:57 am |
I am sorry you reached such conclusions. A follow-up post with a study of atheism using your points above would be useful. I would be interested in reading it. And, are you going to critique other religions or just Christianity?
May 29, 2009 at 7:40 am |
Christianity is the only religion I have any authority to critique. I lived 33 years of my life as a believer of Jesus. I’ve rejected all other religions my entire life and would only be able to critique them from an outside perspective.
As far as a follow up post on atheism, I’m not sure what it would entail. I simply do not believe the claims of religion anymore. I’m not sure how else to elaborate. I have no reason to believe there is an “intelligent designer” of the universe, but no one knows with absolute certainty why we are here. But I can say with certainty that the god described in the Bible is much too flawed to be a true god.
May 29, 2009 at 4:45 pm |
I came to the same conclusion as you did in high school. My best friends were born in Iran. Two Iranian brothers became good friends with my brother and myself. I was unable to condemn my friends whose parents lived in a different culture to eternal damnation because they did not believe what wasn’t part of their culture. If someone grows up in a non Christian country it is insanity to think God would punish them with eternal damnation for not believing.
May 30, 2009 at 7:46 am
God does not. I’m speaking as a Catholic and as I was taught in my Christian doctrine. As Catholics, why don’t we ask ourselves, how far do we know our religion? How far do we know God?
May 30, 2009 at 8:26 am
A good point. My experiences with Asian cultures taught me the same thing, and I just couldn’t believe that millions if not billions of people would go to eternal damnation simply because they were in a different culture, and raised in a different religion. Too much of a triumphalist view of the world, so I gave it up for Buddhism instead.
May 30, 2009 at 1:48 pm |
Hey Be. I so wanted to answer most of your top twenty there but I see that with 400+ responses, it’s unlikely that I could say anything that you probably haven’t already read. There are a couple things about your past I’d like to find out about if you’d like to share. I’m the analytical type and I study human nature. I believe I caught some things in your article that were red lights to me that you shouldn’t have ever experienced.
I’d really like to have an in-depth discussion with you that a response to a article just doesn’t facilitate. If you’d like to discuss it, and maybe I can satisfactorily answer at least a couple of your top 20, send me an email at singingcowboy674@aol.com. If you’d like, from there we can actually converse by phone if you’d be so desirous. I’m not the type that’s gonna dog you or insult you. I believe you may be incorrect on a few points but that is most likely related to your experiences. I’m also not gonna try and convince you I’m right and your wrong. I just want to try and answer some of your points from a continuing believer’s standpoint. You do have some valid criticisms on a few of your points, though I don’t believe those could warrant a complete rejection of the faith.
Sorry that I’m not responding in depth on the forum, I just am the type that when it comes to something personal like a belief system, I’d rather actually be talking to you rather than writing stuff the whole world can see.
May 30, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I’m sorry but is it just me or this guy seems to be coercing the author into a hush-hush discussion under disguise of ‘answering some of points from a continuing believer’s standpoint.’
Adam, if you are not the type to let the world read what you’d want to say in private, I tend to believe it’d not be convincing enough to stand a barrage of public questioning.
Of course, the final decision doesn’t rest with me, but faith is something very personal and I don’t think a truly rational guy could continue to ignore the large number of questions that religion can’t answer.
June 1, 2009 at 2:34 am
I agree with Arpit.
May 30, 2009 at 2:45 pm |
First off, its ironic that you decided to drop out of Christianity at the age of 33, just saying. And I applaud you for doing what you’re doing. Faith is a good thing to have, but it shouldn’t dictate your existence.
Good work.
May 30, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I have no wish to judge anyone who isn’t religious, by your statement “faith is a good thing to have, but it shouldn’t dictate your existence” seems nonsensical to me.
If you believe in (for example) Christianity, then you believe that (assuming you take the Bible fairly literally):
God created the world
God created you
Jesus came to earth to die for your sins
You have a job – to tell others about this
There is an afterlife, and our place in it is determined by our accepting Christ in this life.
*If* you believe these, or similar (many other faiths have similarities with these points), then it seems to me that your faith MUST dictate your existence.
Thanks
May 30, 2009 at 10:35 pm
This is just the views of this blogger. My views about christianity is totally different. I am not holy, I am not perfect and God listens to me. Jesus came to help the sinners, not to punish them. I am most creative, when I am closer to God. Definitely, there is the pull of the vices, and the struggle to resist. I have never ever experienced true happiness without Jesus.
Jesus never treats us like slaves. He is the loving father. Since we are his sons and daughters, we have the right to ask for anything. It is our right. “If God is with us, who can be against us”
May 31, 2009 at 9:51 am
“Lucky for you, the Bible teaches exactly how to study. Jesus told us in the parable of the sower. You don’t want to leave God. What you want to do is find the truth and show these people you found a way out of the grave they thought they were digging for you.”
You speak out of both sides of your mouth. First you blame the sowers. Then you blame the ground by your misinterpretation of the “bible”.
May 30, 2009 at 10:05 pm |
It definitely sounds like what you lost was a religion, not a relationship. Believing in the guy from two thousand years ago was never the real crux of it. Infinite torture is a special belief of organized religions based in Catholic, Greek gnostic & evangelical roots. The bible teaches the ultimate reconciliation of all things under the headship of Jesus Christ, the firstborn of creation(Colossians 1;15-20), whose “blood was shed for our sins, and not only ours, but those of the whole worlds also.(1 John 2:2)” The lake of fire is a place reserved for the incorrigibly wicked, and it is not infinite. It is purging fire for cleansing and the word eternal is actually “aeonical” meaning age-lasting. I can’t fault you for leaving the religion you defined- but I don’t think you ever really studied the Bible beyond what someone told you. I would hope perhaps you might leave a little room for the mysteries that will not open up to the religious, and a relationship with the invisible creator who revealed himself and redeemed the whole creation through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus. Grace to you, and peace.
June 1, 2009 at 2:31 am
Liked what you said about him losing his religion and not a relationship.
June 1, 2009 at 10:27 am
beautifuly said.
June 2, 2009 at 10:54 am
According to the bible we are saved through faith not of ourselves it is the gift of God. If you have no faith it is because God has not selected you, that is He has not given you faith. And what does faith save us from? Some pagan hell? No it saves us from sin.
Light has come into the world, but men love darkness because their deeds are evil.
If one truly is given faith by God, that is, if one truly believes that Jesus paid for our sins, than you will be delivered from the bondage of sin. And what is the wage of sin? Is it to burn in the mythical Hell? No the wage of sin is death.
We have all sinned and we shall all die, except those who on the return of Jesus shall be changed in the blink of and eye.
They will be changed into spiritual beings. Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God. Like the seed must fall into the earth and be burried man must die and be burried and be raised an incorruptable Spirt. No living person is “saved”. We are all in the process of being saved. Some will be saved in this age and some in the ages which are to come. Jesus came to save all men especially those that believe. Gods work is not complete until all are saved and “every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”. Than God will be all in all.
June 7, 2009 at 8:32 pm
The majority of people have their lives to go about, and do not have time to study the Bible and discover religion for themselves. Their impressions of the world are formed before adulthood anyway, and at that time kids have only what others told them. From what I’ve read so far, that education is inadequate and destructive–it’s easy to tell a child that he/she will be punished for sins, create guilt, and hate for others. It’s much harder to explain a belief that isn’t self-centered.
The mess we are currently in stems partly from the fact that most mainstream religions indoctrinate children from birth and put in rigid, inflexible rules and beliefs into their heads. When a change comes along, a mind shaped and hardened like that will either reject all that is different, or break and reject what it has been taught.
We all experience this to some extent, and today’s religions certainly do help with the hardening process.
June 7, 2009 at 8:37 pm
The majority of people have their lives to go about, and do not have time to study the Bible and rediscover religion for themselves. Their impressions of the world are formed before adulthood anyway, and at that time kids have only what others told them. From what I’ve read so far, that education is inadequate and destructive–it’s easy to tell a child that he/she will be punished for sins, create guilt, and hate for others. It’s much harder to explain a belief that isn’t self-centered.
The mess we are currently in stems partly from the fact that most mainstream religions indoctrinate children from birth and put in rigid, inflexible rules and beliefs into their heads. When a change comes along, a mind shaped and hardened like that will either reject all that is different, or break and reject what it has been taught.
We all experience this to some extent, and today’s religions certainly do help with the hardening process.
June 7, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Sorry, took so long to post that I clicked submit twice.
June 7, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Sorry, took so long that I clicked submit twice.
May 31, 2009 at 9:05 am |
I can see your point and understand. I get extremely upset seeing the way professed religious leaders present God and His word. We live in a society that claims to know God so well, there is no longer a reason to open the Bible to see what God says.. How many religious leaders are guilty of the sin of denying the Holy Spirit simply by the attitude they carry through life? They make a stand with their fancy $25 college words and say, “I have become like the most high.”
I can see where you are coming from and why you have been mislead. Everyday there are thousands like you taking the same stand for one reason. All of these people have the same complaint in common. When they ask a question they are treated like little children. Worse than children, like animals. Religious leaders take the title of shepherd and think it gives them the right to treat others like an animal.
Test your leaders. Can they show you how to study the word of God? Or do they give you some answer off the top of their head? This is the ultimate sin, denying the Holy Sprit. They are denying a chance for the Spirit to work in you through the word of God. The Spirit does not work through my words, or your words, or their words. The Spirit works through the word of God.
When your leaders give you a Bible study do they give you some church prepared study using a set of prepared texts establishing a preconceived idea? Does their Bible study show you how to find answers on your own or do they want you to fall in line and follow along like a quiet little lamb?
I can understand why you would leave your church and tell your leaders what you think of their form of religion. Based on a number of points you have stated, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt, YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO!!!!!! And they don’t want you to find out. They do not want you to open your Bible and find the truth. I will bet they do not know how to teach a Bible study, therefore they can not teach you, or find the truth themselves.
Lucky for you, the Bible teaches exactly how to study. Jesus told us in the parable of the sower. You don’t want to leave God. What you want to do is find the truth and show these people you found a way out of the grave they thought they were digging for you.
http://hystar.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/parable-of-the-sower-explains-how-to-study-the-bible/
May 31, 2009 at 9:06 am |
hello
you say that you do not believe there i a intelligent creator of this universe. i am curious to find your belief or explanation about how we came into being, or ho it all started ! I read your motives where you said you dindn’t believe in god because and the reasons but what about you after you are going to die? what is your hope in this life? Because you got to agree that there’s need to be something more ! How about a baby you kicking inside his mother’s belly? Huh? How do you explain that ? If you can please leave a reply i woul love o talk about this subject ! Thanks, yoyo
May 31, 2009 at 12:06 pm
kav,, I am a buddhist, undergrad Physics student!!! So, I am not those very into religious person
Many think that other religions are like christian like God created the world, God created you etc etc… But this is so not true in Buddhism!!! Buddha didn’t created the world, Buddha didn’t created you etc. He was a normal human being like us, but he enlightened!!! I speak to a lot non-buddhist and nearly none of them know about this…
May 31, 2009 at 10:43 am |
Hey,
Thanks for the post! One thing I want to add to your argum
June 1, 2009 at 10:36 am |
You claim to have spent 33 years as a “true believer” and yet you state one of the top 20 reasons for abandoning the faith as “the only reason I was a Christian was because I was indoctrinated into the religion as a child as a result of the culture and region of the world in which I was born.”
Indoctrination does equate to faith. Faith comes after, through the process of examining oneself and realizing that one is poor in spirit, the need for a Savior is both recognized and accepted. I see absolutely now evidence in your writing that you ever went through that process.
May 30, 2009 at 8:41 am |
It sounds like your break in Faith has not as much to do with God and Jesus as it does with human beings and the Church they have created. I’m not sure which Christian Faith you belonged to, but the 20 statements you made would be best discussed with a priest or minister who can help you delve deeper into those issues. It is a bit unfair to yourself and to God to turn away from Him without trying to come to a deeper understanding. Faith is a life-long struggle that requires questioning, but not giving up. Always digging to find the deeper meaning. This is what helps us deepen our faith by grappling with it. As a Catholic woman who by no means has all of the answers, it is easy for me to see that your 20 statements are either incorrect statments about Christianity (#1) or come from confusion or misunderstanding of certain concepts and beliefs. Christianity/Catholicism can be as simple or complicated as you want it to be. At it’s simplest, it is about Love. Jesus’ selfless love for us. God’s forgiveness and love for us. And how we must try to be more like Him in striving to love each other. Pure and simple. More complicated concepts such as Mystery or Sacrement are best left alone until you can regrasp the basis of your faith. And remember that even if you turn away from God for a while, He will always be with you and waiting for you to come to Him again.
May 30, 2009 at 11:10 am |
Encouraging someone to discuss their loss or lack of faith with a priest or minister is the same as talking with the owner of a company about why you aren’t their customer.
They have a deeply vested interest in swaying you to their side. Their belief is shored up by yours.
Why discuss something as important and life changing as one’s unburdening from religiosity with someone who has committed themselves to being demonstrably un-objective about it? Its an opportunity for them to exercise some more profound irrationality on you – the same profound irrationality they use to convince themselves every moment of their lives.
You can love those around you (and those that aren’t around you) and strive to be a better person and embrace and create goodness in your presence without so much as ever having witnessed or taken part in a single religious act. You may see that as “God” working through you. I see that as you being a genuinely decent person who seeks joy in bringing it to others.
One thing that has always bothered me is the sin is always yours – to feel guilty about, to ask forgiveness for, etc… The good stuff? That’s “God” working through you. As if you were personally incapable of generating good on your own.
Was there no love or goodness in the world before all of this was *revealed* to us? Really?
Its a big step, but I believe you can make it.
I don’t think BEattitude is confused or misunderstood anything at all here. As a matter of fact, I think some of your statements bolster those made by BEattitude. Case in point… “11. The Bible is open to interpretation. Everyone interprets it in the way that suits them best or serves their purposes.” You said… “Christianity/Catholicism can be as simple or complicated as you want it to be”.
When pressed on the matter, I suspect that your argument will devolve to something along the lines of the statements made in point 3.
I understand. I’ve done it myself. I choose not to anymore.
Take good care. I mean that sincerely.
May 30, 2009 at 4:09 pm |
I’ve only read through a bit of the comments and I’m sure the rest have some really good points. I have been raise “Christian” and I have been currently struggling with much you have mentioned. I would also be open to a personal dialog with you and would invite you to visit my site: http://ethotericthough.wordpress.com/ . Drop me a comment if you’d like to talk more about it.
May 30, 2009 at 4:52 pm |
Faith should not be a struggle. If you can’t continue to believe some ridiculous magical fables that you were taught as a child, there is no motivation to seek council to make yourself believe. Based on that logic, shouldn’t you be trying to convince yourself that the other 2000+ religions in practice today are real too?
I love this post because I moved past Christianity a few years ago for exactly the same reasons discussed in the top 20. If the God of the Bible exists, but requires us to brainwash ourselves to believe in him based on an archaic compilation of fables in order to avoid eternal hell fire, then he is an evil twisted creator indeed.
May 30, 2009 at 2:01 pm |
It’s true.
There is a lot wrong in the world.
So
Please visit.
I need your help.
http://powerintruth.wordpress.com/
May 30, 2009 at 2:07 pm |
I believe the lord always is and shall be the most insane greatest, himpan hampan to believe the flops. I love integrated science and loving laughter just as much as the next guy, but to Free France before you get an idea of An America..!
Just for fun
May 29, 2009 at 5:42 am |
Similar considerations moved me in the same way. The biggest was the realization that I was a Christian only because of the culture that I was born into and that the same was true of all of the other world’s religions, which I never had a problem rejecting.
Churchmouse – There is no such thing as atheism. It is merely a word used to describe the absence of belief in religion. Therefore, it cannot be subjected to the same sort of analysis. Atheism makes no supernatural claims.
May 29, 2009 at 7:48 am |
We are only called Atheists because that is the name society gave us. We are far from an organized belief system with dogma and rituals.
May 29, 2009 at 2:05 pm |
Atheism is simply the belief in no deity or deities. Quite literally, Atheist is ‘A’ (meaning without) ‘theist’ (a believer in a god).
May 29, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I do understand why non-theists are called Atheists, I just see it as unnecessary to categorize it as an organized group.
I don’t believe in Santa Claus, but people don’t call me an Akringle.
May 29, 2009 at 3:12 pm
@theBEattitude:
The “A” is a prefix used on many words that mean’s “not”. Such as “Asexual” or “Asymmetrical”. Symmetrical would be a square. Asymmetrical would be something not Symmetrical.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=an-&db=luna
May 30, 2009 at 7:12 am
Well, people would probably have some term for not believing in Santa Claus if 90% of the population believed in Him until old age, hoping to get there red and green rewards in the afterlife.
May 30, 2009 at 12:25 pm
In maany English words you can see an “A” in front of them which means without/non. This comes from the Greek language
May 30, 2009 at 11:17 pm
See, but the word “theist” is just as broad as “atheist”. Or “polytheist”, for that matter. Nowhere in the definition of “theism” does it specify dogma or rituals or any form of worship at all apart from belief. If we’re going to accept that it’s useful to have words that differentiate people who believe in a single god from people who believe in multiple gods (and, further, the word ‘pantheist’ to differentiate those who believe in all gods), then it naturally seems pretty useful to have a word to differentiate those who believe in no gods. I’m not sure how this is even a point of contention.
May 31, 2009 at 1:02 pm
“I don’t believe in Santa Claus, but people don’t call me an Akringle.”
They don’t call you Akringle because not believing in Santa Claus is insignificant. The reason Atheists get attention and their Christian counterparts is that believing in God is important, because it is real. If it wasn’t real, no one would care. Why do we care so much?
May 29, 2009 at 2:14 pm |
Actually, it’s not the name given to us. It’s just the word that describes us.
The word “Theism” means that one believes in a specific God, or Gods.
“Atheism” mean’s you are not Theistic. So you do not believe in a specific God or Gods.
May 30, 2009 at 1:54 pm |
Im commenting on ur “Top 20″ thing. number 1. God is not jeleous. The bible is giving a demostration on the action that God will do. God will do anything to get his child back. 2. (Commenting on number 4) Your an idiot…God is wanting to see what you will give up for him. And back then…animals were precious. For instance…would you destroy your mac for him? Well….no…your not a christian anymore…right? and where you said, “Not to mention the bizarre ritual of symbolically drinking human blood and eating human flesh.” WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT IN THE BIBLE? oKAY…YOU KNOW WHAT? I DO CARE IF YOU BURN IN HELL…IF YOU KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES…YOU WILL LIVE OUT THE CONSEQUENCES. God is real…your blind with the worlds tricks to sidetrack you until your dead…thats all the devil wants.
June 4, 2009 at 9:29 am
You need professional help. Seriously, either your are under the age of twelve or you REALLY need to seek professional help. Your god likes you to name call?! interesting
July 2, 2009 at 9:23 am
“Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them.”
Sounds like a bizarre ritual of symbolically drinking human blood and eating human flesh to me.
May 30, 2009 at 1:47 pm |
How convenient for atheists to claim their dogma cannot be analyzed! When a man looks at a painting and says there was no painter, or no painter necessary to explain the origin of the painting—that man most surely will be analyzed, as will his arguments. The atheist is akin to a man who, because he has never SEEN the painter, concludes, there was none. That kind of argument is illogical and absurd.
Our Universe and planet are “fine tuned” for life according to scientists of all persuasions. Now then, who did the “tuning”?
May 30, 2009 at 2:50 pm |
Who created God?
May 30, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Man. Duh.
May 31, 2009 at 8:44 am
No one created God. God simply exists. He is not restrained by time – He created time. We cannot conlcude that since we are bound by time all things have a specific beginning and an end therefore God must have a beginning and an end as well. He has always existed and always will exist.
May 31, 2009 at 11:57 am
@ Jacob
Then why should I not say the same thing about the universe and cut out the middle man? It makes just as much sense.
June 2, 2009 at 12:41 am
@ Huh
I love your response. Very well said.
January 18, 2010 at 5:52 pm
These are foolish responses that do not deal with facts, nor what I said. The atheist does not want his beliefs analyzed. I wonder why? Well, not really, knowing that man is every bit as dishonest, sinful and irrational as the Bible tells us–I know why. It is so he can continue his lie with as little tinge of conscience as possible. The atheist does not want the apple-cart of deception overthrown, or he can’t enjoy sin as much as he does if he knows there is a God and a Day of Reckoning.
We know the Universe cannot have always existed, and even Stephen Hawking admits this–the Universe had a beginning. The Atheist has no scientific or plausible explanation for it, only an utterly absurd assertion that a child laughs at–that nothing exploded. Or maybe “something” as small as a period on the end of a sentence exploded into the finely tuned universe and planet we see! And where did this little exploding period come from?
I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND why the atheist does not want his blind faith analyzed, while he pretends to be able to explain the origin of all things with no explanation at all, only a fairy tale unworthy of an thinking, rational human being.
Clearly, logic informs us that WHOEVER could make a Universe as complex, large and wonderful as ours must be MUCH GREATER than His creation. Logic leads us to the thought of God. There is no other rational, honest explanation.
May 30, 2009 at 5:09 pm |
Yes, so rather than turning to the mountains of evidence of billions of years of evolution, we should believe in magic stories that the early humans carved into stone once they progressed past cave painting.
You insist that there has to be a God who “painted” the universe, but that’s an unnecessary addition to the process. The “God of the gaps” was created by early man to explain the unknown, but now that we have gathered evidence to fill those gaps, the God is no longer needed.
May 30, 2009 at 7:37 pm
I think the painter analogy is meant to underline the fact that atheism fails to explain how the universe, reality… all “this stuff” around us came into existence.
The “God of the gaps” is still going strong. Science has not explained everything.
Big bang, you say? But what caused the big bang? Neither atheism nor science provide an answer to that. (neither does Christianity, of course)
The painter analogy is not a defense of Christianity, but it is a defense of “God” if “God” is meant as a metaphor for some incredible force and cause that is beyond our comprehension.
The 20 theses written here are not compelling. Nothing new to read in them.
May 31, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Ostro, get with the program. Understanding how our universe was created (from a symmetry-breaking quantum fluctuation in total nothingness) is under development. Have a look at the books by Victor Strenger [ http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/ ], or if those are too difficult for you, have a look at my own outline, written for high-school students, starting on p.4 of http://zenofzero.net/docs/Awareness.pdf . Similarly, by the way, the “fine-tuning argument” is well known to be bunk: it’s said that our universe is “fine-tuned”, because we’re here; if it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be. Besides, if string theory is found to be right, then there are ~10^500 other “verses” out “there” (in nothingness), some of which would undoubtedly be similarly “fine tuned” for its inhabitant.
June 1, 2009 at 6:51 pm
I’ll have a look at Stenger, but I find it “cute” that you refer me to your own work. Of course, I’d have to refer to “your” outline in order to get “all” the answers… How quaint. The equivalent of saying “This is true because I said so!”
you misconstrue what I say and you appeal to authorities that are only meaningful to you. Are you sure you’re not a Christian? You sure structure your arguments like one.
The painter analogy stands.
June 1, 2009 at 6:58 pm
btw you misspelled the name of your source (I didn’t)
June 2, 2009 at 8:45 am
Ostro:
1. Thank you for catching my spelling error.
2. If you had a blog or a website, then I doubt that you’d describe it as “cute” the way that you’d need to struggle to get readers. Why do you think so many people reference their sites?
3. No, I referred you to my website in part because your silly “god-of-the-gaps” argument (re. the Big Bang) left me with the impression that you’d need a simpler explanation than Stenger’s.
4. No, it’s not equivalent to: “This is true because I said so!” Further, if you’d look at what I wrote at http://zenofzero.net/ , rather then (again) engage in speculation, you’ll see the “authorities” I reference. They include the first principles of electrostatics and thermodynamics, the principle of conservation of momentum, as well as the results of more than a dozen well-known physicists.
5. No: although I’ve been insulted in many ways, no one has been so offensive as to call me a Christian, Muslim, or any other type of thoughtless theist, i.e., those who hold beliefs more strongly than evidence warrants [e.g., see http://zenofzero.net/docs/IiIndoctrinationinIgnorance.pdf ]. If need be, I label myself as a scientific humanist; I leave theism to unscientific anti-humans.
6. I agree: the painter analogy does stand – as still another illustration of the fallacy of arguing by analogy.
May 29, 2009 at 6:34 am |
Good list, mine is very similar and in about the same time frame. For myself I try to figure out what got me to the point of questioning those things in the first place. I think item 7 (the way prayer works) was significant, created cognitive dissonance. Not sure though. Something took place however before I started asking the questions that led to conclusions like you found.
churchmouse’s comments sound disingenuous in both points.
May 29, 2009 at 7:26 am |
“And, are you going to critique other religions or just Christianity?”
He can’t critique other religions in the same way for the simple fact that he was never a member of another religion. (At least I don’t think he was.) (Oh, and I’m assuming he’s a he.)
But if it makes you feel better, other religions are just as wrong as Christianity is. And for almost all the same reasons.
May 30, 2009 at 12:03 pm |
He says he is a husband.
May 29, 2009 at 9:10 am |
[...] must be to abandon beliefs that were once deeply cherished. Here’s a great article detailing 20 very good reasons to abandon Christianity if you haven’t already done so. Here are a few highlights: It is absolutely irrational to [...]
May 29, 2009 at 9:16 am |
It takes a lot of courage to say the unpopular truth. Congratulations on your well-deserved freedom.
If anyone else has any questions please read the The God FAQ.
May 29, 2009 at 9:23 am |
BEattitude,
appreciate your position and have seen the same conclusion made by other former theists for many of the same reasons.
I myself have experienced/experiencing a crisis of faith and have had to ask myself the same questions – I think the difference between me and you is I am still seeking answers and have found some that make sense to me.
Without doubt the spectres of guilt and hell are weak and negative motivations for ‘being good’. Indeed I have found it imperative to rid myself of these things only to realize that this was God’s intention in the first place.
At any rate – enough of my mouth – respect for your vulnerability. Hope we can have further exchanges in the future.
May 29, 2009 at 9:38 am |
I look forward to the discussion.
I think the big difference between many religious skeptics and myself is I’m perfectly okay with the unknown. I am happy to analyze theories and facts that we’ve discovered, but will never be arrogant enough to believe I have it all figured out. Humans become blind in either extreme. By never questioning what others tell us, or never allowing others to question what we think. We all need to be somewhere closer to the middle or we lose sight of reality.
May 31, 2009 at 11:38 pm |
BE,
Im a very open minded person, and love sharing and discussing different thoughts, opinions, faiths, etc. It’s what makes us human, and what makes life itself so rich. I myself am still a christian, and have gone through the questions of “why’s”. I’ve also experienced my pastor loose his unborn daughter at 8 months, but have learned a lot from his experience. We work out our salvation, I’m sure you’ve heard that before. Another way to say it is that we wrestle with God. Wrestle with the “why’s” and “what if’s”. Job is the most known story of this. But the Psalms is another. Israel through out the old testament. They constantly lost faith in God, then gained it again. When the Ark of the Covenant was stolen from the Israelites they thought they had lost God himself.
Needless to say. If your still have an open mind and like reading, a book by the name of ‘Secondhand Jesus’ by Glenn Packiam just came out that talks about the same similarities your post inquires.
Take care,
Sean
May 29, 2009 at 9:55 am |
C Arthur Young — I think you cannot go wrong if you are asking questions honestly. Unfortunately, the specters like hell or guilt or social and relational ostracism can easily keep us from asking questions honestly, no matter where we fall on the spectrum of faith/unbelief. Hope you enjoy your slide on the slippery slope and land on your feet at the bottom, it’s a good ride no matter where you wind up regarding faith.
May 30, 2009 at 2:09 pm |
I can relate to that! I also have struggled w/ the guilt that comes w/ not being able to live up to what is believed to be the “Christian standard,” so to speak. But once I realized that God never intended for me to live in guilt, I began to feel so much freer.
I can’t answer all the questions I have about God, and sometimes the best I can do is come up w/ reasonable speculations. (That’s true for me about everything in life) But, I am ok with not knowing it all, because my knowledge and understanding is limited by my own ability to think, anyway. I admit, though, that a lot of what God has done or that he allows seems “wrong” or inexcusable by individual standards. Those standards, however, vary from person to person — even the ones that seem most common.
Life is a journey, and a “Christian” life no less. Still, it’s good to ask the tough questions, even knowing you may not understand, like, or get all of the answers.
May 29, 2009 at 9:27 am |
Fantastic post and list.
“According to the Bible, nearly 70% percent of the people in the world will burn in hell because they don’t believe Jesus was the son of God.”
This was one of the first deal breakers for me.
May 29, 2009 at 10:13 am |
The most bizarre thing I’ve ever heard is the story of some guy who was really critical of Christianity because of that but was converted after being told by a Christian “I don’t care about all of those non believers in China, right now I’m trying to reach out to YOU”. I’m really curious about what was going on in his mind for that to be possible.
May 30, 2009 at 6:57 pm |
In the back of his mind, he (the Christian) knows/knew that God is striving to be in relationship with his creation. Thus individual relationship is the vehicle which God uses to communicate to his creation, he did it for a little while (Old Testament), then decided to send someone a little closer to mankind, Jesus (New Testament). Which is why he (the Christian) made the statement about the millions in China
Just for your info
May 29, 2009 at 10:17 am |
Happy to hear you’ve made a clean break with Christianity. It’s always good to have one more person on the side of reason and logic instead of superstition.
When I de-converted I went through many of the same reasons you listed above. But it all started when looking at the Bible I realized that there was no way you could divide between what was literal and what was metaphorical. The only way to even guess about each is to use outside resources, and as I did so I eventually realized that things like geological, archeological, and scientific records contradict what the Bible says. So, for example, we know Noah’s flood never happened, or that Adam and Eve existed as actual people and not symbols within a story, in addition to other historic events.
Knowing this eventually forced me to discard the Bible as a reliable source of truth, and caused me to reevaluate many other things in my mind. Atheism came a bit later, after much introspection.
Anyway, great article.
May 29, 2009 at 10:26 am |
I didn’t officially avow the dismissal of my Christian faith until Fall of last year. Like you, it was a culmination of things after a long road of thought and introspection.
May 29, 2009 at 10:19 am |
I heard a good joke about Vegetarians: there are only two things you need to remember, “one, don’t eat meat; and two, shut the fuck up about it.” A similar thing could be said about Atheism. Nobody (and I mean nobody) cares.
May 29, 2009 at 10:27 am |
I heard a good joke about Meat Eaters: there are only two things you need to remember, “one, eat meat; and two, shut the fuck up about it.” A similar thing could be said about Religion. Nobody (and I mean nobody) cares.
May 29, 2009 at 10:38 am |
Exactly.
May 30, 2009 at 2:37 am |
I’m disappointed that Walter compares a lack of faith to vegetarianism.
I’m just as disappointed at the childish comeback by the author.
]: I wish the internet would grow up a little.
May 30, 2009 at 10:08 am
Childish? The guy had it coming. Actually, it was pretty funny. There’s nothing wrong with twisting another person’s argument to throw it back at them. It’s an method of argument where one uses an analogy to disprove another argument. The word childish is a more appropriate term for name calling.
May 30, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Says the one hiding behind the name
May 30, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Funny, if you read through this blog, it is the Christians as a whole whom seem to be doing most of the bashing to the author of this post.
It blows me away that because someone has decided that a particular religion is not for him, that the amount of religious bias, bigotry and prejudice abounds in this.
It is okay to believe in something so strongly but to tell someone they are wrong, who are you all to do so? Its as bad in these post as if he were black in an all white church in the deep south, in the 60s. You all should really be ashamed of yourself, A LOT of you should know more of your facts before you spew such nonsense. And more of you I just feel sorry for. I thought “God” loved everyone, most of you open with how hypocritical he is for having the opinion he does, your content is that of scriptures and quotes and your ending is how you love him but God loves him more. And he is the hypocrite?
This has to be right up there with those whom STILL think there is a terrorist running the USA (because his name is Obama he must be a terrorist)
June 2, 2009 at 12:55 am
@ IrGrl
I can’t speak for the author, but I find that sort of behavior just reaffirms my own opinions about Christianity. I became Agnostic for many of the same reasons the author left Christianity. Seeing Christians get offended, defensive, and a little evangelical, seeing them trying to reconvert the non believer back into the fold just makes me less willing to reconsider Christianity.
May 31, 2009 at 11:54 am |
This comment for the win.
May 29, 2009 at 10:29 am |
I don’t see the word “atheism” anywhere in the original post, that’s not what it is about. Did you read it?
May 29, 2009 at 10:30 am |
I heard a good joke about jerks, “One, spout off to show your ignorance, and two, shut the…” oh, never mind, it doesn’t work…
May 29, 2009 at 11:55 am |
Why am I not surprised that a McCarthy is wanting people he disagrees with to be silent?
May 30, 2009 at 1:29 am |
an astute observation, unikraken.
May 30, 2009 at 2:57 pm |
clearly Walter, if nobody cared than there wouldn’t be so many comments here. This is another failure on the part of a Christian to just look at the facts straight in the face.
May 29, 2009 at 11:11 am |
Underlines why I choose to believe in logic and reason than a book written by sheep herders thousands of years ago.
Also It’s not god that annoys me, It’s his fan club that I can’t stand.
May 29, 2009 at 11:17 am |
“It’s not god that annoys me”
Yeah, it’s hard to be annoyed by something that doesn’t exist. It’s all those crazies trying to claim he does.
May 29, 2009 at 11:53 am |
I’m annoyed by cartoon characters all the time. Yahweh is equivalent and annoys me every time I read the bible.
May 29, 2009 at 1:12 pm |
Yeah, that fan club. I hate how they ask where non-believers get their morals from. They say that to make them think they are better than us, that they have “morals” and “values”.
May 30, 2009 at 1:50 pm |
92 percent of incarcerated people are Christian. 2 percent are atheist.
June 1, 2009 at 11:33 am |
Yep. They need someone to tell them what morals are and how to behave. I never needed that. It was quite easy to work out. Don’t be nasty to other people and animals. Its as simple as that
May 29, 2009 at 1:22 pm |
That reminds me of a great quote by Gandhi:
May 30, 2009 at 7:21 am |
Jesus is the Holy Spirit is God supposedly, so I don’t really see how anyone should say they like Jesus. He is his father, so he ordered all the genocides himself (Himself?)
May 30, 2009 at 1:50 pm
So when we executed a large number of Germans and Italians after World War II, we were guilty of “genocide”?
May 30, 2009 at 3:02 pm
One could question whether providential1611 even knows the Bible since he seems oblivious to the genocides you’re referring to.
May 30, 2009 at 1:33 pm |
Wow, that’s a great quote! I’ll have to share it with my brother.
On a side note: i think I’ll be sending this link his way…he went through a similar experience as you did. I think he may enjoy reading this. I may disagree with some points but it is very well-written.
June 2, 2009 at 1:00 am |
I hadn’t heard that quote before! It’s fantastic. Gandhi was a great man.
May 29, 2009 at 12:05 pm |
Thanks for sharing your life and struggles, theBEattitude.
May 29, 2009 at 1:09 pm |
Item #13 is very true. Religion and culture (which is based on religion) is the first and foremost preacher of sexism in society today. My 12 year old brother came home from school once and gloated about how he learned that “women were treated as objects in the Bible”.
I was also born in a conservative, Christian nation. It sucks to be woman there. Took me 22 years to reach the age of reason.
May 29, 2009 at 1:32 pm |
theBEattitude,
As you said, you came to these conclusions after a long road of introspection and truth seeking. It would be really neat to see a post which detailed some of the answers, or lack thereof, you’ve found in Christianity in regards to these conclusions.
May 29, 2009 at 2:02 pm |
I was a practicing Christian for over 20 years. It wasn’t until recently ( about 4 years ago) i had stopped believing…. There is much more to life than what the bible has to offer. After i had lost my religion, i seem to accept things alot easier than before.. Now i know this may not always be a good thing, it sure is a relief. I am very much happier now then i was back then.
Great article, i wish you a very wonderful and life changing experience similar to mine..
May 29, 2009 at 2:17 pm |
BE,
Your points are compelling to me as a person who was not raised in a church but came to Christianity later in life. I would not classify myself as the “born-again” type, but definitely a believer.
Interestingly, it seems like a lot of your points are a refutation of your brand of religion, the dogma from your church, and how you learned to worship more than refuting faith in general. To be honest, I think I would say the same thing if I were raised the same way.
For me, faith was never evidence-based and it is often confusing and sometimes mysterious. God is much bigger than a book (most fundamentalists practice bibliodolatry more than anything else) or a culture or a period in time.
Were I you, I wouldn’t shut the door on faith because of a lack of understanding or disappointment with human behavior. However, I would definitely continue down the path towards self-awareness and self-enlightenment. There are plenty of churches out there who would agree with you on 15 of your 20 points, you may be surprised what you will find.
Peace and Blessings.
May 29, 2009 at 3:12 pm |
My eyes and mind are wide open. But your point goes exactly to #11 and #17 on this list.
There are so many flavors of Christianity and varied interpretations of scripture you can certainly find a church that tells you what you want to hear. But that isn’t faith or truth, it is simply finding a theology that fits your mold of who god is supposed to be.
May 29, 2009 at 10:24 pm |
Hmmm … I am not sure that faith is a place where one goes looking for certainty. It is where I go to look for peace and progress.
On a philosophical note, my worldview is more influenced by coherentism instead of foundationalism. I don’t believe that there has to be exactly one version of the truth or else all is lost. I try and what is true by observing and trying to fit things into how I see things working. At any given time there probably are inconsistencies in my thinking and actions, and that’s OK. I try to get better, but don’t ever plan on being perfectly logical. Making progress on the journey is the important thing.
To me, it is OK that there are different flavors of religion and different interpretations of scripture. This is because we all are different. We don’t expect everyone to agree uniformly on science or philosophy or politics or art or sports or any other subject. I don’t consider particle physics to be failed because they haven’t figured everything out yet, or because there are different groups who disagree about how the mechanics of the universe works. In fact, I think we are better off because of the debate, and the dialog brings progress (not the other way around). Just people trying to figure things out.
My take is that people and groups don’t have the answers for me, period. Religious organizations are filled with humans, and they fit this mold all too well. They can help you get on your way but ultimately it is up to you. There is no easy way out, unfortunately.
I am glad you are trying to keep yourself open to new experiences. At the same time, realize that the structure and orthodoxies that you were raised with have and will continue to impact your thinking in a profound way. Your methods of thinking and reasoning and even your basic concept of right and wrong were shaped by what sounds like a strict Christian worldview. Even if you renounce the Christian part, what remains is still what was built over the years.
My view of Christianity is simply different than yours, and I am OK with that. Heck, it is different than my pastor and a huge number of the people in my church. Still, I show up on Sunday and teach Sunday School (Middle School — if you want to see someone question authority, talk to an 8th Grader). It doesn’t make one of us right and the other wrong, it makes us both human. The trick is to be able to accept one another’s differences without compromising your own integrity.
Wherever you end up, I wish you the best and hope you find peace.
May 30, 2009 at 1:10 am
It’s called atheism, and there is plenty of peace.
May 30, 2009 at 9:30 am
I am a Christian, born in Indonesia, a country of about 250,000,000 population with about 80-90% are Moslems. Our churches believe we are more than the official report, tho..
We do live with superstition. We see it, and we have found it difficult to explain to the westerners that magic is real till they experienced it themselves.
But we have heard many times westerners like you leaving Christianity. Or, after living in Indonesia for a while, met Indonesian women, they simply converted to be able to marry our women. But we know it’s only on paper.
In Indonesia, if we want to start a church we will have to obtain permissions from a long list of people and community. It’s not easy. When we do get the permission, we will get problem building it. Some people will write protest (and then it turn out later that they are not from the neighbourhood who has the right to complain).
Our churches have been burnt, priests (and their families) were killed..
We have to get security to guard the church during the Christmas service because somebody might put bomb near the church.. yet the security don’t really protect us anyway..
But we don’t fight back. Just continue building the church. Continue our community services. Continue accepting insults. Some of us would get angry, we don’t blame them, yet we continue trying to please our persecutors because we understand why they do those harm to us. We really have to put our pride to the lowest just to build the church here.
The next day after a church was blown on 24 December, people came to the church to continue praying. We just love Christ so much. Yes, we are not afraid of death for being Christians.
However, in our difficulties, we do see miracles.
Our churches continue to grow.
On the other hands. Our Indonesian fellows, who are not Christians, they would consistently pray five times a day. Plus waking up at 2 or 3 am in the morning to do an early morning prayer. To find their God’s acceptance.
Today, a group of people is trying to change our constitution to be based on their religion law. What power do we have to stop it? Just prayer. Do we stop going to church? Do we start wondering if there is God?
Some archeologist shows evidents that they found Noah’s ark.. Yet, not so many Indonesian-Christians have heard about it.
So, some people like my family would skip going out with friends on new year eve because we have to go to church and do a new year prayer at 00:00 with the family.
Do we have burden?
Yeach, I did have burden. But not that kind of burden like questioning why God.. My burden was more on how would I be able to please God? Does God really love me? I looked at my sin (wrongdoing) and it made me difficult to believe that I could just come toward Him and He will give me a hug.
On the other hand, I have read the Bible and I know the teaching real well.. He forgives. But it was difficult to understand how He forgives.
I went through 7 years of self Bible study till I finally got the understanding about love. And it’s really relieving to know that God forgives me, and that I can be me without bothering what others would say about me. Good or bad Christian. I don’t care. I don’t even put my religious view in my facebook page. I just simply put “There is God”. Because my faith in Christ is not about the name of my religion that only give me barriers that I don’t need.
The fact is, I have found the answer: I am a free woman, and God is on my side.
Peace be to you.
May 30, 2009 at 2:09 pm
In the contentment of your plight, have you ever thought that it is not of your belief, but the country’s?
May 30, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Someone who beliefs there is credible evidence for Noah’s ark certainly is carrying a burden.
May 29, 2009 at 2:18 pm |
[...] not god that annoys me, It’s his fan club that I can’t stand.” – via commentary on this post (which is fabulous by the [...]
May 29, 2009 at 2:19 pm |
I pretty much feel the exact same way you do, except i was lucky enough not to grow up in an environment where i was indoctrinated into any of this. So i think it speaks very highly of yourself that you were able to step outside of the box you were put in and able to ask those questions. Sadly, the vast majority of people never do this.
I really dont understand how anyone can believe in the bible and think the god described in the bible is good. Or why anyone thinks a good person who just doesn’t believe in jesus should suffer for eternity, but a serial murderer can get into heaven as long as he believes and is sorry in the end.
Anyhow, very good list. Glad to see there’s one more person in the world doing good things simply because they are good and not because of fear of some punishment or desire of some reward.
May 29, 2009 at 2:33 pm |
Interesting list. Eventually, I think you will move past talking about the inadequacies in Christianity and get down to most salient points. Supernatural/metaphysical ideas are bunk because they cannot be sufficiently proven. By “sufficiently proven” I mean to the best extent that we can prove anything. I usually peev the agnostics with that…but agnosticism is a given because everything cannot be proven 100% that’s life, but we can prove up 99.99999999999999999%. That makes agnostic = being human. Calling anything agnostic is redundant and unnecessary.
Sorry off on a tangent…I am happy to see that you were able to see the absurdity of Christianity and it has taken that nonsense out of your life..kudos to you.
All the best
May 30, 2009 at 1:54 pm |
many atheists really don’t like the notion of agnostics. i, however, don’t like the certitude of atheism. i’m sure there’s nothing out there, but i don’t know and neither do you.
furthermore, i hate the idea that we have decide what we believe. i like the agnostic mantra: we don’t know and we don’t care. who gives a shit? let’s just have a beer and be happy we aren’t in some crazy cult.
May 30, 2009 at 2:44 pm |
This seems to be a misinterpretation of what atheism is.
The concept of a god is a claim, like any other claim, such as the claim that I have a red car. It is up to the person making the claim to put forth arguments and evidence to prove the claim. In these cases, it is up to the theist to put forth arguments and evidence that a god exists, and it is up to me to provide evidence that I indeed have a red car.
An atheist is a person who is not convinced by the arguments and evidence for the claim that there is a god.
It is not that we know adamantly that there is no god. It is more along the lines that we have yet to be sufficiently convinced that a god exists. A claim that remains unproven is false by default until it can be proved.
Thus, until I am presented with evidence that a god exists, I remain an atheist. If I am sufficiently convinced that there is a god somehow, I will become a theist. It is as simple as that.
May 30, 2009 at 5:11 pm
You say what I think is a misinterpretation, which implies only your interpretation is correct. Again, with the certitude.
I’m a free thinker and we have this atheist vs. agnostic discussion all the time. Let me just say that we have different interpretations.
In my opinion, atheism means no god. One believes there is “no god.”
Agnostic means no knowledge. If you are without knowledge of god, which I am, you are agnostic.
They are not mutually exclusive – but I do not think atheism includes agnosticism or the other way around. Either way, I’m an atheist-leaning agnostic or non-believer or non-theist or whatever.
we really do get caught up in labels.
May 30, 2009 at 7:49 pm
This is an interesting piece of sophism. If one were to follow your argument to its real conclusion, then people’s convictions would be polarized into a theist/atheist black and white. There would be no such thing as an agnostic.
Earlier in this thread, RtPt made the point that “agnostics are redundant” because “being agnostic = being human”. I think what s/he was trying to say is that there is no such thing as absolute certainty of anything. Perhaps the only difference between an agnostic and an atheist is that the former acknowledges this uncertainty and the later concludes that there are no grounds for believing in god.
It’s an important difference. If uncertainty is effectively everyone’s state of being, then agnostics are the only honest people in this discussion.
May 30, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Agnosticism is a given, nothing is absolute, so it is redundant to say agnostic unless a person has genuine doubt (“I don’t know if God exists or not”). Of course we cannot prove anything absolutely, but we can prove it up to a point (reasonable proof). We can prove something up to 99.9999999%, that is reasonable proof (or proof) considering our existence/human-ness. So agnosticism only makes sense if someone really doesn’t know. If God doesn’t matter, you don’t care, or doesn’t exist then you are an atheist.
I am sure there are some true agnostics in the world, but probably not many.
Saying we can never know something absolutely is redundant. We would simply put agnostic in front of every belief, theory, or fact. Agnostic Christian, Agnostic Evolutionist, Agnostic Doctor, etc., etc…
If someone thinks that God doesn’t exist = atheist. Most people try to dodge the label atheist because of the stigma that goes along with it…too bad.
May 31, 2009 at 12:41 pm
RpTp says “Agnosticism is a given, nothing is absolute, so it is redundant to say agnostic”
If something is a given, it is not redundant; it is a given.
elsewhere RpTp says “Saying we can never know something absolutely is redundant.”
It is not redundant if it is true (which it is)
Lastly RtPt says “Most people try to dodge the label atheist because of the stigma that goes along with it…too bad.”
I am not aware of the stigma that accompanies atheism. I am not an atheist because I am an agnostic.
I find it curious that atheists take issue with the existence of agnostics. Could it be because–deep down–atheists are in-the-closet agnostics?
May 31, 2009 at 1:02 pm
There is controversy over the definition of atheism that always gets muddled in discussions like this.
A “hard” atheist believes there is no god or diety. i.e., Atheism = belief in NO god or gods.
A “soft” atheist has no belief in a god or diety. i.e., Atheism = NO belief in a god or gods.
The first refers to the lack of god (I believe there is no god), the second to a lack of belief (I don’t have a belief in god). When people argue atheism, they often talk past each other because they haven’t defined their terms.
A great many people like myself fall into both camps, so it doesn’t really become an issue except when splitting hairs in a religious discussion.
May 31, 2009 at 3:06 pm
“If something is a given, it is not redundant; it is a given.”
“It is not redundant if it is true (which it is)…”
It is redundant…as it is not germane to any discussion…hence a given to human experience.
“I am not aware of the stigma that accompanies atheism. I am not an atheist because I am an agnostic.”
You aren’t aware…well that is obvious from your statement. There is a tremendous stigma that goes along with being an atheist. Atheists are the most despised group in America.
“I find it curious that atheists take issue with the existence of agnostics. Could it be because–deep down–atheists are in-the-closet agnostics?”
No issue, agnosticism (for the most part) is an bad argument. Everyone is agnostic to a very insignificant extent, it is being human, not being able to reach an absolute truth about anything…nothing can be perfectly answered. It is a cop-out to say “I cannot know”. You cannot know anything when you use that relativist nonsense. You cannot know absolutely if I exist, you exist, anything or any idea exists. So the answer comes down to the best you can possibly know, that is “truth”.
I was trying to unmuddle the conversation. Don’t believe, doesn’t know, doesn’t care in god(s), supernatural, or metaphysical = atheist. Believe in mumbo jumbo = theist, deist, pantheist, etc.
Weak, strong, explicit, implicit, militant, agnostic… only one type of atheism………………..atheism.
RtPt
May 29, 2009 at 2:39 pm |
Going through the same process at 44. I told my mom just yesterday that I no longer consider myself a Christian. I explained why, but it did not compute – and she is a pretty reasonable person. I really didn’t expect it to either, no matter how well (or thorough) I explained it. If someone I knew gave me the same argument this time last year it would not have computed with me either. She asked “Well! What are you then!” Response “A Human Being like everyone else.”. And the funny thing is, I am enjoying same warm and fuzzy feeling about belonging to all of mankind as I did when I became part of the Christian fellowship as young teen – this may wear off in time though.
And, the Holy Irony of it is that the same part of my thinking (conscience) that I associate with God and “walking in the Holy Spirit” led the way.
The future seems hopeful now. It feels good be able to root for humanity instead of just waiting the Armageddon end game to play out.
May 29, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
It is strange. I thought I would be depressed by my loss of belief in an afterlife. But instead I am much happier because I more greatly appreciate the days I have on this earth.
May 30, 2009 at 12:06 pm |
Same here.
That it will never come again. Is what makes life so sweet. — Emily Dickinson
May 30, 2009 at 1:01 pm |
A Jewish Rebbe, when asked about his views of life after death, explained after a parable that if we spend all our time speculating and thinking about what comes after life, we won’t realize the treasure of the days we are given. And that attitude does permeate Judaism, and gives the false impression that Jews don’t believe in life after death. We do, just feel that it’s necessary to LIVE NOW.
June 2, 2009 at 10:47 am |
This seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I too have been raised the same way and now in my 30’s have begun to question the “version of God” that I have always been taught, but by no means have I concluded there is nothing at all. Everything started somewhere, somehow. Call it God or call it something else. It would be arrogant to think the entire Universe just randomly appeared. If that was true – that really would be magic. So, either way, you have to admit – life is amazing. Personally, I feel this is only the beginning – a place/time to learn and grow as people until the “after-life” which is the next level to perhaps learn/do something different. I don’t think we’ll all be sitting around on clouds in heaven. I think there will always be something greater to do no matter “where” we are.
May 30, 2009 at 2:28 am |
> The future seems hopeful now. It feels good be able to root for humanity instead of just waiting the Armageddon end game to play out.
I can only agree with this. I definitely noticed an increased confidence in the future, that there would be a future, when I left christianity behind.
May 30, 2009 at 1:57 pm |
“Root for “humanity”? Humanity has proven to be self-destructive and evil, no matter WHERE you look. Humanity’s ONLY HOPE is the Lord Jesus Christ. If “humanity” would love Him and follow His teachings, how would the world be then???
May 30, 2009 at 2:53 pm |
Worse. Much, much worse. Thank Charles Darwin that we don’t.
Otherwise, parents would feel completely justified in stoning their children to death when they disobey them. We’d also be Divinely Mandated to murder every single heathen, non-believer, atheist, and person of a different faith walking this earth.
Much better to form our ethics through thought of what is immediately apparent and provable, not superstitions and fairy tales.
May 30, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
“If “humanity” would love Him and follow His teachings, how would the world be then???”
Its funny how your solution does not require God to act, but for humans to solve their own problems by loving Christ and following his teachings.
I have to ask, “If humanity would love/value (the best parts) of itself and follow the golden rule, how would the world be then???”
All I can do is practice this myself, teach my children, and exhort other to do the same.
May 30, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
“If “humanity” would love Him and follow His teachings, how would the world be then???”
Its funny how your solution does not require God to act, but for humans to solve their own problems by loving Christ and following his teachings.
I have to ask, “If humanity would love/value (the best parts) of itself and follow the golden rule, how would the world be then???”
All I can do is practice this myself, teach my children, and exhort others to do the same.
May 30, 2009 at 3:12 pm |
Well Sweden hasn’t self-destruct yet so I fail to see where you’re getting your erroneous ideas…oh no wait I do know…from religious dogma. How can you say about a man who condones homophobia and slavery that he is worthy of our love?
Human beings have managed to survive without Jesus. Look at other religions. Look at mythologies from the past. Look at Sweden.
May 29, 2009 at 2:41 pm |
Great post. Thanks for sharing.
May 29, 2009 at 2:47 pm |
Do you have a list of unfulfilled prophecies that you mentionned in point 8?
And congratulations on losing your religion. Hopefully the journey forward is one where you’ll enjoy the only life you have to live.
May 29, 2009 at 3:01 pm |
There are several from the Old Testament, but the most important is the false prophesy of Jesus and his prophets of when he would return to judge the earth. I talk in depth about it here:
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/03/19/why-are-we-still-here-didn’t-jesus-promise-armageddon-by-now/
Thank you for your well wishes. I wish you the same as you enjoy the only life you have to live.
May 30, 2009 at 5:49 pm |
See Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, part 3 for a point by point rundown of the alleged OT prophecies allegedly fulfilled in the NT. Many of those alleged prophecies were not even that, they are lines pulled out of context. Paine wrote that over 200 years ago, and yet most Christians today are not aware of this, and have not read their Bibles critically enough to notice the discrepancies.
May 30, 2009 at 5:51 pm |
Another good source on Biblical (and other) prophecies:
Prophecy for Dummies
by (the late) Allan Glenn (aka WinAce)
May 29, 2009 at 3:03 pm |
Some nice quotes to leave in your chat box
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
-Stephen Roberts
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
-Seneca the Younger 4 b.c.- 65 a.d.
“Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions.”
-Blaise Pascal
“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.”
-George Bernard Shaw
“Don’t pray in my school, and I won’t think in your church.”
“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.”
-Gene Roddenberry
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
-Steven Weinberg
“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion.”
-John Adams, 2nd President of the United States
“God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
(“this awful blashpemy” that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi)”
-John Adams, 2nd President of the United States
“Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated.”
-Ulysses S. Grant
“The good part of Christmas is not always Christian — it is generally Pagan; that is to say, human, natural.”
-Robert G. Ingersoll
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
-James Madison
“Men who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.”
-Voltaire
“He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.”
-William Drummond
“We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.”
-H. L. Mencken
“So you really think that God would plant a bunch of bones in the earth to test your faith? Either you’re in denial or God has some serious self-esteem issues.”
-Coral Yoshi
“Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people’s business.”
-Jesse “the body” Ventura
“It ain’t the parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.”
-Mark Twain
“Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes and wishes he was certain of.”
-Mark Twain
“We must conduct research and then accept the results. If they don’t stand up to experimentation, Buddha’s own words must be rejected.”
-Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama, 1988
“I would defend the liberty of consenting adult creationists to practice whatever intellectual perversions they like in the privacy of their own homes; but it is also necessary to protect the young and innocent.”
-Arthur C. Clarke
“Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.”
-Richard Dawkins
“No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means.”
-George Bernard Shaw
“I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I’ve been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn’t have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don’t have the evidence to prove that God doesn’t exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn’t that I don’t want to waste my time.”
-Isaac Asimov
“Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.”
-Isaac Asimov
“The pioneers and missionaries of religion have been the real cause of more trouble and war than all other classes of mankind.”
-Edgar Allan Poe
“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity.”
-Thomas Paine
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of….Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
-Thomas Paine
“The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life.”
-Sigmund Freud
“The idea of God was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind.”
-Sigmund Freud
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
-Albert Einstein
“Thus I came…to a deep religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true….Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience…an attitude which has never left me.”
-Albert Einstein
“What you should say to outsiders is that a Christian has neither more nor less rights in our Association than an atheist. When our platform becomes too narrow for people of all creeds and of no creeds, I myself shall not stand upon it.”
-Susan B. Anthony
May 29, 2009 at 3:15 pm |
I’ve been doing a weekly “Rational thoughts from a religious skeptic” series that will be highlighting many of these quotes. These are some great insights from insightful people.
May 31, 2009 at 1:49 pm |
What an awesome set of quotes!!!
I think this demands a blog post of its own (not on my tech blog, my other one at ikquant.wordpress.com)
May 29, 2009 at 3:17 pm |
wow great post,
i am muslim but only on my documents. since i was child i was wondering why we need to pray five times a day?
why we can’t see the allah?
why allah never answer my prayers?
why allah don’t see people suffering?
why mohammed married many wifes?
why people killed for the name of allah?
this list is goes very long indeed.
i lost my religion long before but i can’t say it openly for many good reasons.
May 30, 2009 at 1:13 am |
I know what you mean.
Take care.
May 30, 2009 at 5:45 am |
1. We can’t see Allah because that would defeat the purpose of faith, belief in the Unseen.
2. Allah does answer the prayers, but sometimes not in the way we want them to be answered. He knows what is better for us, and provides that which is better.
3. He does see people suffering, and there is a reward and forgiveness of sins for people who suffer, and it gives the ones who aren’t suffering an opportunity to show compassion and be rewarded themselves.
4. Mohammed married many wives for political reasons, to bring the tribes close to each other. It was normal in those days to do so. All of his wives except one were divorcees or widows. Only in the modern era that seems strange to us, but like I said, it was normal in those days. He never encouraged polygamy either. The Quran itself discourages it.
5. Everybody has a right to defend their honor, family and religion. Islam allows the right to self-defence. Fighting is the last resort, and peace must be given its chance. Read Surah Anfaal in it’s ENTIRETY, not just chosen verses, and make sure you read the tafseer of it too. http://www.englishtafseer.com
6. Contact me if you want more info.
May Allah SWT guide us all.
May 29, 2009 at 4:08 pm |
Mr. TheBEattitude,
Your “walking away from Christianity” is akin to someone saying, “I’m walking away from Disneyworld–it’s no fun, I didn’t get anything to eat, and I didn’t get to ride anything.”
Someone asks, “Did you go inside Disneyworld?”
You reply, “No–I watched from the outside, but I’m walking away now from the front gate…”
Your comments/reasons show you have little understanding of the Bible and that you were never in Christianity–you only watched or went through the motions (as you confessed to doing (via the “culture”)–that you were not “born from above” (by God Himself).
May I humbly suggest that if you (or any other of the responders) want to see Christianity from the inside, you must go through the one door–humility–understand that your sin has left you in a state of eternal condemnation from God–confess and repent of your sin (i.e. stop willfully sinning)–and walk with God, receiving the forgiveness/redemption that comes ONLY from the sacrifice of God’s only Son on the cross (and therefore being set free from all condemnation)–Who Himself endured the judgment/punishment of God against sinners while on the cross–and, having satisfied the Holy Wrath of the Father against sinners, He gives His righteousness to those who come to the Father through Him, through His shed blood.
May 29, 2009 at 4:39 pm |
Dude, the ‘walk away from sin’ stuff is all PLACEBO. You need to examine the psychological effect of this teaching, how the paradigm you are living in controls you by fear.
I went all out to find God, theres nothing there, its all in your mind. You are emotionally dependent on the dogma, like a childs safety blanket.
May 29, 2009 at 4:59 pm |
Dear Tom,
What you describe as “placebo” are the words of a historical figure (Jesus the Christ) whose life, existence and words (not to mention the Bible as a whole) are all very well documented by both contemporaries of His and Christian and non-Christian historians –friend and foe alike. When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life–no one comes to the Father but through Me” (as well as what He said about the aforementioned “sin issue”)–either He is speaking the truth and you’re a liar–or He is the liar and you are the truth……………by the way–what can YOU put up against the sinless life, miracles and words spoken by Jesus—except your own sinful life?
Either you’re a sinful wretch doomed to eternal destruction (unless you repent), or Jesus the Christ was a lying piece of crap worthy of every punch, pounded nail, spear to His side and spit upon His face that He received……
May 29, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Actually the 3rd choice in your false dilemma is:
c. There was no Jesus of Nazareth, the story was plagarized from earlier stories.
You said some shtick about Jesus being “very well documented”.. I don’t know if you have looked into this very far, but if you have you must be in possession of a strange definition of “very well documented”. Jesus is a myth. Sorry.
May 30, 2009 at 5:22 am
To Brad,
I am a beleiver in Christ myself. I came upon this post to know why the author lost his religion when I find it so peaceful and the foundation of my life. However I dont beleive what you wrote is acceptable.
What right do you have to tell anyone or make them feel they will be condemned, doomed, are sinful…whatever. YOU and NOONE has that right!. That is solely upto God to decide what a mans fate is. And you calling a man who says his personal views on life/religion a LIAR just because he does not believe what you beleive in screams nothing of you being a CHRISTIAN!!!
Its fanatics like you that make christians look bad and create havoc in this world. quoting the bible says nothing about a christian. you must understand what christ taught us. And it was NOT to hound others with negative feelings of hell and damnation.
I love my Christ. I will always be faithful to him. But NEVER will I judge another creature on this earth for I am merely a human being created by the wonders of GOD. Each creature that roams this earth has a right to understand, know, and choose his views and live his life.
People who condemn others for their choices are condemning themselves.
The author on HIS blog states his personal thoughts and he has the sole right to his choices. So let him be.
You are supposed to read it and become more wise on why you choose to stay with your beliefs or reject them.
BE
I hope you find christ again. I beleive since you loved him once, he will call you back. But maybe you need to take this route to truly understand what you are seeking. And maybe you wont find him in CHRISTIANITY but somewhere else that only you will know.
I know I ranted there but I am done. I said my peace.
May 30, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Brad: it is very sad that you think physical torture is an appropriate punishment for telling lies. We are in the 21st century, and your ideas are, quite frankly, archaic and barbarous.
Now, about Jesus H. Christ, lying, what about his (reported) comments about how all this amazing stuff would happen within his generation? Was that a truth?
The Bible also says that Yahweh, aka God the Father, aka Jealous,
a) was incapable of lying.
b) told quite a number of lies.
It’s almost enough to make an intelligent person skeptical as to whether the Bible is an accurate and trustworthy source of information.
June 1, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Maybe you should read this on the “historical figure jesus”
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/A_Silence_That_Screams
May 29, 2009 at 9:53 pm |
Brad–
Please don’t be so arrogant to believe you know me and my life because you’ve read one blog post. I was devoted to God and my faith in Jesus every day and with every breath.
Save your sermon for someone who hasn’t lived it for 33 years.
May 30, 2009 at 1:48 pm |
Actually, don’t save your sermon for someone who isn’t 33 years old. Because brainwashing kids into a certain belief is outright horrible and wrong.
May 30, 2009 at 3:19 pm
agreed.
May 30, 2009 at 2:44 am |
Brad, you must be joking. I respect your need for faith in your life, and I understand that it is just as difficult for us non-believers to really reach someone as deeply religious as you obviously are as it must feel for you to reach people who are so far gone in your perspective. But your paraphrasing of religious dogma and the classic “you killed Jesus” approach to this argument are not going to get you anywhere and quite frankly make you appear quite childish, regardless of the flowery language you use. If you have truly read the book which the vast majority of your religion is based upon, you must notice what a vengeful being that which you worship truly is. You can spout the “only begotten son…..original sin” doctrine until you’re blue in the face, but that whole concept is based on your vengeful god being angry with all of humanity because he told Adam not to eat an apple and he did. Even if evolution were false and Adam was the first man created by god, isn’t that kind of like when you were a little boy and your parents told you not to touch the stove and you wound up getting burnt anyway because you were curious? Is that really something to damn countless people to an eternity in hell for? And another thing. Jesus doesn’t belong to Christians. If you don’t recall, he was a human. He was a Jew. And he is one of the most heavily quoted prophets in the Qur’an. I am not going to argue his existence or the path that his life really took, because quite frankly no one has more to go on than some written accounts mostly in the name of various religions. But he is a philosopher and a role model to many people outside of your faith, sir, including myself, and to make these ridiculous and to be honest appalling assertions of a black and white reality where we either accept Jesus as our savior or literally crucified him ourselves has no place in the humanitarian reality of modern society. Why is it not enough that so many people inside and out of your religion have heard his words, or at least those attributed to him, and are better people because of it? If god and his son are anything like you would have us believe, and want for man to be decent to one another, I should think that they would not be altogether upset at this outcome. What they MAY find offensive, however, are events like the Crusades, the Inquisition, even the Holocaust, the very ideas of which were drawn from a Catholic monk.
This is not coming from some lifelong, soapbox ranting atheist either, sir. I am a former altar server and lector for a Catholic Church, and regularly attended Christian retreats in my younger years, devoting much of my time to a youth group and volunteering countless hours of my time to charities through the church. I understand the good that can come from religion, truly, I do. But I also recognize the evils that can come with it as well, a suggestion that you seem absolutely indignant to, regardless of the validity of the claims. You do not prove your point by arrogantly claiming that you hold the secret of life in the palm of your hand. The article you are responding to is, I believe, quite tastefully presented so as not to offend but merely to explain. Somehow, I do not feel that was your intention when you referred to a great majority of us here below as “sinful wretches”.
May 30, 2009 at 6:18 pm |
Aye, laddie. Nae TRUE Scotsman ever leaves Scotland!
May 29, 2009 at 4:23 pm |
Your post is great. I also was struggling with similar problems in my “Faith”. A few years ago I faced a life changing event, I discovered that I am an Alcoholic. When trying to quit my substance abuse I found that I couldn’t. I went to a meeting and was told that God was the only answer. It rather frustrated me. Right after I was told that I was told to use my own conception of God. The only person who has to define God in my life is me. Amazingly this has worked very well. I have been free from my addictions for nearly 4 years now.
I can’t explain it and don’t really care to. I just know that in my life my definition of the Creator of the Universe has helped me where nobody else could. I am still not a fan of organized religion, I think in many cases it does more harm than good.
Agnostic is a better title than atheist, at least with agnostic you are open to have it proven to you that there is something bigger than you. Atheism requires too much faith in nothing. I have little doubt that there is something bigger than me even if it is something silly.
May 30, 2009 at 6:07 pm |
JIm: there are various definitions of “agnostic” vs. “atheist” floating around. but your notion that atheists have faith is just plain wrong. I am open to convincing evidence for the existence of a Deity. Your inability to supply such evidence does not prove that I am dogmatic.
May 29, 2009 at 4:30 pm |
[...] More here: Losing my religion. Why I recently walked away from Christianity … [...]
May 29, 2009 at 4:31 pm |
VERY WELL WRITTEN! I agree with you so much. I went through so much unhappiness trying to be a “good christian” and over the years have witnessed the worst in human behavior in the name of peoples’ various “christian” beliefs. It took years of therapy to get past all of the guilt that had been heaped on me. Nowadays, I feel my strongest spiritual connection when I am with SUPPORTIVE loved ones, my children, creating art, taking photographs, writing or gardening. I consider myself to be very fortunate.
May 29, 2009 at 4:46 pm |
theBEattitude,
Let me ask you some questions. You say prayer doesn’t work but give me one good reason why you think that God should grant you all of your wishes. Kind of arrogant and narcissitic position to take. Don’t you think?
You say that you base your new found atheistic position on reason and science but yet your first two conclusions #1 and #2 contradict that. What evidence do you have that God sends non-believers to hell? Have you ever witnessed that? And what evidence do you have that God ever killed nations of people? Ahhh, yes, so someone wrote it in a book called the Holy Bible and you think that it has to be true? People make mistakes. Thats something you seem to be unable to understand. The Bible was written by well-meaning people who wrote down their understand of what God was. Certainly there are going to be flaws and misunderstandings.
and #4. So some nutjob in the Bible thought that God wanted us to kill lambs at the altar and so you automatically assume that God requested that? So if an atheists writes a book that mandates people to go on killing sprees does that mean all atheist believe that is the right thing to do? Don’t you see how you are as big of a hypocrite as you claim that everyone else is? Look at your so-called “facts”, they are a bunch of opinions. Why don’t you just admit that you don’t have it all figured out instead of porclaiming that there is no God.
And last, based on historical evidence, #8 is untrue. Jesus did fulfill Daniel’s prophecy, that a man would show up in Jerusalem and proclaim to be the Son of God. And he did it to the very day that Daniel said.
May 29, 2009 at 5:21 pm |
“Why don’t you just admit that you don’t have it all figured out instead of porclaiming that there is no God. ”
Well… Why don’t you just admit that you don’t have it all figured out instead of porclaiming that there IS God?
May 29, 2009 at 10:04 pm |
I didn’t say I was upset because I wanted God to be my personal genie.
But you can’t possibly tell me that prayer has any affect on the world. A few years ago, I sat with a family and prayed for hours and hours around their 5-year-old son who had been hospitalized from meningitis. I also sat and watched that young boy die. Explain to me how these wonderful people deserved this as part of God’s plan.
May 30, 2009 at 1:06 pm |
I would suggest speaking with a psychological counselor to work through experiences like this. It won’t get you anywhere to blame it on something/one you don’t believe in. But there’s probably much more to the story–forgive my lack of insight.
May 30, 2009 at 6:45 pm
I don’t blame the god I do not believe in. I only offer this story as another example of why belief in the god of the Bible makes no rational sense.
May 30, 2009 at 6:13 pm |
Gss: but give me one good reason why you think that God should grant you all of your wishes.
Because the Bible says so.
John 14:13-14 “And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.”
May 29, 2009 at 5:00 pm |
Dear Tom,
What you describe as “placebo” are the words of a historical figure (Jesus the Christ) whose life, existence and words (not to mention the Bible as a whole) are all very well documented by both contemporaries of His and Christian and non-Christian historians –friend and foe alike. When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life–no one comes to the Father but through Me” (as well as what He said about the aforementioned “sin issue”)–either He is speaking the truth and you’re a liar–or He is the liar and you are the truth……………by the way–what can YOU put up against the sinless life, miracles and words spoken by Jesus—except your own sinful life?
Either you’re a sinful wretch doomed to eternal destruction (unless you repent), or Jesus the Christ was a lying piece of crap worthy of every punch, pounded nail, spear to His side and spit upon His face that He received……
May 30, 2009 at 7:54 am |
Matthew 7:1
May 30, 2009 at 2:01 pm |
He was just a good person of which tale tales were created about him overtime. These kinds of things have been documented throughout history. Christianity is hardly the first and only religion that has existed. It’s just another pea in a pod of mythological tales created over time about famous people. It’s like passing a story around a huge circle of people and seeing how it changed when it gets back to you.
May 29, 2009 at 5:17 pm |
Those not with us are against us. – Luke 11:23 NIV
*Skeptics cannot undermine beliefs which require spiritual insight to believe!*
Delicious failure of reasoning. Pause to savor.
Behold the classic logical failure of an “immunizing strategy.” Only a believer can understand another believer’s beliefs. It is a form of begging the question — presupposing without proof the very point at issue.
But, one pays dearly when immunizing a belief from criticism. It cuts off rational communication.
An immunizing strategy amounts to deflecting away every request for reasoning outside the charmed circle of language which only a believer could use.
You cannot respond *rationally* to critics by saying that only those who are with me can understand what I have to say. There must be some starting point in a discourse common to believer and to critic. Otherwise, there’s nothing that can be talked about.
Now you know why the xian “conversion” process has always begun with “absurd” or “paradoxical” claims to induce belief. And to a rational Greek nothing was more conceptually contradictory than a “god on a cross.”
anti-supernaturalist
May 29, 2009 at 5:48 pm |
Dear Mr. Anti-Supernaturalist,
That ignoramus, brutish and otherwise irrational punk named Paul of Tarsus said, ‘The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.”
Have you, Mr. A., studied the bible from a “rational” point of view to see if, 1) There is any proof of their ancient existence, as they claim (there is much proof)…2) Compared the biblical histories against non-religious world histories/figures to see if they jive? (they do)…….3) Have you (rationally) examined the claims (prophecies (which are many) of the bible and seen whether they have proven true (as they foretold)–(they have–and no other “religious” or cultic group can make the same claim/argument with their writings)……..getting back to the meat of all this–Jesus said, “Search the scriptures, for they are they that speak of Me”–have you (rationally) done this?–So–it once again comes down to Jesus–either He is right and therefore is Who He said He is–the Only Son of God–the only way to eternal life with the Father–the only Savior of the World—or, Mr. Anti-Supernatural, YOU are right, Jesus is wrong–your argument is not with me or those like me–it’s with HIM.
King David, I suppose another irrational, wimp-punk, blow-hard, said of the One Who would come after Him from His own loins, “If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.” Mr. A., either wisdom has died with you, or you need to repent of your sin and worship the One “Who has the power to cast your soul into hell” if you don’t………….
May 30, 2009 at 2:53 am |
Kyle here again, Brad.
Actually, I believe there are plenty of “cults” and figures whose predictions have been “claimed” to be true just as yours have. Nostradamus and the Mayans, to name a few. Citing that King David said a savior would come and then someone claimed to be that savior doesn’t make it a fulfilled prophecy. Charles Manson said he was the savior too.
May 29, 2009 at 5:51 pm |
Interesting reading, but most is not is incorrect. How sad. Even your definition of faith is incorrect. If something is proveable then there is certainly no need for faith. Faith is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see. Reading your entry made me rejoice that I am a christian, it makes me want to jump for joy and praise God. Your blog is one of the best arguements for BEING a christian. Keep studying and lose the anger.
May 29, 2009 at 10:17 pm |
My definition of faith is not incorrect. As I say in the post, “Faith is belief in the unseen and unprovable, but still requires a foundation for that faith”.
Faith is believing in the unseen, but you need a foundation to build that faith. The Bible is much to inconsistent and flawed to build that foundation.
May 29, 2009 at 11:05 pm |
I think a lot of people talk about what they hope for, what they believe. But then they get angry and the word IS comes up a lot. He IS this, and this person IS that, so on and so forth. You do realize that those two words convey very different meanings. On one hand, when explaining faith, you say you hope. When you are defending that same faith, you explain with absolute confidence, saying “HE IS this” and “he IS that”. Where is the hope? Very selective. And look at all the anger. I see people here accusing the author of being angry. You read into the words the tone you expect. Be honest with yourself. Are you the one that’s angry?
Some people say this is the age of “snark”. I don’t buy it. I think it’s the age of religious anger and religious defensiveness. All while they claim to be the majority at the same time as they claim to be oppressed and that their “rights” are being taken away by not being allowed to prevent others from having rights. So much anger, so much doublespeak. And yes, a bit of snarkiness about it all from time to time. But mostly what I see is defensive anger. Calling atheists who simply proclaim their atheism publicly of being “evangelists”. Newscasts assuming.. or rather suggesting.. the mere mention of atheists EXISTING could be “offensive” to some.
But some of you will read these words with an angry inner voice. This would not be accurate. I’m so used to this stuff, the anger is long gone. I just hope one person out of a million sees posts like this, articles like this, and takes a moment to decide for themselves exactly HOW MANY things there are in the known universe that require our faith. The list is endless. Why have you chosen this one thing to have faith in, when so many in the world have chosen another thing? Was it perhaps where you were born? If you were born somewhere else, would you be a Buddhist? A Muslim? Once that question rattles around your brain for a while, the only thing I’d ask of you is to be honest with yourself. Forget what everyone here says, forget the arguments and flames. What if you were born somewhere else? Then ask yourself what would happen in your life if you were to “lose your religion” in a public way. Would you lose a job? A wife? Family? Is that in any way fair? Does your God bind you to your faith, or does the threat of what you will lose? Some lose their lives still for denying the local God.
I quit the church I belonged to when I was a child. I had parents who supported me in my choice. I was lucky. I know by reading thousands of stories over the years that I was extremely lucky. Most have gone through years of suffering, loss, separation, abandonment, abuse. So much for the free will thing.
I’ve read stories of a particular church/cult that keeps it’s people hostage, abuses them, separates them from family/friends(and then sues people who mention these things). But I think the kind of abuse an atheist gets from their still-believing family/friends/co-workers/employers has been shown to be much more damaging. And in some cases permanent. I don’t want to convert anyone, ever. The only thing I ask is that when no-one is around, when no-one knows what you’re thinking about, simply be honest with YOURSELF. Then ask yourself if you could speak that honesty out loud to the people who say they love you as well as the people who should love you unconditionally. Then ask yourself if you truly have free will without dire, dreadful consequence.
I wish all here the best.
June 2, 2009 at 2:19 am |
–”I quit the church I belonged to when I was a child. I had parents who supported me in my choice. I was lucky. I know by reading thousands of stories over the years that I was extremely lucky. Most have gone through years of suffering, loss, separation, abandonment, abuse. So much for the free will thing.”–
You are in fact very lucky. While my parents may accept my beliefs (my dad in fact agrees with me while my mother likes to question me sometimes) I cannot ever so much as mention to most of my dad’s family that I do not believe in or follow Christianity. I’d be disowned. My grandfather doesn’t believe Atheists should be allowed to enter a marriage or to have a funeral.
May 29, 2009 at 5:51 pm |
Hey Brad, I don’t need your God or Jesus to be “Sin Free” and i don’t need to “Walk with God” I already did, when I was a child. But I’m not a child anymore and when your grow up you put away those childish ideas of Santa clause and that big white bearded guy in the sky. It seems that your just repeating the same thing you must here in church every Sunday. You have no proof to explain why those religious dogmatic procedures matter or change the experience of belief in religion at all. When i read that you think being a “Correct” Christian means being ““born from above” (by God Himself)” All i can think is What the hell (no pun intended) are you talking about? In fact i think that about most dogma, its just illogical and down right crazy talk. If you truly believe your eating and drinking the skin and blood of a two thousand and nine year old superhero that was born from a virgin (its not like you would want to lie about being pregnant to avoid persecution in those days, couldn’t be that, nope.) Is just plane insanity. I like that their are Christians in the world, When someone tells me they are a christian its like a big billboard that says, hey I am not a critical thinker, I’m into drinking the blood of some dudes only child that was sent down on a suicide mission to rid the earth of sins and whatnot. yeah of course I’m going to listen to someone that believes that, its just so great and dandy isn’t it? Religion is not just wrong, its evil. It teaches us to be satisfied with the answers to life being controlled by Jesus instead of inspiring the search for real quantifiable knowledge of the world around us.
May 29, 2009 at 5:54 pm |
I am a Jesus follower who has been unlearning the religion that I grew up with.
“Surprisingly it was a relief. Not because I wanted to run wild and sin freely, but because I no longer felt the weight ‘Religion’ carries. The weight of guilt, unworthiness and fear of god’s judgement. I continue to spend my days striving to be a good husband, father and son. I help others in need around me as often as I can. The big difference is I do these things today because it brings me joy, not because I believe it brings an imaginary god joy.
I hear your words and just keep searching. Thank you for the conversation!
May 29, 2009 at 6:00 pm |
I’m only seeing one “wimp-punk, blow-hard” here
May 29, 2009 at 6:12 pm |
Dear Mr. Kramer11,
All I can say is “Yada, yada, yada…”. However, you are right about this–you don’t need anything of mine–but you will be held accountable for what you say/think/do about Jesus and what HE SAYS. No offense intended, but your argument shows that you, too, do not have an understanding of the scriptures………You said,
“If you truly believe your eating and drinking the skin and blood of a two thousand and nine year old superhero that was born from a virgin (its not like you would want to lie about being pregnant to avoid persecution in those days, couldn’t be that, nope.) Is just plane insanity.”
I say, “Whhatt??”
But don’t take it personally–no one (including myself) understands the scriptures–unless they have been given understanding from the Holy Spirit (see Paul the Apostle’s previous comment from Corinthians)–none of us has it together–none of us is righteous–no one seeks after (the true) God on His own–He must call you to Him–if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him (His words–not nine)–To all of you–ask God to reveal Himself to you–to forgive you of your sinfulness—your time is shorter than you think…………..
May 30, 2009 at 6:38 pm |
So, by itself, the Bible is worthless. Good to know.
And how does this Holy Spirit work? Is it like channeling?
May 29, 2009 at 6:14 pm |
I am a Christian. I appreciate your post and your ability to question. However, I think that many of these things only address more conservative theologies. For instance, I can definitely appreciate the difficulty with the separation of metaphor from fact. I really can. But it never, ever says in the Bible that people who have never had the chance to become Christian go to hell. That is strictly an inference.
I don’t really like the Old Testament God. He really seems to be a dick. But not liking something is no reason to completely discount it. It is a logical fallacy.
I understand the prophecy part. The problem with any prophecy is that they are almost always cryptic and open to interpretation. So I pretty much agree that the prophecy thing can’t really be a hinge point for the Christian faith.
I can go through and discuss all of your points, and would more than love to carry on this conversation, but I don’t think the Internet is ever a very good medium for conversation so I will cut it short. The final point I would like to make though, is don’t confuse the idea with the institution. AIG has some really jacked up and immoral employees. But you don’t renounce modern business do you? It is much the same thing. I understand where you are coming from, and I just want you to know that there is a movement in more moderate and liberal Christianity to take back the image that Fundamentalists have so well soiled. And their theologies are often very different and much more practical.
I don’t really care if you are an atheist. I see you as a person who is smart enough to cut through a bunch of the crap. That’s awesome. But please don’t renounce everything outright based on one interpretation.
Peace!
May 29, 2009 at 6:43 pm |
Dear Mr. free thinking religious person,
For my last post and FTR, I humbly exhort you to be careful,
“I don’t really like the Old Testament God. He really seems to be a dick.”
You, by mistake, I’m sure, just called Jesus a dick–see Isaiah 6:1-10, then John 12:39-41
May 30, 2009 at 2:39 am |
“I don’t really like the Old Testament God. He really seems to be a dick. But not liking something is no reason to completely discount it. It is a logical fallacy”…..
I suppose this is where, as an atheist, I find the biggest problems with any sort of theistic thinking, whether that be the worship of Yahweh, God, Ganesh, Allah, whoever. Are we talking about something which is, while not tangible, at least believable? If so, how does one choose which god or gods should be worthy of our attention? If the Old Testament God isnt’ your bag, do you believe in Odin? Or Thor? Or are they dismissed, as they are by so many modern day theists, as simple make believe?
I think you can see where this is going.
It seems, from the nature of your post, that you are a liberal theist who has no problem with other religions. What I cannot understand, and probably never will, is how all the gods (Gods?) can co-exist and how we can take the claims and counter claims of each set of worshippers as “gospel”.
It is the irrationality of faith which I can’t buy into.
May 30, 2009 at 5:35 pm |
I actually wrote an essay on the rationality of faith. But that is a matter for another time.
The fact of the matter is is it SEEMS to me that the God of the OT is a dick. I say that because His actions seem dickish. But I do not say that I don’t believe that He is the same as the God of the NT. To stick to any Christian theology that can’t be called Gnostic, there is only the one God right? If that is the case, then I must rationalize God’s apparent behavior as “that is how it was perceived by the writers of the OT.” I can’t honestly say why they wrote what they did, but I am sure that it has a valid point and is an attempt to teach a lesson on the nature of God. Maybe an attempt to show God’s sovereignty over all of creation. I do not think that it is a history book as some people would have it be, but instead written to make certain points. Now-a-days this could be considered something akin to creative non-fiction. Writing to prove a point. Just because I don’t know exactly what it is saying doesn’t make it invalid or irrational. Any more than my lack of comprehension of the French or Chinese make them irrational. I know that this is another problem area for some people, and I can understand why. I have just made the choice to say that it must be me with the imperfect understanding instead of the text with imperfect rationality. I am not calling you irrational or anything, but that is how I see it. For clarification purposes.
May 29, 2009 at 6:21 pm |
Dear Tim,
“Tim Says:
May 29, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Actually the 3rd choice in your false dilemma is:
c. There was no Jesus of Nazareth, the story was plagarized from earlier stories.
You said some shtick about Jesus being “very well documented”.. I don’t know if you have looked into this very far, but if you have you must be in possession of a strange definition of “very well documented”. Jesus is a myth. Sorry.
Tim–Do you live in a dark cave, with nothing save a laptop w/ wifi that someone threw you, along with your daily meal? Do some research, Pal! (that is, if you are sincere)–use that laptop of yours to google “Jesus” or “the Bible” and see if the evidence does not HEAVILY weigh to the contrary of what you stated………..”Search the scriptures, for they are they that speak of Me” (Jesus)
May 29, 2009 at 6:25 pm |
I’m not sure what sect you belong to but i was born and raised Catholic by my parents until the age of 12 when i started to think for myself. I know what it is to feel the church and religion and God and Jesus in my heart and mind, i was a believer. I opened my heart and gave it to Jesus. I knew he was in my life and i believed in it wholeheartedly. Most of Christianity including Catholicism believe in transubstantiation which the definition on Wikipedia says is “the change of the substance of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ” They and you (if you follow the bible and believe like you say) Believe this LITERALLY, You LITERALLY believe you Cannibalizing the body of a two thousand year old zombie. Sure you can call me crazy if i don’t believe in that, I’m sorry Brad, its just all so fake and made up. I wish you could see Christianity with the sober view i do.
May 29, 2009 at 6:55 pm |
Dear Kramer11,
I just posted a note that I said would be my last, but then I saw yours and feel the need to respond. As a guy who also grew up in the catholic church (complete with baptism, confirmation, altar boy, etc.) until I was 18 yrs.old, I can tell you that Catholicism is a “religion” and is a “church”, so called, but it IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. It is a man made religion complete with MANY abominable and unbiblical teachings (such as “transubstantiation”, which is not biblical, nor Mary worship nor the sinlessness of the pope nor the pope being the vicar of Christ, and so much more…………..
Please–grab a Bible, go somewhere alone, and ask God to speak to your heart, to reveal Himself–”If you seek Him with a sincere heart, you will find Him”…………Brad
May 29, 2009 at 11:31 pm |
Thanks Brad,,,,I agree with your comment here, especially when you wrote this and straight to the point:
“pease–grab a Bible, go somewhere alone, and ask God to speak to your heart, to reveal Himself–”If you seek Him with a sincere heart, you will find Him”…………
May 30, 2009 at 3:01 am |
see, what you’re doing here brad is spewing quotes back at people that answer no questions and remind us that you believe in Jesus (thanks for that, by the way, I’d almost forgotten). You seem like an educated man, albeit perhaps in the wrong field, and I should think you would realize that in a rational world, the burden of proof is on those who make the claims, not those who deny them. As a believer in an intangible being such as god, YOU have the burden of convincing us there is a god, not US having the burden of proving you wrong. And you’re not doing a very good job.
May 29, 2009 at 6:28 pm |
You raise some good points. I’m not gonna try to argue with you. It would be silly, but I do want to just point out that number 4 doesn’t quite depict the biblical view of animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifices were never made to pay for people’s sins, though that was (and is) a common misconception. Instead, God demanded animal sacrifices in order to provide a picture of what Christ would do for us on the cross. It was still a bloody ritual, granted, but the symbolism was important.
It’s good that you’ve dug deep and asked important (though often contraversial) questions. All of the things you’ve pointed out have been discussed by both Christians and non-Christians. I would encourage you to read what both sides have to say about these issues. Though I’m not saying it will necessarily change your mind in any way, it should strengthen whatever position you ultimately decide to take. The most objective view is the one that is taken after all other views have been evaluated carefully.
May 29, 2009 at 6:33 pm |
I read all of your points, and I have varying degrees of agreeance with each one individually. I for one understand the Bible, in some ways, completely different from the way you do. Maybe part of your cinicism towards Christianity has more to do with HOW you were taught to understand it rather than understanding it through study. You make the argument that the Bible contradicts itself, but I find it doesn’t. Many verses/passages/chapters/books have to be read in context of those being spoken to (ex: telling one group to rely on faith, and another on works, but understanding why each group needed to hear a different side of the story). That’s just me though. I’m all about religious freedom.
May 29, 2009 at 6:34 pm |
As always, I love your blog and your reasons are a lot of the same reasons I have for doubting my faith in this unseeable God. My ex best friend is an antheist minister and his logic along with your blog has made a lot of sense to me. Just wanted to show my support. Keep up the good work!
May 29, 2009 at 6:34 pm |
I am in complete agreement with you BeAttitude
I see so many flaws and contradictions in many faiths. I live for this life now. I am pleasant and kind, and I give of my time and money to people who need help.
I don’t steal, cheat or lie.. and not because I am afraid of Hell, but because only real jerks steal, cheat and lie.
My first priority is myself, and those I love, but I will not do anything to hurt or jeopardize anyone in order to satisfy my own needs/wants.
I know that when I die, there will be nothing waiting for me, so if I want to do something, I had better do it while I still can.
I don’t have a belief in any religion or god of any kind.
I do support other people’s rights to believe what they like, but frankly, I don’t want to hear about it.
It is nice to know that there are intelligent, kind and honest people, who think along the same lines.
Have a pleasant day,
Jen
May 29, 2009 at 6:37 pm |
I have a very strange (according to my family) view of the bible. I am not a Christian even though I was raised to be one. Never embraced it, never felt comfortable around it. Anyway, I believe the bible is an interesting study of sociology and how ancient peoples dealt with societies running rampant. Moses might have been a real person, but I do not believe he received any words from a god. I feel he saw his tribe tearing each other apart, possibly starving because they were not working together as a society. So, he thought, “Hmmm, these are a bunch of superstitious idiots. If I disappear for a while and come back with some words that ‘came from god’ they will be scared into treating each other better and building a better society.
I’m just sayin’…
May 29, 2009 at 6:40 pm |
[...] Losing my religion. Why I recently walked away from Christianity. I was planning to write up a detailed story about my Christian life and the recent rejection of my faith. But my goal [...] [...]
May 29, 2009 at 6:45 pm |
Tim,
Actually it is generally agreed among historians, Christian and otherwise, that Jesus probably existed. Of course, a historian can’t count the idea of Jesus as the pre-existent son of God, virgin-born savior of mankind because history, like any other science or social science, operates with an atheistic methodology. That means that miracles can’t be assumed because there is no logical proof of them. However, given the time frame of the first of Paul’s writings, (approximately 60 CE,) that we have, and the references to prior writings by him made by him, we can assume that the traditions that arose among people following Jesus came around rather shortly after the time that he was purported to have been crucified. That mixed with Roman historians’ mentioning a man in Judea that started a following and was crucified for seditious activities makes it extremely probable that Jesus as a historical figure existed. Of course the traditions and “miracles” that have since arisen around him can’t be verified historically for the aforementioned reasons, Jesus himself is considered a very real historical figure. He has as much evidence for his existence as Socrates does.
May 29, 2009 at 7:05 pm |
Dear FTRP,
Appreciate your comments to Tim (BTW–I apologize to any (who care) that I said I posted my last–I want to respond once more to you…)
Your comment, “He has as much evidence for his existence as Socrates does.”–I’d like to challenge you to do a numbers (research) count of ancient manuscripts (physical pieces) of biblical writings the earliest) verses all the (physical) ancient manuscript of Greek writings/writers (earliest) COMBINED ……(a hint–it’s NOT EVEN CLOSE)
May 30, 2009 at 6:27 pm |
freethinking religious person: Actually it is generally agreed among historians, Christian and otherwise, that Jesus probably existed. Of course, a historian can’t count the idea of Jesus as the pre-existent son of God, virgin-born savior of mankind…
OK, so some person named Jesus (a form of Joshua, and a very common name in that time and place) existed approx 2000 years ago in the middle east. What an extravagant, shocking claim! Would you be willing to believe me if I told you there was a man “Antonio” living in Rome today?
If this Jesus to whose existence some historians assent is not the miracle-working, born of a virgin, son of God, then it is not the Jesus of the bible, and the assent of historians to his mere existence is not at al noteworthy. (not to mention, you don’t cite a source.)
May 29, 2009 at 6:55 pm |
You wrote: “The only reason I was a Christian was because I was indoctrinated into the religion as a child as a result of the culture and region of the world in which I was born.”
Being a Christian requires believing that Jesus existed (plausible for many), died, started to rot, came back to life and was God in the flesh. I am going to suggest that, if you look yourself in the mirror, you will admit that you never really believed any of that crap.
May 29, 2009 at 7:19 pm |
Dear “The Atheist Missionary”,
Last post–I promise
FTR, for all of us to see, you have placed you and your “any of that crap” (referring to Jesus and the scriptures) presumptuousness
vs
Jesus, the Son of God, The King of kings and Lord of lords……….
You have been weighed in the scale and found WANTING——
You had best repent of your scoffing, for the ‘day of the Lord’ is at hand for you…………………
May 29, 2009 at 10:29 pm |
“You had best repent of your scoffing, for the ‘day of the Lord’ is at hand for you…………………”
That is the same thing the apostles preached 2,000 years ago. But any day now he’ll come down riding on his chariot from the clouds. Okay, I’ll quit scoffing now.
May 29, 2009 at 11:02 pm |
Brad,
You have been weighed in the scale and found WANTING——
You had best repent of your scoffing, for the ‘day of the Satan’ is at hand for you…………………
(Makes as much sense…..)
May 30, 2009 at 5:31 am |
Brad
Seriously you need to see a Psychiatrist! Your insane with the number of posts and the content you have posted. I should have scrolled all the way down before I responded to a previous post. there is something SERIOUSLy wrong with you. People please dont reply to this guy…he has NO idea what christanity is and he is merely a psycho!
May 30, 2009 at 1:07 am |
Wow,,,when I read comments like this. Helps me grow even stronger in my fellowship with Christ. KING OF KINGS. Lord of Lords. Proud to know I am serving the Almighty King who created us all. Comments like these pains my heart yet I thank God for stumbling onto this page, because it sure helps this mother that I am to stay on her knees against the demonic Powers of Satan. I’ll continue asking for strength with all my heart in prayer Pleading the Blood of Christ for my children in the Name of Jesus. A Spiritual War fair is so strong right now. I Thank God that I not only Believe I am on the Winning Side but I Know it without a doubt I am on the winning side. My heart goes out to many that don’t know the Love of Christ, “Why you may ask” in question? Well it’s because I do believe in the Resurection of Christ,,,because its the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.
In Gods Love TBerry
May 30, 2009 at 7:26 am |
Wow. As someone who is struggling with their faith I look at some of the responses from Christians here (notably Brad and Tberrys) and one word springs to mind.
Brainwashing.
I know Christians who have stepped so far off the deep end that they firmly believe anything that a handful of the “popular” pastors say.
Scary stuff.
May 29, 2009 at 7:00 pm |
I AM Red the Archangel…
15. The only reason I was a Christian was because I was indoctrinated into the religion as a child as a result of the culture and region of the world in which I was born..
i don’t blame you for feeling as you do right now. First, you use a handle “the Be attitude”. this is a good clue. And you have a good reason why you’re now a self-proclaimed “class “A” theist. This is probably it #15 in your “look at me article”. If i may say so that in that sentence i could probably replace the word “reason” with a different but possible alternative word like “EXCUSE”. Don’t get me wrong. It’s alright to be where you are right now. This is a friggin’ free world and you can do whatever the “hell” you wanna do and say. But then again read this sentence between the line. What is your excuse? I can also direct this question to all who visit and read blogs on this site. What is your excuse for being a Catholic Christian? What is your excuse for being in your so called Religion? Does anybody really ever care if they belong to a particular religion nowadays? Or are you just bitchin that you are this and i belong to that Reli.. Hey, theBEattitude…keep it up. i know where you are right now, YOU have asked a lot of questions and nobody was ever good enough to provide you with answers. The difficulty with questions regarding Faith is that one question leads to more question. But i assure you that if you wont stop looking for answers. You’d eventually get the right one. You might even end up with the right one if you would look and ask in the right places. That’s IF you’re looking for the right answer.
I started out with a similar observations in your numbered articles…and most people who are serious with finding answers do start out with these. But then again, i can also see that you’re questions are a give-aways…If you want to know about something. Here is a peice of advice. Take off your fancy bling and dive right in. King Leonidas was faced with soldiers known as “the Immortals”. What did he say, “Lets put them to the test. Truth is there are so many truths. There is the Catholic truth, other religious truth, truths you were fed, your personal truth, there is even a thing called Dan Brown truth and a thousand crap truth out there. Enjoy the Red kryptonite as of the moment…(metaphorically speaking), you’re not Kal-El but some things are inescapable. Atheism in not a religion dude, its a transition.
May 29, 2009 at 7:44 pm |
to jjened,
Have you heard of “Interconnectivity”. We are all connected in more ways than one. Whether we admit it or not. everything that exist whether its an ash from your cigar, a pebble from a beach a thousand miles from where you are or that Mack truck hauling fuel for Ferrari parked somewhere in India. Aside from interconnectivity there is also purpose. we exist for a purpose and it gives us interconnectivity and we are going from point a to b to c until we reach that single point called singularity. If you don’t know this stuff you haven’t been listening to your teachers very well and you haven’t done your ample share of using your gray if it matters. If you don’t have an end purpose then your existence is a big question mark but since you do exist enough to write this blog then whether you admit or care to admit it or be rationally aware about it we are on a roll. Jen what is the purpose of being intelligent, honest and the so-called doing the right if it has no meaning in the end. it serves nothing. this is the reason why there are people who can kill and wipe out entire nation because it doesn’t matter. But you know what? People do the right thing because in the end it MATTER. More than you will ever know!
May 29, 2009 at 7:50 pm |
This is a fascinating give and take about the ultimate question – is there, or is there not a God?
The same Blaise Pascal that was quoted by the non-believer earlier also spoke of a “God-shaped vacuum” that is in every man. There is a longing to know the answers that we cannot know for certain now. It is amazing to me that those who profess to be atheists are as vehement in their “faith” in non-belief as are those who say they do believe. To be certain there is no God takes a lot more “faith” than to believe in any god. Rational thinking, reason, can never prove or disprove God. Many who have chosen to believe have never had a spiritual experience by which their belief could be cemented. They have just accepted what others have told them is true, or in the case of atheism, what is not true, and used that as their starting/ending point toward belief. For a true believer, submitting the mind to belief in a dogma, doctrines, etc., has nothing to do with the certainty he comes to have about his belief. Experiencing the presence of God in one’s life through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit is what brings the life-changing realization of the actuality of God – Emmanuel – with us, in us, through us. Though God uses the rational minds that He gave us, it is through the Spirit that we know Him, love Him, worship Him, communicate with Him and forever have the certainty that He is! You seekers of the truth -keep searching, for that silly, superstitious, book written by those sheepherders of long ago says in the book of Jeremiah, “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart (read spirit). I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and will bring you back from captivity.” We are all captives in one way or the other of what is not true (provable). God is Spirit and Truth and you can only come to the truth through uniting your spirit with His. Keep searching………….
May 29, 2009 at 7:53 pm |
Good job.
May 29, 2009 at 8:32 pm |
Jesus predicted that not all would believe:
8:11 “Now the parable means this: The seed is the word of God. 8:12 Those along the path are the ones who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 8:1
1. Exodus 20:4-19
2. Revelation 20:11-14
3. Since the flood God instituted governing laws to keep man’s sinful predispositions in check. Man is free to committed crimes but none will go unpunished.
4. God never demanded human sacrifice with the exception of his one and only Son. The ritual of communion involves eating bread and drinking wine or grape juice is in remembrance of the Cross of Jesus.
5. In the fullness of time God sent his one and only Son who is the exact representation of the Father. A.D. 2009
6. The Jewish Pharisee’s had the same complaint. Jesus promised them the sign of Jonah.
7. Jesus taught us how to pray.
8. Read Isaiah 53
9. The author is the Holy Spirit
10. The Bible is consistent and if woven together by a single author.
11. There are good teachers and then there are false teachers but the Word is unchanged.
12. Jesus said love your enemies.
13. I think you need to provide a quote or two because you are mistaken.
14. Please provide a quote from the bible to support your argument.
15. If you have rejected the gospel of the kingdom that is your choice.
16. The foundation is the Word of God (39 OT, 27 NT).
17. Yes. Except for the main points.
18. The mark of the Christian is love for one another. In the absence of love there is the absence of Christianity.
19. Yes to it’s earthly and heavenly shame.
20. The Bible ended as finished masterpiece since A.D. 95 by the last living Apostle of Jesus. Yet it is still relevant, understandable, and sufficient to spiritually nurture millions of Christians worldwide from every nation, tribe, and tongue.
May 30, 2009 at 7:34 am |
youngearth,
Excellent job. I was going to do this myself. But I can see I don’t have to. Check out my blog sometime.
May 30, 2009 at 7:35 am |
Sorry, thought it would provide the link with my username:
thefourwinds.wordpress.com
May 30, 2009 at 11:36 am |
you know, unless I misread something, I literally think everything you just listed is wrong.
May 29, 2009 at 8:57 pm |
If you guys are not going to play fair like using Scientifically quantifiable facts and data to backup your arguments then its useless to argue. Your just going to use circular logic saying that the bible is true, why is the bible true? because god wrote the bible, how do we know? because it says so in the bible. Atheists don’t have a large amount of faith in Atheism to be able to be Atheist’s. The word Faith means belief of something where there is no rhyme or reason or proof to believe but you still do because you have faith that its true. Atheist’s Don’t Believe, we have no faith. Because their is no proof we default to a no proof no belief standpoint, hence the Atheism. Once you understand why you dismiss all other religions and gods like Thor, Zeus, Allah or whatever then you will understand how we dismiss your god. Its all the same, its all a sham. You cant argue with a person that has pride in believing something where their is no proof to do so. If someone has religious faith its already game over. They will never listen to the facts at hand. Because all the proof in the world cant disprove something that is based on NO PROOF, that’s what faith is, its circular logic and its insanity if you sit down and actual think about it, but you wont.
May 30, 2009 at 2:01 am |
In science, people come up with hypotheses, and then try to prove them. When they gather enough proof for something, they say that they there is sufficient evidence to support their hypothesis. When they don’t have enough evidence, they don’t say that they have disproved their hypothesis but that there is insufficient evidence to support their hypothesis.
Based on the definition of science… “There is no conceivable set of observations or results that would prove that God does not exist… therefore, the existence of God is not a scientific issue”
May 30, 2009 at 2:45 am |
Or alternatively – look at it as an issue of probability, which is the other foundation of science. The probability of God existing is…well, the odds are frankly so astronomic it is an IMprobability that there is a God. So if anyone is struggling and is wondering if there is a god…it’s a fair argument to say. PROBABLY not.
May 30, 2009 at 7:16 am
To me, ‘probably not’ is not good enough to completely rule something out. Yes, I can say that something is unlikely to happen.. or probably won’t happen. But with ‘probably not’, I can never say with certainty whether something will or will not happen, whether something does or does not exist. To me, with ‘probably not’ (and likewise, with ‘probably’), faith or belief is always involved – one can only say that due to the high/low probability of something happening/existing they belief that something will/won’t happen or does/doesn’t exist.
May 29, 2009 at 9:39 pm |
Excellent! I love hearing about a rational person who thinks his way out of the biggest lie to ever be put over humanity. I did it 16 years ago, and have been outspoken against Christianity ever since.
My advice: kick the dust off your shoes, never look back, and just ignore all these dorks. I’ve been arguing with them for too long, and it can lead to futility or despair.
May 29, 2009 at 9:53 pm |
I’m a Zen Buddhist living in the US… just a comment between the two “sides” in the comments section: you can learn something from a spiritual book without believing in dieties. I think is the most useful part of all religions (including Christianity) is the philosophies that can make one’s everyday life better.
May 30, 2009 at 10:51 am |
These words touched me deeply, and I feel blessed. I too, have always believed this. I have discovered many beautiful things in other religions and have taken their wisdom into myself.
As for Christianity – I was raised a Christian, got burned by ‘man made’ Church rules when I was 23, turned my back on the religion – but gave it another shot when I was 32. Did good for a decade -but again, I got burned, not by God’s law, but by men who claim to hear God’s voice and say that man made rules according to the church have been sanction by God — and, if I don’t accept these rules then I am not a “true Christian” and I need to examine what sins are still in my life.
I am 44 years old now — and I have decided I have no time for these head games. I still believe in a God — and Christianity has some good points. But the greediness, the bigotry and the man has perversed the word of God leaves me sick to my stomach.
Therefore, I find myself centering around the goodness that other religions offer – taking what resonates within my soul, and learning life lessons in a way that speaks to me, urging me on to become the best person spiritually possible.
May 29, 2009 at 10:16 pm |
I am christian and my relationship with God is totally up to me. I don’t let a church tell me what my responsibilites are or what i need to do to connect with him. My church that I attend is very good about pushing a strong personal relationship between you and God.
Until 7 years ago, I was a non believer who was cruising through life thinking that I had it all figured out. One day things began to melt down around me. I resisted several pushes from very close friends and family to go to church and talk to God about things. One day, when all else had failed to relieve the stress I was going through, I begged him into my life. What happened from there is beyond amazing. I have spoken at several events about my story and while I hate revisitng that time of my life, I have been told by many people that my story is one that needs to be told over and over again. People who hear it are proud to show me the goosebumps that they have gotten from hearing my story.
I started writing a book months ago, but just have never finished it yet. I add to it when I can, but it’s not been my focal point. I am not writing it for money, I am writing it because I want a written record of how he took a very non-believing, broken young man and turned his world upside down, tearing me apart before putting me back together, stronger than I ever was before.
I would be willing to share my story with you, if for nothing else than to show you that there is more to christianity than what you have been told.
I for one would rather go through life believing that there is a God, only to find out after I die that he does not exist, than to go through life as if he doesn’t exist, only to find out after dying that he does and was waiting for me to come to him.
If you want to hear my story, you can e-mail me at pbmchris@comcast.net
Don’t give up.. He wants a relationship with you..
May 30, 2009 at 2:48 am |
Would it not be more fun to be – as I am – an atheist – and find that there is a God. It would be a much better surprise. Rather than spending all your time worrying and wondering and trying to please Him.
I start with the assumption that at the end of life, we are worm-food. I am happy in this knowledge and perfectly comfortable with the idea..and frankly if, by some gigantic leap of imagination and chance, I am wrong then wow, that will be a bonus.
May 30, 2009 at 5:44 pm |
I don’t think that being religious is about worrying and trying to please God any more than you worry and try to please your parents. It is about trusting that loving people is a better way of living than not, regardless of how much you understand it. Much like a child trusts that their parents teachings are the right way to live. In actuality I just called myself a big child but that is honestly how I think of it. I am completely comfortable with that idea just like you are with the idea of being nothing more than worm food.
May 30, 2009 at 7:49 am |
Bigdogbranding,
I’m with you, man, and God bless you, brother. I normally would not spend two seconds reading a blog like this, but because God is dealing with me on getting involved in the ministry, I took the time to look it over and examine the comments here. What the author is saying, and many of the comments to support it, is common in the world of non-believers.
I have been interacting with a blogger for a couple of months now who feels much the same way theBEattitude does. But I can get nowhere with her because her hardened heart prohibits it. I decided simply to pray for her, and others like her. Without God’s leading, a person cannot come to Him. Even then, we all have free will – the freedom to reject Him or accept Him.
However, a person who claims to have once been a part of His Kingdom only to reject Him later is a fool. It is impossible to know Him and then blaspheme Him. A true Christian can fall, he can stumble, he can turn away from God for a time. But he could never, ever leave Him. To say so means you never knew Him to begin with, and that is the problem.
I commend your courage, bigdog, to speak out. Although we’re in the extreme minority on blogs like this, it is important to the work of the Kingdom to get involved when we feel God is leading us to do so.
The BEattitude’s claims to support his rejection of Christ are typical, and they’re all false. A willing heart and mind could easily find the true answers, but I won’t provide all those here. I will simply direct him and everyone else who believes likewise to the Web site http://www.wayofthemaster.com.
I hope they will invest as much time on there as they have here, talking about how Christians and Christianity are jokes and that the millions upon millions upon millions of Christians throughout history have all been deceived, their faith placed in a fairy tale.
Those who know God are His witnesses. I’m one of them. Biddog is one of them. If you want to talk about it with open hearts, if you’re ready to come to true peace that can only be found through God, contact us.
Don’t rest on the false belief that if you don’t believe and then die and are wrong about God’s existence that you’ll be sanctified in eternity. By then, it’s too late. Now is the time to find God. We can help lead you to Him, but the choice is ultimately yours.
BEattitude, I feel for you. I do. I’m not judging you, man, but you need some real spiritual guidance that only a true believer can provide. Stop looking to the world for answers. The world cannot and will not help you. I plead with you to make this right. Open your heart and let us help.
Bigdog, I look foward to talking to you.
http://WWW.WAYOFTHEMASTER.COM
May 30, 2009 at 6:43 pm |
Hey, it’s that guy from Growing Pains! I wondered where he got to.
May 29, 2009 at 10:18 pm |
I second point 20
and ghandi’s quote. I studied in a Methodist school for 10 years, but didn’t convert to Christianity. Maybe I didn’t possess the guilt-sin complex that forms the basis of the faith. I Like Christ too, and his philosophies. But humans are faillable and his teachings have become a mask for human hypocrisy. Christianity can be better, but faith is a personal choice. I too, like to believe in salvation, afterlife, and miracles, but perhaps I still have a long way to go.
Christians always say that the first step to God is “opening your mind”, but there is no true logical progression towards believing in God. It is truly a “leap of faith” – pure, blind faith and I can’t bring myself to do that. I can’t commit myself to an invisible entity and a set of teachings based on unprovable premises.
May 29, 2009 at 10:25 pm |
BE, I love you! You have crystallized my thoughts and opinions exactly … and probably the thoughts of many of others who dare to think, question the authority of the church, and live out a life full of happiness that is otherwise not found in Christianity.
I was a Bible scholar (formal … was in an accredited seminary program). The more I learned and took my understanding of Christianity beyond the 5th grade-plain-watered-down-plain-vanilla version the masses are fed, I realized the very points you raised. And it made me sick. And guess what … my blood pressure went down almost immediately and I’m finally living a fulfilled and very happy life!
May 29, 2009 at 10:29 pm |
Fantastic post.
Always remember that there’s a ton of good in the world, tons of really good people, completely unrelated to a god or religion.
I’ll be reading. And waiting with you for the amputee miracles.
May 29, 2009 at 10:37 pm |
I’ve been thinking about this, as well. The teachings of the bible and all those stuff my catholic school taught me back in elementary, and of course, my family’s and my friends’ “faith”. I’m finding it hard to believe them. How could I not doubt something that my own eyes didn’t see? *shrugs*
May 29, 2009 at 10:39 pm |
Being such and honest and intelligent person, I am sure you will soon see all of the flaws with materialism/naturalism and complete a list of reasons why you reject it. I am sure you will see the logic of rejecting Christ because of what Christians do/have done and reject materialism/naturalism because of Lamarckism, eugenics, scientific testing done on humans and animals, Nazi scientific experiments, fossil hoaxes, etc.
The amount of illogical, non-thinking people that the modern church produces is staggering. You have no clue how weak your arguments are and how foolish they sound to people that have even a little bit of honesty, fairness, and mental training. In other news, I reject taking a bath because children have died in the bathtub. I reject driving a car because people die in cars every day. I don’t eat because some people choke on food. And on and on and on. Some of your so-called reasons are childish and foolish.
May 29, 2009 at 10:46 pm |
The hypocritical actions of Christians played a very small role in my “rejection of Christ”.
You may see me as childish and foolish, but I find faith in an invisible man in the clouds to be childish and foolish. Especially when you base that faith off archaic folklore that reads like a fictional story written by cavemen.
Faith like a child is the only way to believe.
May 29, 2009 at 10:45 pm |
Amen! I renounced my Christian upbringing (down-bringing) over a decade ago, and began a personal relationship with the Creator, devoid of any established, organized religion. I believe this is the next step in humanity’s spiritual evolution, and envision a day when everyone does this.
To the point, though: I despised Jesus for “founding” Christianity, at all–until I read two books which convinced me that Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity. The first is “Jesus: A Life”, by A.N. Wilson. The second is “The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q, and Christian Origins”, by Burton Mack. And I’m still convinced.
But even if were mistaken–even if Jesus were responsible–I would still feel the same about Christianity. Christianity is not despicable because of its nuances, like the “Trinity”–all religions have those. It is despicable because it is the only major religion on Earth that accepts no other as legitimate. Islam accepts Judaism and Christianity. Judaism accepts Islam and Christianity. And the Eastern Religions, which include Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism, accept all other religions as legitimate.
Simply put, Christianity maintains that all non-Christians are eternally damned. Thus bigotry is at its core. I do not believe in a “Satan”. But if I did, I would consider Christianity its most effective tool.
May 29, 2009 at 11:05 pm |
I am not a Christian but have you ever read or heard of The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels? This bestselling book won both the National Book Critics Circle Award and the National Book Award and was chosen by the Modern Library as one of the 100 best books of the twentieth century. The conservative Christian Intercollegiate Studies Institute listed it as one of the 50 Worst Books of the Twentieth Century so I guess they didn’t like what she has to say.
This book really helped me come to terms with the influence and effects Christianity has had on the world to date.
May 29, 2009 at 11:06 pm |
[...] scrubone 6:06 pm When people talk about how they have fallen away from christianity, I am usually left wondering how on earth they could have such a poor understanding of their own [...]
May 29, 2009 at 11:13 pm |
Christianity makes me happier. Even if there is no substantial proof, and even it depends on faith, it changes people. When someone tells me he/her is Christian, I am guaranteed that somewhere in their heart, there is love. That’s what matters to me the most.
May 30, 2009 at 6:26 am |
kennotation, if you had cancer, would you want the doctor to tell you there weas nothing wrong? Religion, my friend, is the opiate of the masses.
June 2, 2009 at 2:50 am |
@ Atheist Missionary
I was waiting to see that. That’s a favorite quote of mine. “Religion is the opiate of the masses” It is indeed
@ Kennotation
I’m sure just about everyone, regardless of whether they are Christian or not, has love somewhere in their hearts. Everyone has love for something even if they don’t understand it as love.
May 29, 2009 at 11:29 pm |
Even taught the beliefs of my dear parents, who did not believe in hellfire, I had to reject the nonsense of a guy in the sky who was both an atom-creating hyper-genius and a thistle-caster with a weakness for roast lamb…
I am glad to have discovered your site (…To BE is the vital attitude! I see! It took me ten minutes…) to add to the sidebar of my blog mydigest.wordpress.com under Mindkind links. Your 20 points are well thought out. But I do wish that you would accord the name of my home planet, Earth, proper noun status.
Given the NEED of a large proportion of humankind for an imaginary afterlife to believe in, and their incurable INABILITY to think clearly for themselves, I suggest that it is up to those of us who have awoken from the harmful nonsense of theism, to invent a less-harmful nonsense to REPLACE theism.
I invite you to consider my Natural Afterlife (see Pages in my sidebar) for the job. Pseudo-science it certainly is, but necessary I suggest, given the strength of the present day enemy that is recruiting strongly via modern electronic communications. I am one of little faith. I do not trust in the eventual acceptance of mortality. Non-sexy science is for the few.
May 29, 2009 at 11:33 pm |
Honestly there is a point where it takes a certain amount of balls to be able to admit these things. It’s when you are reborn into this world knowing you’ll make yourself and the ones around you better. I’m impressed you should be too.
May 29, 2009 at 11:36 pm |
where is your hope
May 29, 2009 at 11:41 pm |
I’m always confused by the assumption that it requires belief in an afterlife to have hope.
You choose to hope for life after death, I choose to hope for a full life while I’m alive.
May 29, 2009 at 11:52 pm |
Where is his hope? What do you mean? Did you not read his full post? I think not. If you had, you would see that being released from the guilt, shame, control, hypocrisy, and contradictions of Christianity brings a boatload of hope.
I’d rather have my boat filled with that kind of hope than a hope that some dude who can walk on the water will fill my boat with fishes … haven’t seen anything like that happen to people who really need it my 40+ years.
In fact, I wonder if the people of Rwanda should feel your type of “hope” … or if the people huddling together in New Orleans’ Superdome during the hurricane felt your strong sense of “hope” … or if the man just diagnosed with prostate cancer should just “hope” it will get better … because we all know god cures all of these issues.
Yes, your “hope” is so closely tied with reality that it just makes it very difficult to read the hope in the blog post. (FYI, this is sarcasm).
May 29, 2009 at 11:53 pm |
What is with all of the Atheists posts lately? It seems WordPress.com’s home page is full of them!
Anyway, I stay out of religious debates nowadays, but I wanted to mention that your header design is very nice, BEattitude. Have a good one!
May 29, 2009 at 11:54 pm |
You have a small point, but, if you had no future to look foward to after death, if all that you accomplished became useless after you died, wouldn’t you feel pointless? Looking foward to heaven to live in, seems alot more happy, then knowing that you are just a dumb monkey.
May 30, 2009 at 12:08 am |
I obviously like the idea of living forever. I just find it impossible to believe heaven exists as described in the Bible. A place that no other creature on earth is invited. Every piece of God’s creation is disposable except for humans. We are only slightly genetically different that dumb monkeys, but somehow we are precious to god and they are simply on earth for humans to “rule over” according to the creation story.
Yes belief in heaven helps people cope with death and helps many feel happy believing their loved ones are in a better place. But the fact I don’t believe it does not make my existence pointless.
May 30, 2009 at 1:52 am |
What you do during your life only has to be pointless if you want it to be. You can do things to make an ever lasting impact on the world even after your dead. Donating to a charity would be one simple example.
You should brush up on your science Nathan, and less on dogma. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is also life wasted.
May 30, 2009 at 6:28 am |
I think living forever could get tiring. You’d even get sick of those 72 virgins. Forever is a long time.
May 29, 2009 at 11:56 pm |
[...] Nice post from BE Attitude (http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/) detailing the reasons why he walked away from Christianity. Slightly edited for clarity, here are [...]
May 30, 2009 at 12:01 am |
He does kind of have a point. And speaking of monkeys, if you are a athiest, you are probably evolutionist.
please, tell me some proof for darwinism.
May 30, 2009 at 12:32 am |
Um. Have you ever heard of fossils? Have you ever made visual connections to the “could it be a coincidence” similarities to us and “them?” Have you ever read a book or taken a science course? Have you ever spoken with a geologist? Have you ever learned about the germ theory? Have you ever seen….
oh, forget it.
May 30, 2009 at 1:26 am |
You can usually tell a creationist by his use of the terms “darwinist/darwinism”. It’s extremely rare for biologist to use these terms, as “darwinism” doesn’t exist in the world of biology anymore. Indeed, Darwin’s classic theory from his famous “Origins of Species” has been heavily modified and integrated into the subject of biology. The entire body, including parts of Darwin’s original theory, is referred as The Theory of Evolution. This Theory of Evolution includes the processes of Adaptation, Genetic drift, Gene flow, Mutation, Natural selection and Speciation. Most of which, were never present in Darwin’s original theory. And indeed, there’s a mountain of evidence for this theory.
You can find plenty of evidence from genetics, paleontology, comparative anatomy, geographical distribution, comparative physiology and biochemistry, antibiotic and pesticide resistance, studies of complex iteration, speciation and interspecies fertility and modifications. Whew, that was a mouth full. And the beautiful thing about scientific theories is that they make predictions; and so far, evolution has proved itself by verifying these predictions. It’s also helped launch us into the modern medical age via its wealth of knowledge (biology to some degree is just “theoretical medicine”). It has a wealth of applications in science and technology. So, I’m afraid evolution will be around for a long time to come.
For those who just TL;DR’ed this comment, Hokeypokey has just proved his ignorance.
May 30, 2009 at 6:30 am |
Read Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne. If you doubt the fact of evolution after reading that, I’ve got some oceanfront property is Arizona with your name written all over it …
May 30, 2009 at 12:29 am |
I hope you don’t mind…but I pasted your blog to my blog, with a link.
I always knew it. I did. But, being surrounded by family that believed…and living in the Bible Belt kept me imprisoned. Plus, I was really young.
When I first told my mother, after coming home from my first year in college, that I did not believe, she slapped me. Hard. In the middle of the kitchen.
Then, after having 2 little children, years later, I went through a horrible divorce. Throughout the process, I suffered massively. I prayed and begged and prayed some more. Nothing good came of it. Instead, looking back, I now feel honored to know that I got to experience just about the most extreme pain one can experience, with a “hope” for relief. The honor? There was no relief and I now have a wisdom I can always remember. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
May 30, 2009 at 12:42 am |
I understand why you have lost your faith.
However, what you have lost is your faith in an imaginary god. That one that is written in books consisting of words and concepts written by men.
In my experience, the God and the spiritual exists. Indeed, it is difficult, or even impossible, to “show” evidence, and for the outsider it may seem as some mind trick or worse. Yes, I too asked myself questions like yours but at the end got some answers that were useful to me, and because of this I still have my faith and may say even more ingrained. I may give you my answers, but they shall be still words and concepts from another man like you. You need to search and fight for your own answers – not the ones inculcating by others as the “words of god”.
My friendly advice:
- When you feel in tribulation, try to “pray to a sacred force” deep inside you; looking for a state of mind of complete honesty and nakedness. Again, it’s key to tune for honesty and being as natural as possible (not as easy as it sounds), using your own words – even if childish or silly; do not use any christian or other artifacts if you do not feel the need to.
- If you get any “feelings” or even “answers”, just think of these as some autoreflective process has happened; just people may have more depth than used to in their everyday’s life. If you get nothing, well, at least you have “poured your soul out” and any psychologist would tell you that’s a good thing.
- Persevere. Reserving some time to meditate about things and look for perspective is good for you, atheist or not.
Wish you blessings and the veil shall fall at the end.
Alex
May 30, 2009 at 6:47 pm |
And may da Schwartz be wit’ you!
May 30, 2009 at 12:44 am |
I an atheist, but not by choice. I am afraid of death, afraid of ending, and I look at religious people and I am envious. Not because they get to do the things they do, say the things they say or ignore the things they ignore, but because they get to believe that they won’t end.
I have tried to believe, to take part in various Christian beliefs. I have read about Buddhism. I have been saved, attended church groups, etc. I can’t do it, though. I can’t suspend that part of myself which keeps me from accepting the basic premises of all religions. Faith.
When I would go to church, I was always uncomfortable with the messages, the tone, the falseness of the sermons. Judgment is the core of Christianity in practice. I used to hold the Bible in high regard, if for no other reason then, as a book of wisdom but whatever wisdom there is is tainted by judgment and manipulation.
I just can’t believe.
May 30, 2009 at 1:40 am |
Well the thing about death is, there isn’t really anything to be afraid of, since there is nothing to experience after you die. Everyone has experienced true death already. When you sleep but do not dream, then wake up, that time in between is lost to you, you have no awareness of your existence during that time. You are essentially dead.
May 30, 2009 at 1:47 am |
I’d also add, that depending on how young you are, there is a good chance that you will live long enough to see science prevail to preventing the effects of aging from occurring. Aging is cellular degradation caused by poorly upkept DNA. Scientist’s are working hard on finding ways to make our bodies repair themselves properly. Some animals bodies repair themselves better than others, this is seen throughout nature. There are even organism’s called Hydra that are considered pretty much immortal. (unless killed by something other than aging of course.). So it will, without a doubt be possible sometime in the future. And I would guess within the next 20-40 years, maybe even sooner. And even if not in that time frame, we will still have produced technologies to help you live a longer healthy life, until such anti-aging treatments have been perfected.
If your too old for that, there’s always ALCOR, who will cryogenically freeze you when you die. Unfreezing you in the future when they have the technology to do so and repair you
. (Can be paid for through life insurance and other things.)
May 30, 2009 at 8:08 am |
I agree with Kakkoii on this one. Save your fear for those who could cause you to die an early death.
The idea of nothingness after I die used to terrify me. Fear is a choice, just like belief in God is a choice. Everyone copes in different ways.
May 30, 2009 at 12:58 am |
[...] the original post can be found here, but I’ve attached most of it below: I was planning to write up a detailed story about my [...]
May 30, 2009 at 2:45 am |
This is one of the smartest, most calmly argued and well-written post to have made it to the WordPress Dashboard/ Homepage. Kudos to you on your moral courage and intellectual honesty.
May 30, 2009 at 2:55 am |
As far as Christianity is concerned, I don’t like being told I was born a sinner and that all men are born sinners. What does the author think about this?
May 30, 2009 at 8:12 am |
I agree with you. None of us are perfect, but to think a newborn baby is born as a filthy sinner is crazy.
The Bible even tell us we inherit the sins of our parents and relatives from 10 generations ago. Being born charged guilty of sins we didn’t commit does not sound like a just god worthy of anyone’s worship.
May 30, 2009 at 3:09 am |
Cain, you don’t like being told much of anything right? You don’t like being told you are lying when you are, etc. You’re human. Just because you do not like it doesn’t mean you can just throw it out. That line of thought is absurd. It’s just like a little kid crying to their mother because they do not like something she has lovingly given them.
The author is an atheist and was so long before this post. It’s plain and simple by this whole page. He’s just trying to find some way to reason every thing out. It’s the way of humanity. We have to know everything. We are paranoid creatures. We have to be able to justify everything we do in our own way. If some one or thing disagrees with us we have to come up with a reason to say that they are wrong. That is all this author is doing. He never truly experience that of which he speaks. There are thousands of people that lie like this on the internet daily. Nothing new.
May 30, 2009 at 8:23 am |
I’ve been a nonbeliever for less than a year. And I have 33 years of experiencing that of which I speak.
I don’t “have to know everything”. That is exactly why I no longer believe. You believe you know everything because the Bible gives you all of the answers. Faith makes a person blind and arrogance in a person’s knowledge makes them blind. I refuse to go to either extreme.
May 30, 2009 at 4:15 pm |
Be,
I have an interest in your perspective on why you don’t believe in Jesus. I have been a Bible believing Christ Follower for 21 years and have a blog site regarding my view of the world through a Christian Worldview. Please check it out sometime:
http://www.dougwadedesign.wordpress.com
specifically:
http://dougwadedesign.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/the-rock-that-offends/
May 30, 2009 at 3:10 am |
Yes, my opinion is about the same, even though I am never a theist (meaning I never hold a religion fully). I am just someone who think religions only divide people apart, even thought what they are worshiping is an (maybe) only God. I mean, why consider anyone else with different spiritual point view from us to be lost, and try to convert him or kill him or maybe furthering our ways from him? We can see things like these around us nowadays.
I am still in high school, and I think ‘the greater power’ would be more pleased if we do good things to everything around us every time, than following religions’ rituals to pray to God everyday without doing anything positive in particular to subjects who needed help.
Can my words be understood? English is not my first language. Sorry if I said something who harassed someone in particular.
May 30, 2009 at 3:48 am |
Another reason that you can add is:
Christianity more often than not supports repressive and illegitimate political regimes – face it, priests are no different from politicians nowadays…
May 31, 2009 at 8:54 am |
Does Christianity really “support” repressive and illegitimate political regimes? Just because the world may have twisted a position in the Church to hold so much power does not mean that Christianity supports it. We can’t do everything right – we are human. We can’t, therefore, look at what the Church may be doing and say that Christianity supports it. Though we strive to carry out our lives in ways pleasing to the Lord, it doesn’t mean we always succeed.
May 31, 2009 at 8:56 am |
Does Christianity really “support” repressive and illegitimate political regimes? Just because the world may have twisted a position in the Church to hold so much power does not mean that Christianity supports it. We can’t do everything right – we are human. We can’t, therefore, look at what the Church may be doing and say that Christianity supports it. Though we strive to carry out our lives in ways pleasing to the Lord, it doesn’t mean we always succeed.
I noticed in your post you stated, “priests are no different from politicians NOWADAYS” – perhaps nowadays some priest aren’t much different – what about several thousand years ago when the position of a priest was set up? I think we have warped the position to a huge degree and I do not look fondly upon it. But I can’t say that Christianity supports it.
May 30, 2009 at 3:49 am |
I know it’s been very hard for you. I just went through it myself two years ago, and I have to say, BRAVO. It takes so much courage to not only admit to yourself what you’ve always pretty much known, but also to make it public…Kudos, BE. Everything gets rosier from here on out.
It’s refreshing to look at the world free from the shackles of religion and appreciate the goodness of people, not because they’re afraid of what might happen to them if they’re not good, but because Good is the way to be. It just makes sense. I worship Good, anyway.
And here’s more fodder for those still struggling with the crutch of religion:
If god decided that stealing and murdering, etc. were good, and that all humans should act accordingly, would you?
If yes, then does that make these things “good”?
If no, then does what god says matter?
Either way, either goodness is arbitrary or god is. You can’t have both.
May 30, 2009 at 3:49 am |
Very similar doubts and questions lead me to leave Christianity and organized religion as a whole, too. The (ret) Episcopalian Biship John Shelby Spong has written a number of books that first forced me to face the doubts and questions head-on and to realize that, truly, I could not believe many of Christianity’s tenets any longer. Having also studied early Christian history in college and read quite a few other books, then following that by reading extensively on Taoism and Buddhism, it was a slow shift at first as I realized that I felt far happier, more fulfilled, more at peace, and honestly more in touch with BEING than I ever had as a Christian. Eventually I found I could no longer attend church or repeat any of the words with integrity, and so I stopped attending.
Now? I have found my greatest peace and sense of connection with the Divine Source through reading the works of Buddhism, Taoism, and of Eckhart Tolle.
Do I believe in “GOD?” ABSOLUTELY! But I don’t really like that word because of the baggage of history that is attached to it. The Divine; Being; Source……..other words that point to God but don’t try to define God as being of one faith or another.
Welcome the world of post-Christianity. It doesn’t have to mean post-faith……but that could be the long next step in your journey.
May 30, 2009 at 6:44 am |
Dr. Payet, first of all I have to applaud you for living in the Bible belt and having the courage to be so forthright about your beliefs (or lack thereof). I also find Buddhism appealing but I am curious to know why you believe so absolutely in a Divine Source.
May 30, 2009 at 3:52 am |
you are fantastic… i really liked this write-up… resonates with my recent rejection of christianity.
dan
May 30, 2009 at 3:57 am |
Congratulation for deciding to move away from religious superstition!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
May 30, 2009 at 4:04 am |
What you believe in now?
May 30, 2009 at 6:00 am |
Why is one required to “believe” in anything at all?
May 30, 2009 at 8:33 am |
I believe and give love to the things that actually exist. My children, my wife, my family, my friends and the world around me that I can affect for the better.
May 30, 2009 at 4:12 am |
I have a few points I would like to bring to your attention.
Firstly I would like to state that I am human and therefor imperfect and that my views may deviate from the absolute truth, so may yours.
Blaming God for all the persecution and suffering on earth is like going going to the minister of transport and blaming him for all the acidents on the road today. If you ask him why all of the accidents occur today, he’s going to give you a simple answer. People don’t follow the rules. Now, we were given free will by God, but we are subject to the absolute truth that causes the consequences of the decisions we make to come into action.
I am not sure if me and you read the same Bible, but the one I read tells of hope and not condemnation. It preaches of salvation and a future for the children of God after the life on this earth. Believing in a future of nothingness after death is hopeless compared to one of eternal life. Note that I said children and not slaves. He is our Father in heaven, also our King, not our slavedriver.
It seems to me that you never had a true meeting with God. You say that prayer does not change the world around us, but what of the many healings done by Jesus? What of the miracles performed in His name by His power? If you tell me that these do not exist I will tell you that you have not seeked hard enough. What is important though is not the miracles that occur where Jesus moves, but rather the salvation, hope and joy that He bought for us on the cross.
I am not judging you or condeming you, I am stating that I believe that God’s truth is absolute. For a large part of my life I was religious and did not live for God. In that time I was caught up in my own sin and did not place God first. I prayed to God, I went to church from time to time, but never did I feel an urgency to not sin and to live for God. I had the mindset of “I’ll change my ways someday”. I did not have a relationship with God, only a religion I was born into.
When I went to university, I met people who had a relationship with God. I saw in them something I wanted, as I was created with a need for that relationship. I gave my life to the Lord and have not looked back since. What I have experienced in the time since is more than enough to ensure me of my salvation and of the existnace, beauty, love and holiness of God.
I say this not out of wanting to place myself on a higher level than you reader. I say this because my wish for you is to experience the same salvation and joy that only the Lord can bring. Seek God and you will find Him.
May 30, 2009 at 6:54 am |
kikoza, watch how easy it is to play with your words:
“Blaming [Satan] for all the [happiness, beauty and love] on earth is like going going to the minister of transport and blaming him for all the [safe driving] on the road today. If you ask him why all of the [happiness, beauty and love] occur[s] today, he’s going to give you a simple answer. People don’t follow the rules. Now, we were given free will by [Satan], but we are subject to the absolute truth that causes the consequences of the decisions we make to come into action.”
kikoza, the point I am trying to make is that if I accept everything you say and believe, it is just as probable that Satan is God. Check out this post for a much more coherent and learned explanation from English philosopher Stephen Law than I could ever hope to provide: http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2008/12/could-it-be-pretty-obvious-theres-no.html
It is pretty obvious that there is no God or, if you like, just as likely that your Stan is God.
May 30, 2009 at 8:39 am |
You say that God’s “truth” is absolute, but there are many versions of his truth in the Bible. I could ask ten different Christians and I would get ten different versions of God’s truth.
You a free to believe whatever you choose, but it is impossible to argue the absolute nature of the Bible’s truth. That is why there are thousands of denominations and sects that have evolved from Christianity. As I say in #11, The Bible is open to interpretation. Everyone interprets it in the way that suits them best or serves their purposes.
June 2, 2009 at 8:54 am |
I went about this wrong
Look man
Me and you are human, we are sinners by default, we are imperfect. But I really hope that one day you will experience God and His perfect love in such a way to put all doubts behind you. It is never too late. God bless you. I want to see you in heaven.
May 30, 2009 at 6:33 pm |
kikoza: Blaming God for all the persecution and suffering on earth is like going going to the minister of transport and blaming him for all the acidents on the road today…
Is the minister of transport allegedly omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent?
May 30, 2009 at 4:34 am |
A funny view at todays view on the origin of life:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2671700/Evolve-NowAvoid-the-rush-
June 1, 2009 at 1:20 pm |
wow. not funny, and not factual. Read a book (besides the Bible).
June 1, 2009 at 1:42 pm |
The moon may have formed by a large object hitting the earth but the planets did not form that way. They coalesced out of dust and particles and therefore the conservation of angular momentum would not apply.
And the second law of thermodynamics clearly states “within a closed system”. i.e. without an external energy source. but earth has a small energy source, which we call the sun that provides the energy necessary for more complexity to occur. You would benefit by reading more widely as Pinheadx has suggested.
May 30, 2009 at 4:36 am |
Just stumbled on your blog post on the front page of WordPress.com — well done! (both for the front page post, and for coming to realise the lack of substance in religion).
Just thought I’d throw in a tweet from a friend:
http://twitter.com/owenblacker/status/1947240271
May 30, 2009 at 4:37 am |
My Pilgrimage from Atheism to Theism – By Anthony Flew
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7270202/Antony-Flew-Interview
May 30, 2009 at 4:42 am |
Anthony Flew – The Honest Ex-Atheist
May 30, 2009 at 4:45 am |
I like to say that I agree with you on one thing: we need to question ourselves why we do what we do and why we believe what we believe. It´s the only way to find a bit of sense or rationale to our lives.
As many of you, I was raised in christianity (catholicism) and started questioning the things you questioned. I´ve seen people get hurt by high comissions (just remember the Inquisition). But one day I got the answer. It´s all about Jesus. Every religion in the world has their wrong and abominable stories. Because as men, we fail and will always fail. But our God, is the only one that came willingly to suffer all the things that we suffer: reject, denial, heart-brokenness, loneliness, etc. He experienced so that we knew that our God -Jesus- knows what we go through… and that He cares. He is our friend if we want Him to be. He has always been there waiting for us to remember that. He is looking for friends, not follower. And he considers you and everyone that is willing to believe that, His friends. He loves you with your mistakes and He knows that we will continue to make even more. And that´s all right. That´s why he said that we will fall 7 times and 7 times he will pick us up. He loves you with your doubts, with your questions and he is actually glad that you ask them. He will never question us for questioning his existence.
The evil that we see is the result or the consecuences of our own choices. When we start only thinking in ourselves instead of helping others. Because that really and truly gives satisfaction. Because we all have a purpose in life… but we can ignore it. We are free to chose and if God wouldn´t have let us chose, He would have been a dictator, wich He is not. He just wants to be our friend and for us to know that He cares and loves you and me.
You will be surprised. Remember that He will never rub on our face our mistakes. And Jesus died so that we would become justified. So every time you start feeling you are not worth or that you have to do stuff to become accepted in His eyes… that´s not Him. He only wants you to know that He will help you. Because you are the most important thing for Him.
May 30, 2009 at 6:48 am |
Yeah! Somebody gets it! JC, you are my brother!
May 30, 2009 at 6:51 pm |
Even the plague?
May 30, 2009 at 4:47 am |
Very interesting. As a Muslim (by choice) it was nice to go through the different concerns you’d listed and evaluate our teachings.
Praise be to God, I didn’t really find the things you listed as issues within my faith (perhaps some good books to read would be – Losing My Religion: A Call for Help by Jefferey Lang, and of course the Qur’an. It is difficult to get accurate teachings about Islam, since there is such a concentrated effort to misrepresent it in the West). So I would like to thank you for letting me see the rationality behind my choice.
May 30, 2009 at 4:47 am |
Good for you. I left my family’s religion at a very young age and, despite all the disapproval and mean-spirited persuasions by the community to go back, I’ve discovered over the years that the beauty and wonder of the natural world far exceeds the one I was taught to view through supernatural lenses. A life without an almighty overseer is one to be greatly appreciated and lived to the fullest.
May 30, 2009 at 4:50 am |
[...] 30, 2009 here’s an interesting post http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/ Posted by Momentum Filed in 1 No Comments [...]
May 30, 2009 at 4:53 am |
Yay! Another reasonable, well-spoken person for our side!
May 30, 2009 at 4:54 am |
I am agnostic. I believe in a higher power. I hate when people use religion to be rude to others. When they say they don’t have to appologize because that’s the way God made them. Alot of Christians don’t even get what the Word really is or live it. I don’t want to sit next to them in church. They slam you behind your back. Then go online to find a Bible for someone. I left mostly because of the priest and what they have done. I can forgive someone for an illness they may have. I understand that. I don’t condone it though. What I have a hard time forgiving is those that covered up the scandle. The ones that should have been protecting. And, the archdioces of Philadelphia never appologized as far as I know. I figure I don’t have to explain the scandle, everyone should probably know it. I liken the priest to the mafia, they took a vow of silence. So, I walked away.
May 30, 2009 at 4:55 am |
Evil has play a good trick to you…
May 30, 2009 at 8:43 am |
Maybe God sent me “a strong delusion so I would believe a lie”.
May 30, 2009 at 5:07 am |
I would love to respond to every one of your 20 problems but it probably would not do any good. In some ways it looks like you believed in a different God and read a different Bible than I do. My Bible is messy and complex and at times hard to understand, but it also tells a consistent story of God reaching out to people and the struggles that are encountered along the way. The New Testament was written very close to the time of Jesus (compare our written records of Alexander the Great) and I believe that it accurately reflects the earliest believers understanding of Jesus. I also see God very differently. I do not see him as an angry God giving a blanket permission to kill unbeliever and who gleefully punishes people in hell. The OT descriptions of holy war (which I admit are difficult) are about a specific plan to get the promised land and were not about the extermination of unbelievers. And what if we take hell as defined by the absence of God rather than literal flames? Would a loving God force people into his presence or is it appropriate to provide a way and then allow people to make their own choice? I do not live with a burden of guilt or fear. My life is not easy, I have children with disabilities and things do not always go my way, but I have a sense of God’s love. I do have prayers answered on a regular basis, not like petitioning a cosmic Santa Claus, but a messier relationship experience, similar to the way I respond to my children’s requests.
I hope that you will keep an open mind. Perhaps psychologically it is easier to consider this a rejection now, but perhaps there will be a time in the future when the possibilities will open again. Good luck on your journey.
May 30, 2009 at 5:12 am |
I recently got into a conversation with a friend in work, which was no light hearted one at that. It stemmed from 3pm in the afternoon right up until our finish, being 6pm. He is very much a firm rooted christian and has been so for the past 2-3 years of his life. I’m the very opposite but not at all anal in any respect. I do a fair amount of reading and have picked up bits from the bible and gone onto covering aspects of existentialism. I’m 25 and recently went through what I can only explain as being the result of boredom, at the time I called it my deconstruction. Basically I came to a point of realisation.. That this was it, we’re here, we live, we breathe, we eat, we fuck, we interact, we meet people, some of us create something that will affect many others, sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad, we make families and we grow and this is it. There is nothing else, there’s nothing after, we don’t go on to an after life, we’re remembered through the people we meet and the memories they hold of us, personally, and that’s how we stay alive and are remembered. It’s so very brutal and I think as soon as you accept all that then you see that any religion or belief system is just a safety blanket for those who aren’t prepared to see that at times our existence here is lonely. We’re a damn highly advanced species- we have everything we could possibly need and are continually advancing this, but the brunt of it is we’re a very shallow species and I think I speak outloud for a majority and say that we’re very alone aswell. You see couples who are together for no other reason than because they become trapped with themselves and become too afraid to leave eachother..
Going back to my work colleague I realised that throughout the course of the conversation he was continually pushing for me to go down to one of their church classes.. It’s something I’ve never agreed with, especially the street criers who try to push ‘faith’ onto random passers by, but I stayed in conversation and never once told him that I found his ‘pushiness’ rude. Nearing the end of the conversation he told me that soon there would be a second coming of christ and that he would have to stand up to Jesus and Jesus will ask him how he has lived his life for him and he will have to answer him as honestly, and faithfully as he can.. I interjected and said what sort of life is it that you’re living.. knowing that this person is going to materialise out of nothing and ask you how you have lived your life for someone else.. I told him that he was here for no one else other than himself, there’s no proving to anyone, or living for anyone else.. When and if you do, get a family, then you live for them to make sure they have a good upbringing.. He just went so quiet and looked dumbfounded. That’s where the conversation ended. I think the brunt of it is, i’m a realist, to me the bible is just a brilliant form of fiction. I think if you’re a smart enough person and are aware of how it all JUST IS, then you don’t need a book to tell you how you should have your life modelled. I’m the brother to a Royal Marine and watch him go off to warzones filled with people who think they’re matryrs because of certain belief systems all fighting for something that is so lost, because our somewhat retarded government have, along with other retarded governments created a dirty mess all over this beautiful planet in the name of greed and money.
It’s early in the morning and I found this entire post highly interesting and i’m sorry if it in turn makes no sense.
I’m ending this with I think it’s fabulous, theBeattitute, that you’ve started living for yourself..
The sun is shining and it’s so very very beautiful outside.
May 30, 2009 at 5:20 am |
I am sorry that you came to that conclusion. I am a believer and strongly believe. I do not base my beliefs on the failure of others. I do tend to understand your last 3 conclusions. But again I don’t or will not believe based on others.
I do believe in God and as you stated that belief is believing not proving.
I do see the hatred for God from godless people. I do believe that God will judge because man is very very rebellious. If you HONESTLY look at all religions you will see that only Christianity is hated the most, I would have to ask why.
May 30, 2009 at 8:48 am |
Christianity is hated the most?
If you want to feel persecuted, try practicing the Muslim religion in the United States.
May 30, 2009 at 10:15 am |
how about the other way around how about practicing christianity in a muslim country. It’s not that we persecute them for their religion, people judge on the acts of certain people that represent their religion. Sadly, we look on our tvs and it’s rediculous how we portray someone who practices the muslim faith and see them as potential terrorists. that’s the only reason why Americans look at them suspiciously. Chrisitans, we just go to spread the word and we get killed kidnapped and persecuted. We don’t go around taking innocent lives.
May 30, 2009 at 2:44 pm
yes, but christians used to take millions of lives. it is only in recent history that christians are more peaceful. as christianity spread, it forced people to believe. only until it became an ineffective tool to control did christians stop killing nonbelievers.
christians would do well to remember the past of their religion. much killing, torture and harm has been done in the name of christianity for hundreds of years.
May 30, 2009 at 5:21 am |
Well I read what you had to say, not unusual , I did notice it was about what you think as if you just started, good work, keep it up I expect. How can you or someone say what God is when you know God doesn’t exist ? i.e. There is no God that you don’t belive in . must have stopped thinking.You can’t know when you don’t know. The story sounds like you are saying , you don’t like what you see or encounter so it can’t be so.This is very like a child. You have life some don’ t like that as well.This is called a state of being , a state of mind . The real question is will you throw in the towel.
May 30, 2009 at 5:23 am |
It is hard to find peace , depth of teaching, a supportive community and logic in the same place. Good luck with your quest for it is harder to define yourself by what you believe than by what you don’t. You are not alone in your thinking.
May 30, 2009 at 5:27 am |
I really really wish I had a better english so I could refute every single of your accusations. I feel really sorry to read all of this, because it proves that you’ve never experienced what’s like to have a relationship with God. And this makes me really sad, ’cause there’s nothing better in this world.
I know that there’s no reason for you to listen to me or do as I say, but if you could, it would be awesome to read this book, ‘The Shack’, by William P. Young. It talks about many many things that you used as reasons for you not to believe. I actually had some of them, but after reading it, many things made more sense to me.
Sorry for taking your time, but I really hope that what you feel will someday change. A relationship with Jesus should not be a burden to anyone, and, in a way, I’m glad you’re free from religion. Now it’s just the easier part: accept God’s love.
Wish you all the very best!
May 30, 2009 at 5:30 am |
[...] This guy pissed me off because he’s being childish by saying “This God allows horrible atrocities to be committed against innocent men, women and children every day.” [...]
May 30, 2009 at 5:31 am |
reading thru your post, my heart really goes out to you. for whatever reason you may want to leave the truth for something else, i wish you well and also pray that you will come to more understanding of who God is and what christainity is really about. Having said this, i am aware that some christain folks will make one question what type of a God they know and serve, but once you come to the true realisation of who God is and people will always misunderstand the bible, you will understand that your choice to leave your faith is a bad choice.
May 30, 2009 at 5:41 am |
Take care, bro… you’ll figure those out someday.
i’ve been in your position before. well, Jesus only wants you to choose not to submit. 
May 30, 2009 at 5:47 am |
been there done that. . got a t-shirt.
I am still a theist. . .but as far as religion. . .it’s a boys club and girls get to wash dishes.
I served in an Episcopal church for over 15 years, towards the end I was in church 5 out of 7 days of the week. Singing at a number of services as a soloist, quartet soprano and choir alto, but it was a constant struggle, against what I never learned.
The boys club shut me out for reasons I could never understand.
and I watched as the church handed out fish, but never once taught anyone to fish.
They invested in stocks and bonds, never people.
none of this was WWJD.
May 30, 2009 at 5:54 am |
Rejecting Christ is like rejecting the people we truly love the most. It is like rejecting our very own children who we know in our hearts we deeply love despite their flaws.
Jesus Christ did nothing wrong. He is the good news. The Bible may have a lot of vengeful things in it especially in the Old Testament. But Christ changed all of that when he came to live amongst us. He preached peace and compassion until his violent death. Would you have accepted Jesus Christ as a friend if he was your neighbor instead and not the so-called Son of God? Christ is the goodness you are looking for in yourself and in each one of us.
Christianity is about Christ. It is about love and the peace in your heart you so long the most.
Yes, we are all sinners. But given the chance, would we not offer our own lives to save the person we love the most? And if we were good persons instead, would we not also lay down our lives so that our loved ones may live? Whether we like it or not, our desire for all things good is rooted in Christ.
My point is, there is Christ in each one of us. If you do any good thing, it’s because Christ is good and not because you are good. All good things come from God through Christ! And believe it or not, he is especially close to sinners.
If we reject Christ, we will be rejecting the true peace of heart and mind we have been searching all our lives. To reject him is to cut ourselves off from him and his Father.
May 30, 2009 at 8:52 am |
I feel very peaceful without belief in Christ. My life is the same since I cut myself off from the father. What exactly am I missing?
May 30, 2009 at 5:56 am |
More repackaged pseudo-rational cherry-picking presented as insight.
None of the reasons stand up under differential diagnosis, because there are ways to be Christian and still reject the things you rejected.
1. God of material exegesis and bibliolatry only. Not all Christians claim the Bible is infallible and/or should be interpreted non-metaphorically.
2. Misunderstanding of the “Son of God” concept, common in Christian churches. Also, look up the word “apocatastasis.” Or just “Universalism.”
3. Expecting the Cause of Existence to always do what you think is right is also an irrational (and infantile) cop-out.
4. See #1
5. God is not invisible, unless you expect special evidence for a general Cause. This argument (employed to opposite effect by simplistic believers) is like doubting the existence of a network because you haven’t seen a station identification. The program itself is the evidence.
6-14. See #1. (Christianity does not have to equal Bible-worship and materialistic interpretation.)
15. That’s also the reason most people believe in most things, including things like sharing, not hitting each other, wearing clothes, not running into traffic, civil rights, medicine, and the importance of reason itself.
16. This list of excuses for rejecting Christianity also has little rational foundation.
17. Science is driven by peer review and contest, in other words by not agreeing with each other. Democracy is all about contesting each other’s position. So is every sport, every business, pretty much everything we do. By your logic, you reject almost everything Homo sapiens does. Good luck with that.
18. Rather than pointing out the distinction between the “nominal” and “practical” applications of the term “Christian” (and the variety of soteriological positions among Christians on the moral potential of non-Christians) I will ask for evidence: where is the peer-reviewed research demonstrating your claim?
19. Today, powerful leaders in every sector of society abuse their power. See #17
20. SEE NUMBER 1
I am not trying to argue in favor of being a Christian here, before anyone jumps to that irrational conclusion.
I am trying to show how so much of this “wow, I just realized why religion is bad” stuff is just recycled atheist propaganda — consisting mostly of incredibly silly categorical fallacies, ignorance of the subject matter, and pathetically unexamined conclusions — put forth as a pseudo-rational facade for what is, underneath it all, nothing but a brutish, instinctual social desire to identify with a “cooler” troops of monkeys.
May 30, 2009 at 8:56 am |
Your theory is I gave up religion to be cooler? With who, an online group of virtual “cooler” friends?
My wife, my extended family, and virtually all of my friends are devoted Christians. I gained nothing socially by this and it was a very difficult struggle for me. So the theory that I’m trying to identify with people is silly. The only reason I started this blog was to have discussions just like this with people from all sides. I don’t have that opportunity with my personal troop of monkeys.
May 30, 2009 at 4:28 pm |
Be,
I don’t know you, but I do see a common thread between atheists and skeptics. A lot of people are turned off by religion. And they should be, man made religion is not something that God intended. He asks for you to give your whole self. He makes Himself known to those that are totally and completely His. Practicing religion is nothing more than a social club and leaves you with lot’s of questions. Not all people in watered down denominations are living apart from God but most of the posts of atheists that I am aware of come from Lutheran, Episcopal, Catholic and independent Baptist denominations. They have been hurt or left wanting to know the truth about God. I came from a liberal Church of Christ background and grew up in sunday school never having heard the truth about Jesus Christ. He was more than a good teacher. More than a friend, more than the good Shepard, He was God. And He came to show us God, you will never find the true God apart from His Son, Jesus Christ. Don’t look to fallen man to see God.
A sincere heart that seeks God, finds God.
May 30, 2009 at 5:59 am |
Brought up in a culture out of organized religion, I understand your views. How can a man be a sinner right from the birth? And calling everyone out as a sinner, isn’t that hypocrisy? The ‘holy’ books of my place admit the point: All such books are written by mankind themselves. All beliefs and rituals are man-made. And most importantly, those so called Sins and Punishments too are the same. So believer or non-believer in God or in a specific religion, you are no different. It’s what you do that counts not what you believe.
May 30, 2009 at 6:06 am |
I don’t believe in the God you don’t believe in, too.
In Christ,
Luca.
May 30, 2009 at 6:14 am |
Some extremely interesting views here.
I have very much enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions, despite the fact that arguing logically over something that is inherently illogical is utterly pointless. Religion requires faith and faith requires one to abandon the need for proof and to some extent understanding. I not not think that the benefits of religion (whatever they may be, I am honestly incapable of naming even one) outweigh the losses of freedom and logic that can be retained with non-theism.
May 30, 2009 at 6:18 am |
Good points, I was raised as a Catholic and no longer consider myself to be so however you have reached the polar extreme of rejecting religion.
I like you have no interest in accepting the words of other people as the words of God however….you are also not in a position to answer any of the above questions.
We as humans are extremely limited and for us to answer such complex questions is impossible, because we cannot process the information and cannot in our lifetimes learn enough to give a definite answer.
People often go through life thinking they’re extremely clever but have never challenged themselves or really forced themselves to try to expand their knowledge.
For example, play some chess, see if you can figure out the best move or the best candidate move. If you can’t do something as simple as that (which most people cannot) what business do you or any of us have questioning something we have no capability to understand.
If the earth was 1 degree closer or further away from the Sun, life would not exist. There are extremely complex structures and laws in the universe that we are only beginning to discover. Our thoughts and emotions are not physical.
I can think and so can you yet you cannot prove what the other person is really thinking, they need to tell you.
Atheism is just faith that there is no higher intelligent force. I cannot understand what God is or is not, but I can deal with it. I have no idea what happens after we die, just as every other person alive.
When you understand the answers to many aspects of our lives you do not have knowledge of and would need to be educated to understand, then you would understand that answers are not available to you just because you want them, just like you cannot read Chinese without being educated about how the Chinese alphabet works.
Do you understand everything there is on this planet. You can’t? If you cannot understand the whole you have insufficient data to be able to answer the questions you pose.
And I seriously recommend chess, it is completely logical and you will lose many of your games because you will make blunders, then perhaps you will understand how incapable we all are of answering even some of the most simple of questions let alone the more complex ones.
May 30, 2009 at 6:20 am |
Nicely articulated post. It’s good to see someone having an honest discussion about their beliefs. We need more introspection in the world – more so than religion – to find common ground, balance our senses and strive for peace.
I look forward to reading more from you.
May 30, 2009 at 6:30 am |
on number 7, you spelled effect wrong.
May 30, 2009 at 6:43 am |
I do not know what branch or denomination you have fallen from, but if it taught you the 20 points you list, it is good you escaped. This is why the bible says the teachers shall be twice judged.
Your church may have spouted that crap, but that has nothing to do with Jesus. I have rarely seen such a compilation of distortion.
BEattitude, the only fairness in the whole mess is that the warped know-it-alls, who passed this garble of mind-warp on to you and so many commenters here, will someday stand before He in Whom you do not believe, and will realize that they screwed up a perfectly good person by spouting their own self serving garbage.
Too bad you never tried the real thing.
May 30, 2009 at 6:44 am |
I’m a believer, but I’m NOT about to slam you for your decision. All I want to ask is this: have you ever considered that the problems you have with God may actually be problems with Christianity itself? Before you made this choice, did you ever think about trying to pursue God your way instead of the church’s way?
Christianity is NOT the authority on God or the Bible – it’s simply an attempt to make sense of the message. But sometimes what we end up worshiping are its rules and ideals, not God Himself. The things the church tells us about God, about how to please Him, about the Bible, about who we are and how we are to see ourselves – they’re not guaranteed to be correct.
I’ve been struggling with the questions you did, but my conclusion has been to try to find my own way of seeking God. I do believe He exists, but I refuse to be tied to a single, narrow-minded view of Him that breeds pride, hatred, naïvety, and illogic. (Yes, God is NOT the enemy of logic, but Christians have made Him appear to be. Why does believing in God have to mean doubting science, for example?) I don’t think you have to be a Christian to be a follower of Christ. “Christian” is only a label. Even Jesus had a problem with organized religion; I’m not sure He really would be pleased with Christianity.
A book I used to sort my feeling out was “10 Things Your Minister Wants to Tell You (But Can’t Because He Needs the Job)” by Rev. Oliver Thomas.
May 30, 2009 at 7:47 am |
i second your opinion
May 30, 2009 at 6:54 pm |
i totally agree with you!!
May 30, 2009 at 7:04 am |
I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic schools, but have since walked away.
I don’t claim to know what there is.
My plan is just to live my live correctly, do the right thing as often as I can, and see what happens when I “cross the line” one day.
May 30, 2009 at 7:05 am |
I totally agree. Why is Christianity such a common religion? Most Christian beliefs are completely illogical.
May 30, 2009 at 7:08 am |
You can claim you have some sort of intellectual argument against Christianity, but you and I both know that if could show you logically that Jesus lived, died, and rose again you would not repent or receive Him as your Savior. You don’t have an intellectual problem with God, you just love your sin so much you HOPE there isn’t a God.
May 30, 2009 at 7:35 am |
Maybe you could show us that Jesus lived and died…. rose again? Im not so sure. Jesus was an amazing person. He had some profound insight on the world. But I think Christianity has warped him into this celestial being instead of a man who looked at the world, like some of us do, and was disgusted by it. I live in a society where if you speak out about certain things you could get killed. Jamaica is very hostile when it comes to religion. People use it as an excuse not get up and fight the overwhelming corruption in the country. They just say “God will handle it” or something to that effect, and the few of us who realize how messed up it is are afraid to speak out because of Christian fanaticism. (sorry for the long comment, as this has been stored up in my mind for years)
May 30, 2009 at 10:29 am |
How do we know anything in History happened? Based on reliable historical writings. Josephus in his “Antiquities” and Tacitus in his “Annals” both talks about the Jesus of the Bible. Roman soldiers don’t mess up crucifixions, he definitely died on that cross.
The only question worth having an intellectual argument over is whether Jesus actually rose, not whether he lived. Luke is a historical narrative written by a doctor, Paul was a brilliant philosopher and respected member of society. Both of these men agree Jesus appeared to many witnesses after his resurrection. Why didn’t they say Jesus only appeared to the 1 or 2 people? So readers could go back and verify their claims. Paul was not a cult leader who demanded people take him at his word but liked it when people verified his claims (Acts 17:11).
June 1, 2009 at 2:10 pm |
“if could show you logically that Jesus lived, died, and rose again.”
I can’t wait to see the logic.
May 30, 2009 at 7:10 am |
Thank you for this interesting entry. It hit home with me. I never was a Christian, but the events that happened in my life thus far only made me drive away from Christianity. I can also relate to several points you listed which made you fall away. I am glad I am not the only one to feel that way.
Also, my biggest pet peeve in life are uber-religious people who have nothing better to do than trying to proseletyze me. *grrrrrr*
Thanks for this post!!
May 30, 2009 at 7:16 am |
I am sad to read your take on Christianity and can understand some of your points but what I think is that you never had the chance to experience God’s love and mercy and failed to see his face in the many ways he manifest to us on a daily basis. Never judge the church by the actions of imperfect humans who claim to be Christians, only God is perfect and many of the bad things that happen to us is by our own hands, not his. God bless you.
May 30, 2009 at 7:19 am |
This is one of the smartest, most calmly argued and well-written post to have made it to the WordPress Dashboard/ Homepage. Kudos to you on your moral courage and intellectual honesty.
May 30, 2009 at 7:24 am |
I love this blog. I agree most of the said in this blog. Just people are like zombie mass. They blindly follow what their friends & others do, just because they do & they never think about its’ concepts. They go to the church because it’s in fashion now (anyway in my country). In my country 90% of people are blind orthodox Christians, sadly. But it’s their business. I just don’t wanna be puppet & I never worship something that isn’t even proved. Just believe in what you see & is real. Not in some stupid tales…
May 30, 2009 at 7:27 am |
Hey Beattitude,
Thanks for sharing your story and thoughts. I too have tried to walk down the path you have at times in my faith but could not for one very subtle reason that runs through all your reasons for rejecting God; MORAL LANGUAGE.
In many of your reasons you speak of sadistic behavior, atrocities, hateful, unholy, cruel, behavior in regards to God. But yet you are drawing from a well you no longer say your believe in. Your new found atheism/agnosticism has no capital to make moral claims. All of these moral words you just used imply an objective ought, standards of behavior that are good and bad, right and wrong. Yet by what standard are you evaluating these things?
If it is only your personal preference than it is not a moral at all it is only you telling what you like, kind of like you sharing with us your favorite flavor at Baskin Robbins.
If you embraced moral relativism then you also cannot call anything an atrocity or hateful, instead it is just their culture and their values. Genocide is no longer morally reprehensible but just what other cultures have chosen to value. As soon as you use such strong moral language you are drawing from your former Christian belief system that you claim to no longer believe in.
Now I am not saying you cannot do good or act in a law abiding manner toward others, but you must surrender moral outrage as it is now just what you personally prefer.
May 31, 2009 at 2:41 am |
this is a difficult subject to post, and i admire and respect your willingness to present it; however, – and please don’t take this in a condescending manner – you don’t mention having sought out answers or explanations to these issues. and although i’d like to have all the answers, i’m not going to sit here and try to “debunk” all these over-emphasized, topical, atheistic, arguments for you, so please don’t ask to do that like i know someone who wants a copout would. let me say again, this is not an attack or a criticism. i respect you and want to encourage you towards action. all i can say is that every one of the issues you’ve mentioned i have encountered and come to understand reasons for them for myself. i’d say one of my strengths is input. i always want information. i’m always reading (hence this blog). always writing. always thinking. i have intentionally sought out viable explanations for these difficult topics and have come to some conclusions on my own; quite opposite from you, i might interject, these explanations and answers have only strengthened my belief in a creator God and have expanded my sense of “awe” at his majesty. you must admit that the world, as we know it, is biased. biased in the sense that the media spouts liberalism (more so then conservatism), the public school system spouts liberalism and secularism to children, and thus atheistic arguments and bias-ness run rampant in our society, so your viewpoint is legitimized and supported whole-heartedly by the community. Christianity is a minority (and i mean true life-transforming, worldview-changing Christianity, not fake nominal Christians that go to church every Sunday out of habit). look back at the posts to this blog… you have most everyone’s support. an accurate representation of american culture and priorities.
May 30, 2009 at 7:29 am |
It’s clear you’ve confused TRADITIONAL Christianity with biblical Christianity and the two are worlds apart. Your failure to grasp why God does this or that (like the sacrifices that are rich in meaning) or patiently seek out answers or prayerfully consider Scripture like the noble Bereans condemns you to jump to conclusions that are dangerous and misleading and so apparently you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It’s good to ask questions but we need faith and patience. I have many questions, concerns, but attempt to hold fast to what I do know for sure, while waiting for answers to things I’m not so sure about.
“All that I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all that I have not seen.”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
Lose your religion and find God’s religion. It’s there – hidden in plain sight.
May 30, 2009 at 7:29 am |
What a fabulous & concise commentary on religion. I was lucky to never really have been indoctrinated into religion, except as much as it’s simply ubiquitous in our culture. Even so, I went through my own awakening as a result of being in a relationship with someone who was involved in AA’s 12-step program.
I also became involved in Al-Anon, and therefore started really thinking about the question of a higher power. I just could never resolve that satisfactorily, and I couldn’t get around it, so I left Al-Anon and continued my searching and analysis of religion in general.
It’s become a subject I’m endlessly fascinated by, but purely from a psychological, sociological, and historical perspective. Basically, the more I find out about the major religions, the more horrified I am that people continue to propagate these archaic & delusional beliefs.
Thanks for your wonderful perspective. It really encourages me to see that people can overcome this kind of indoctrination and begin to think for themselves. Maybe there’s hope for the world, after all.
May 30, 2009 at 7:30 am |
points 12 & 19 are why I’m relieved there is a God who will judge.
May 30, 2009 at 7:31 am |
Wow.. that’s quite a jump.
Myself, I feel the workings of grace everyday (something higher than just being jovial or having an endorphin rush) so try to separate the spiritual from the cultural and the biochemical… be that in daily life or at a particular church. For me it’s a way of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater…
Best luck on your journey. I imagine that God appreciates your honesty.
May 30, 2009 at 7:34 am |
christianity is foobar, it falls on itself. there is no need to even try arguing it is not true + x .
May 30, 2009 at 7:36 am |
First article I’ve read of yours and I agree with everything you’re saying. I gave up religion years ago because it was not only full of prejudice and bigotry, but it never moved me at all. I found it boring and tastless. I’ve taught myself to inherently doubt certain things (or myths have you) that have been beaten into my head since I was a kid.
In fact, I get a kick of mocking Christianity in the stories I write. I’m going to have to read your blog more.
May 30, 2009 at 7:37 am |
it’s all because you are walking in your spiritual journey with Jesus Christ without the true understanding.
May 30, 2009 at 7:37 am |
I found God through science. When I studied the electron transport chain in mitochondria, where little lollipop structures “pull” electrons off of the atp molecules that have been reduced from glucose sugar and cause the electrical energy that is life in a cell, I realized that this can be no accident.
When I learned about “zero-point” energy between atoms, I exclaimed, “There is so much we don’t know! It’s crazy to think we understand everything!” (I am a chemistry teacher.)
When God allowed me to be disappointed in my marriage, I grew. And I learned a different kind of Christianity. I tried to put the magnitude of a Creator! into a box. I am enjoying the journey, and I hope you do too. You sound very sad and disappointed, and I can relate to that. Best Wishes.
May 30, 2009 at 6:40 pm |
Which God did you find through science? Because I heard that Loki made the mitochondria.
May 30, 2009 at 6:58 pm |
BLASPHEMER! Mighty Thor is the father of mitochondria, not your pathetic trickster god.
May 30, 2009 at 7:41 am |
Seemingly born (of women, all of us) with a desire to experience what is greater than ourselves, after so many centuries of man-made trauma in the name of He, Him and hymn, I would propose we not jump straight into male-centric atheism, which your blog represents by its over-focus on men, he and him.
Your language and images are telling. Instead, try on the Goddess for awhile, She, Sophia, Shekina, in whose name war is not waged. Goddess and God posts at the blog abaout man’s longest war, the undeclared (but obvious, once you have eyes to see) war by man against womankind: http://thelongestwar.wordpress.com/.
May 30, 2009 at 7:41 am |
There is no point to judge the Creater as you are not all the mighty.No one is perfect.Please believe the Judgement Day will soon arrived.
May 30, 2009 at 7:47 am |
I was taught in ever Sunday school class I ever took, all throughout my confirmation, and in every Bible study lesson that nobody is perfect, except god. God is supposed to be perfect.
May 30, 2009 at 7:43 am |
I am not sure whether to say congratulations for figuring things out for you and your spirituality (or lack thereof as I didn’t see you actually say you had atheistic views) or I am sorry that you went through this revelation. I came to Christianity in my early 20’s and I never really figured out why I ever did. I ended up coming to grips with my own spirituality about 6 years ago and left behind what I had tried hard to force.
My question for you is, how are you handling your family life? You mention you are a husband and father. How is your wife handling this? Is she Christian? And do you have any plans in place for talking to your kids about this? I think that it would make for a great post to talk about how this decision affects your family and how your getting through it.
May 30, 2009 at 9:04 am |
It very much affects my family. My wife is still a Christian and takes my children to church every week. She even drags me along once and a while.
It’s up to my kids to decide what they believe. They are only 5 and 2, so it’s too early to go there. And it isn’t worth putting a wedge into my marriage.
I will have to do a post on the subject.
May 30, 2009 at 7:44 am |
Great post, I also recently went through a transition to abandoning faith in the light of reason (blogged about it if you’re interested).
I especially liked this one:
6. God never manifests himself or performs miracles as he regularly did for the Israelites in Old Testament stories.
That’s something I hadn’t heard before, but it’s so true. When you point out that if there were a God wouldn’t we actually see some miracles? Faithful people point to things like coincidences and happy outcomes as miracles but that’s not how it worked in the Bible, so why wouldn’t it be the same today?
I was reading through some of the comments on this post from believers and it’s funny now after having abandoned one’s religion how silly their arguments for the existence of god are. When I was a Christian I would have used the same arguments, but they don’t hold up to logic. People of faith are able to compartmentalize what they’ve been cajoled to believe so that that part of their mind isn’t subject to the same critical thought as the rest.
May 30, 2009 at 11:18 pm |
God used miracles and manifestations of himself because the Bible had not been written. The Bible replaced those things as God’s revelation of Himself to us.
This is why rejecting the Bible is the starting point for every atheist and agnostic, and those who argue logic and reason to explain away spiritual matters.
June 1, 2009 at 12:15 am |
Oh, so it’s like J.D. Salinger. God writes books, becomes famous, then goes into hiding. Neat.
May 30, 2009 at 7:44 am |
hello sir
i’m glad as well as sad that you have found your peace yet rejecting the Lord i believe in
i have raised in multi cultural and multi religion environment, that i am glad i can respect other people faith. i’m Christian since born, and i had questioned the same stuff that made you gave up on Christianity.
i found out that it such a personal, really personal experience that made me understand why having Jesus as the Lord is really the best thing to have in life.
why our God is better and why the others don’t? well, i am particularly not a person to answer that question, since what i believe that my God is uncamparable. but what i got from your entry is that you concern more on the boundaries religions have, you concern more on the rituals and punishment that mentioned in the bible.
human willl always make mistakes, thus we do need some lecture and punishments sometime to open our eyes to develope into a better human.
i think what led you to the final conclusion was because from the very start you were concern more on the rituals rather than the core of the Christianity itself. therefore, when you find that the rituals are similar with some others religions, you think that Christianity is not as attractive and exclusive as it was before.
ps: a Christian does not have to have christian religion. that’s two different things
May 30, 2009 at 7:48 am |
Having reached your conclusion and acted on it, you need to consider other issues.
The first is – Is there a Creator of the Universe? If there is then that entity needs to be understood for your own benefit!
If you are sure that there is no Creator or Intelligent Being who created the Universe, then you are presumably going down the path of everything being a product of pure, random chance – which we know of as Evolution.
But Evolution is a faith in it’s own right! There is no evidence that the Universe and everything in it was created by chance, and that you and I are simply products of pure chance – so it is as much a religion as any of the others!
But if we are the products of evolution and if we simply cease to exist at death, then it doesn’t matter what you do in life, it doesn’t matter who you kill, hurt, maim or steal from (provided you don’t get caught!) because you don’t have to account to anyone after your life. But you cannot complain when other people treat you in a similar way!
There really is no such thing as an atheist! Everybody believes in something!
June 8, 2009 at 7:58 pm |
Evolution is not purely based on chance. In fact, the primary tenant of evolution, natural selection, is quite the opposite of pure chance. Also, belief does not equal faith. Faith is belief without evidence. The belief put into the scientific method is because of its rigorous capacity to gather and analyze evidence and data. And of course there’s such thing as an Athiest; you can not believe in God and still believe in other philosophies or modes of reasoning.
May 30, 2009 at 7:52 am |
I disagree with the statement that prayer has no effect on the world around us. Prayer is meditation.
May 30, 2009 at 9:07 am |
Meditation doesn’t miraculously affect the world. It has health benefits, but that’s about it.
May 30, 2009 at 7:52 am |
This post was featured on the log-in page at WP today, and having gone through the same experience myself, I of course just had to read what you said.
And it doesn’t surprise me that so many of the comments blame you for the loss of faith. One absolute tenet of being a believer is that there is never anything wrong with the religious belief — it’s always the believer’s ‘fault’. Very, very handy, don’t you think? I’ve heard the same rationale from Marxists, Mormons, Muslims, oh, you name any idealogue and they’re all depressingly identical.
I was very similar — very devout, believed God was infusing and moving in my life, I had missionary plans, all the usual fundie stuff. But it was when I began to realize how self-contradictory the Bible was (which it absolutely wasn’t supposed to be, if divinely inspired) that I started begging God to show me the answers. I had a six-month struggle during which it felt like the earth was literally quaking under my feet, and the sun was black, and there was an abyss stretching in front of me.
One thing fundies absolutely need is to blame you, and say that you secretly wanted to leave the faith and “rebel,” which would again make it your fault and not allow questions about the faith itself.
So of course they can’t acknowledge that some of us actually didn’t want to discover that what we’d been trained to believe all our lives wasn’t true. Because if we actually wanted to remain Christians but were forced by our discoveries to acknowledge that the religion wasn’t true — then blam. There goes the foundation and the best weapon the fundies have.
But after those six black months, I came out the other side, and discovered myself to be free. I didn’t have to look at the world, filtered through the “package of beliefs” I’d been handed. I could look at the world itself, and make my own judgements about it. And only then did I realize what a juvenile state of dependency I’d been kept in. I finally became an adult, and have been so, now, for 20 years.
And have never regretted it, nor been tempted to enslave myself again.
There is something absolutely exhilarating about knowing that you can’t fob off the responsibility for your life onto anyone else now. For 20 years, the phrase “I am the Captain of my Soul” has given me goosebumps. It never stops being wonderful.
Good luck and congratulations! If you ever want to share experiences or get encouragement, please contact me.
May 30, 2009 at 7:56 am |
You have documented all the questions i always asked myself. I entirely agree with you and what this search does to us.
May 30, 2009 at 7:59 am |
Wow, that’s harsh nelsonleith- i doubt the blogger secretly wants to be with the cooler troop of monkeys you talk about- as for recycled atheist propaganda or not, you must remember that for those of us who grew up with a strict indoctrination instead of a more flexible one, each and every one of those ‘old hat’ statements is like your house is on fire and your family has died. Most of these things are news to us because we were brainwashed, both on purpose and by accident, through fear, lies, and good intention- doesn’t matter. They don’t call it ‘crisis of faith’ for nothing, and when your paradigm starts to crack open, it can be terrifying or worse, embarrassing and humiliating. Then you feel disconnected from everything you ‘ve known, because in one way or another, your faith defined different parts of your life. So go easy on this dude for baring his soul. The things that may seem like basic arguements are news to us- for example, reading the Bible this year was brand new to me as I searched for truth after it began to slip. I had never read the Bible before from the perspective of an uncertain or unbeliever, and all those stories of God’s genocides were suddenly vicious and immoral. I couldn’t see it that way before if I saw it at all- that ‘he’s so big and I’m so small’ glaze kept me from deciding the obvious- it’s sin to commit genocide. Today I liken this to Hitler and the Germans or any other dictatorship where the people believe the leader must have a good plan or know more, and they unbelievably carry it out or allow it and keep silence. Today we still allow God to rape virgins, sacrifice children, etc, because he is ’so holy’ that we can’t know. Then there’s the genuine terror of hell, which is kind of like post traumatic stress disorder. Fearing torment and torture even the most rational mind goes irrational.
Then of course it somehow wasn’t racist to believe we were born CHristian because God was blessing us and looking out for us, even as he committed other cultures’ kids to hell for being born in another heathen religion! That he wasn’t looking out for the millions was not clear even when we sang “jesus loves the little children…all the children of the world…” Today my parents still believe that they would have found Jesus even if they were born in Pakistan or Iceland or Cameroon. That’s why God sent missionaries…it makes sense that when those missionaries came and tortured them, they would have converted too…
Anyhow, to the blogger, it wasn’t long ago that I wrote a piece with the same title- but I didn’t see all those points yet until after it happened, yes, when I picked up Dawkins, Hitchens, etc because I had never read anything so heathen. But before it happened, it was because I encountered some heinous people who called themselves CHristians, and though it wasn’t the first time, the dam broke. I started looking through history to find the messengers of the gospel- found Calvin was a woman-killer, found that Christians then and now destroy burn and deny literature and art and that THAT is why we are Christian, because other paths were destroyed. History goes to the victor. It’s all just war, just like the O.T. IT’s not missions, it’s conquest and destroy and re-program the people, usually through torture.
http://thegirlcanwrite.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/my-crisis-of-faith-farewell-to-god/
Warning to anyone who might want to read it, it’s long, and disturbing- but if you are having a crisis, well, so am I.
xoxox
Lorette
May 30, 2009 at 8:01 am |
[...] May 30, 2009 · No Comments i’ve linked to this site before, and recently as well!!!! anyhooo, here is an article about someone who used to be very christian and has now given up the faith! [...]
May 30, 2009 at 8:03 am |
Congratulations. It is always refreshing to see someone pass their inherited mythology, and trade God for good. Don’t loose sight of the value in metaphor, and remember to respect those who are not ready to admit their unknowing. Don’t be turned off from all thoughts of divinity. You will find your own way to the One.
May 30, 2009 at 8:05 am |
While I’m sorry for the painful rebirth you likely had to go through, let me just say: Bravo! I’m glad you successfully waded your way through your religious upbringing as many of us had to.
I’m glad you now think for yourself and that your own intellectual curiosity led you to finally see religion for what it is. What you went through is what makes free-thought so much better than the beliefs of the world; it is never forced on you, you come to it yourself. Sometimes I think that breaking free of forced religious upbringing is a test we all have to face before we can become truly human and work on dragging mankind out of it’s philosophical dark age.
Again, Bravo!
May 30, 2009 at 8:10 am |
I hate to admit it to myself, but really, I don’t do what i do because i’m a Christian, but vice-versa. I’m a Christian simply because lots of what they do happens to coincide with what i do normally (i’m naturally quite a helpful person, non-violent etc.)
Number 2 in that list has been bothering me for a while now; as far as i can tell, this means I’m too compassionate to be a Christian, as i cannot conceive of how a God who supposedly loves everyone can do this to people who don’t know about Jesus… And, how, when this was talked about in my church a short while ago, when the pastor said “But we’re saved, isn’t that wonderful”, everyone else in the church agreed with him, whilst i sat there with tears streaming down my face saying “No. It’s not good enough.”
The only reason i really go to church nowadays is because it would be too much hassle to tell my mother why i don’t want to go any more, and also losing the friends i’ve made there. That, apparently, is what my religion is based on…
May 30, 2009 at 8:11 am |
I am so sorry that you have experienced God in this way. It wasn’t the way it was supposed to be. True Christianity is not built around any religion, it is built around freedom in Christ. My heart is broken for your past experience with the church, we are certainly messed up and don’t have it together. I do not think we ever will. As you know, we were born with sin and because of that we will always mess up, even the most deep Christian struggles.
The church I grew up in had a lot of “religion” and everyone always seemed to be doing “fine”. I had a lot of searching to do before I found the true God who says, come to me, all messed up, and I will give you rest and freedom and love.
God never desires us to be completely perfect. I beleive by Him sending Jesus down to die on the cross for our sins, this was the ultimate sacrifice of love. Then to be raised 3 days later is amazing. We are the only religion who serves a living God. A God who deeply desires to know us intimately.
I wish you luck on your spiritual journey. I would love to talk to you more about it.
May 30, 2009 at 8:18 am |
The problem is not with Christianity. It’s with people. In general – all religious people are practically brainwashed. Not to mention – if something [like religion] bans you from asking questions [generally speaking], then its application changes drastically.
I consider myself religion-free, even though I was raised as an Orthodox Christian. I repeat once more – my problem is with Christians, not with “believing”. There is a logical explanation about everything. Most of the people comprehend “logical” and “divine” as two opposite things. I believe in “God”, nature, higher power, or whatever humanity decides to name it, but I don’t believe in “people’s vocabulary” when it comes to religious persuasion.
The whole idea of “persuading” someone into faith, sounds like one big porno piece
May 30, 2009 at 8:26 am |
Oooo boy. I would have NEVER stumbled upon this had wordpress not “featured” it. You’ve got to be shocked by the response huh? Some of your videos are funny and of course push the envelope of hypocrisy. But it’s cool. I think God has humor too. But today, and for a while, you are where you are in your faith. Honestly, IF you once believed in Jesus – then you still believe in Jesus. Just like you believe in broccoli…but just because you don’t like it anymore, doesn’t mean it ceased to exist. Odd analogy – but it’s what I got on the fly. Anyhoo, you’re just a bit tired of “it”, and it’s feeling like a crazy thing… I hope (pray) you come back to the club.
May 30, 2009 at 8:26 am |
I can really relate to this post. I grew up surrounded by Satanism and tried for the longest time to find the peace I’ve searched for in the more mainstream religions. In the end, though, the god of Christianity and Judaism (not really informed about others) sounded much more like an abusive parent than a saviour. Perhaps I’m wrong and some horrible thing will happen after death. For now, though, any belief I put forth would be a lie. Thanks for putting this into words for those of us who’ve struggled with it as well.
May 30, 2009 at 8:27 am |
I think what speaks to me deeply here, is how you said that you felt a weight off of your shoulders once you gave up Christianity. In my opinion, religions and spirituality should make a person feel lighter/feel connected – not burdened with dogma and certain beliefs. It’s unbelievably sad how much brainwashing occurs because of popular religion.
I also believe that prayer wasn’t designed for some other ‘being’ out there to answer me or fix my problems. I feel that prayer was designed for introspection of a problem…perhaps even asking another part of myself to ’sleep on it’ and to fix the problem myself.
All the best,
K
May 30, 2009 at 8:27 am |
He will never let go brother.
And when you need Him, He will still be there.
http://phonicmatrix.wordpress.com
May 30, 2009 at 8:28 am |
Dear BEattitude,
One never truly lives unless one constantly questions, so you do well to question your faith.
Faith is personal, but based on my experience I have to say that for 33 years you missed the point of following Christ if guilt and lack of joy were the result. The entire point of following Christ is to be released from guilt and experience joy both now and throughout eternity.
The fact that Christians are no better people as a whole than non-Christians is also a given. Being holy means to dedicate oneself to God and His work, it doesn’t mean being “better than” anyone. It’s a goal, not a gift. People are people. That’s why we need the gift of grace. To reject that gift because you see others misusing it is something else you should question.
May 30, 2009 at 9:12 am |
Thoughtful response, Diane. I find that my attitude toward religion can be summed up in the same way another commenter put it: I have no problem with Jesus, it’s his fan club that gets on my nerves.
You’re the rarity, in my decades-long experience. Religionists of all stripes are too-frequently strident in their relentless quest to sign up “sinners”.
My reading of the 1st Amendment also allows freedom FROM religion. Which is where I, and my own very personal spirituality, will stand our ground.
May 30, 2009 at 8:29 am |
http://aisosa.wordpress.com/page/5/
reasons why i love being a Christian..sounds like u need to check urself again.
May 30, 2009 at 8:29 am |
Hey, I’m happy to see you getting such a great response on this post. Your work has always been great.
As far as leaving Christianity for Atheism…well, I’m not far behind you.
May 30, 2009 at 8:30 am |
I have just recently finished reading, “The Problem of Pain” by C.S. Lewis, and I believe that if you were actually living the truth of Christianity and not just professing to be a part of the truth, you would have never come to the conclusions that you came to. God is Love and the world is paying for the ways in which it tried to go along without God. In as far as you continue to live the rest of your life with no faith in God, I feel deep sorrow for you. I lived the first 19 years of my life with only a faith in my ability to be a good person, and the reality is, I failed. We all fall short and that is what relying on the will of God can help save you from. It won’t save you from calamity, but it will help save you from yourself. In closing, if you ever tried completely immersing yourself in the love of the Father and not concentrating on the vengeful God that you have obviously been fixated on for some time, you would see that God is Love. Don’t run from the truth, seek it out in all things. Not just comments that make you look good from the atheists crowd, but real truth…God Bless…Jason
May 30, 2009 at 8:30 am |
By some weird coincidence I happened to stumble upon this post, and it really bothered and frustrated me. You say you used to believe in God, but you didn’t. You didn’t because you don’t even know the real God. How can you believe in him if you don’t know the real God?
I say you have not understood God or the gospel yet because all the reasons you give come from an misunderstanding of the bible. You have tried to comprehend the bible and God through the limited scope of the human perspective and emotions. But God is unlimited. He is perfect. He is whole. He is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.
But I do understand where all your points come from. If I did not know the gospel, I would have been swayed, too. But here’s my rebuttal to your points:
Us humans are born sinners. Even if we didn’t do anything particularly wicked, we are dirty and sinful because of the original sin from Adam. God actually made humans in His image to live IN Him. Just as the fish can only live in the water, we can only live in God.
But because of the Genesis 3 problem, all mankind has left God, thus they are in such horrible suffering and pain from war, famine, mental and physical illnesses, etc. God did not make it happen. Man made that happen by leaving God first.
But God, in His agape love, provided a solution for us which is Jesus Christ. Because we’re sinners and God is just and righteous, we need to die for our sins. But God provided Christ to die instead for us. We cannot understand this with our human mind because such selfless love is uncomprehendable.
But again, God did not choose every single being in the world to be His child. Only those who were chosen will be able to accept the gospel and believe in it. And it isn’t our place, as mere creations, to question God about this. God could have left us all to perish. But the fact that He was willing to die for us is what we need to be eternally grateful for.
God never asked for human sacrifices. Please get your facts right. But He did ask for animal sacrifice. The blood is to symbolize Christ’s death for us. God allows sacrifice on animals because the sole purpose of creating animals is to serve us humans anyway.
God is invisible because again, He only chose a select few to be His children. If everyone could see God, then everyone would HAVE to believe in Him. Also, if God can be seen, He won’t be a God anymore.
God doesn’t perform miracles as He did anymore because He doesn’t need to. In the Old Testament there was no Holy Spirit for people to feel the presence of God. They needed the prophets to deliver the word of God, and they needed to see miracles in order to see God’s power and presence. Even so, God only performed miracles during special circumstances when He needed to.
Prayers absolutely have effect. But many people misuse prayer. Prayer is not about asking a genie for wishes to be granted. It is a personal communication with God, to hear Him and be guided by Him, to maintain our peace and happiness in Him. It is absolutely effective and powerful and necessary. I have personally experienced the wonderful effects of prayer, but probably not in the way you think it should be.
ALL of the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled. You can ask any theology scholar about this.
Even after Jesus Christ’s death, He is still present in the form of the Holy Spirit. People can still experience Him through the spirit. Thus people can still write about him even after His “death.”
Unfortunately, when people misunderstand the bible, they misuse it. They use it to justify their own cruelty and actions. All throughout history, people have manipulated God’s words to serve their own purposes. Also, Christians are still humans. They are still weak. They still sometimes fail in moral and ethical judgments. Such are the Christians who have not truly grasped the gospel. These people may know about God, but they sure don’t live according to God’s purpose and will.
The bible is not archaic. It holds infinite wisdom, layers and layers of insights and revelations. That is why people may interpret the same verse in different ways. That is how deep the bible is. But only those with the Holy Spirit in them can understand it and enjoy the amazing power and wisdom that comes from the bible.
I am sorry you feel this way about Christianity. But I do think you have gotten it all wrong.
May 30, 2009 at 8:31 am |
Congratulations and welcome to the world of free thinkers. This was a wonderful post and it’s always joyous to hear when others realize that salvation comes from within, not God. Much happiness, freedom and love to you.
May 30, 2009 at 8:32 am |
Try listening to this album – “Why I Believe” by Chip Ingram. He I experienced what you’ve experienced several years ago. But somehow, after I studied things, I came back to Christianity. It just seemed that a Creator is inevitable (^Michael had a good commentary on that) and that the God of the Bible is the only logical Creator that could exist.
It seems you are angry at the order that Christianity is imposing. The Bible is actually continually misinterpreted. This “God is wrathful, blah blah blah” should be read in context. What was the world order then? Of course people who wrote in those times would be writing with influence of what actually was happening then. That is why you saw that God is sexist or unjust. I say, never take the Bible very literally because it wasn’t written like that! And it seems that a lot of your reasons were actually about the “believers” and not the “belief”. Christians are not perfect. In fact there are a lot of pseudo-Christians. Observing what they do should not affect how you see Christianity because they themselves could be mistaken.
I read your background, and this is the sad part. You started within the religion that’s why you were TRYING to convince yourself to believe it. In my case, I just let the facts convince me, I was never devout before that. In fact I was agnostic. That’s why you are feeling so relieved, not because you finally gave up Christianity.
Don’t close your mind yet, sir. Actually, I believe that you wouldn’t believe in Christ unless you actually have an encounter where He’s undeniably there. I don’t blame you for having these conclusions, but I am not congratulating you either.
I asked questions, I never stopped. Surprisingly we didn’t get to the same conclusions.
What I’m going to ask you now, if you don’t believe in the God of the Bible, what do you exactly believe in?
I’d like to quote Albert Einstein: “God doesn’t play dice.”
It is from that line that I start my inquiry. Look around you, look inside you. Where did you get this “joy” of helping people? I hope you don’t get the “joy” because you can now say, “See, I can do good deeds without God”. Unconsciously, you might have been doing this, so study yourself, study your actions.
Being a Christian shouldn’t be a burden. If it was a burden to you, then you weren’t really a true Christian. Try understanding the religion without the pretext that you HAVE to believe it. Sometimes it works differently. ;D
May 30, 2009 at 8:34 am |
oops. Sorry about the epic comment…but I was actually restraining myself from saying more!
Anyway, this post really hit me hard and I just HAD to write all this out because I experience the living God working in my life every minute of my life and get sad that others can’t seem to experience Him in their lives as well.
May 30, 2009 at 8:36 am |
Congratulations upon your “Coming Out”. I too, made a similar revelation many years ago. The relief was almost palpable. The reasons were much the same as yours, only with a few additions.
The fact that most Christians fail to accept that a person cannot force themselves to believe something is what I find most off-putting. I know too much about the nature and size of the Universe to restrict my appreciation to a belief system so small and hostile as Christianity. It would be like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube. No matter how much I tried to fear the wrath of God I couldn’t make myself do it. I have reason to believe that our souls are eternal and that no single entity has a monopoly on determining what we do with ourselves outside of these bodies.
That being said I’ve taken on an understanding that I call “Interconnectivity”. I feel that we are all part of one immense if not infinite system where every thought and action has an effect on everything and everyone. The Christians are bouncing around in this system, and many of them are doing incredibly positive things. I do find it sad that they spend their lives waiting for what happens when they die and in fear of doing something to destroy the hopes of that future. This pressure seems to cause a lot of neurosis and bad behavior.
I find it so much nicer to be good because I answer to myself and the system of which I am part and parcel. I put love and positive energy to the Universe and it comes back to me on a constant basis.
May 30, 2009 at 8:46 am |
It should be no surprise that this is one of the wordpress “hawt posts” with the world going to hell in a hand basket and all. Interesting that this post is listed again even though it’s the same old opinionated nonsense from you and is just starting to sound like a broken record. Let me sum up what you’re saying, “I once believed nonsense but now I’m “enlightened”.” With your shifting loyalties, how do we know you won’t write in a another year with a new set of philosophies. By the way, there is not such thing as a “born again who becomes un-born-agan. You simply NEVER REALLY BELIEVED and NEVER HAD SAVING FAITH. There are 6 billion people in the world and every one has their own opinion. Is yours any more imporant?! I think not. As for me and my house, we’ll stick with the revelation of God through The Old and New Testaments, thank you very much. Over and out!
May 30, 2009 at 9:21 am |
I never really believed? I guess you would know everything about me since you read a blog post.
May 30, 2009 at 2:57 pm |
andy – get a grip. he’s not saying his opinion is more important than anyone else’s. he’s simply blogging and sharing. and, as you can see, a lot of people appreciate that. you should go hate somewhere else. what a typical christian!
May 30, 2009 at 8:46 am |
The problem is you approached Christianity with your head and not your heart, religion and not relationship. I am not a pastor, preacher, or any form of leadership but I have authority to speak as one who has pressed enough into Jesus, Father God (of the bible), and Holy Spirit to experience them (hear, see, smell,etc.) in incredible ways. That realm and their Godship is as real as you and I. The bible is true and all it says (yes, heaven and hell too) but you can’t understand it with a natural mind as the holy scriptures say, to the natural mind it is foolish but the Holy Spirit is the key. When we approach God in the way you write above you can no more understand Gods ways than a 3 year old understands the complex decisions their parents make. Only when that child has developed enough into an adult (spiritually speaking) can you begin to understand.
May 30, 2009 at 9:02 am |
I agree. God may be beyond our capacity to comprehend. It is then arrogant of one to reject Him because of his limited intellect. Which is why the Bible seems dumb to most. Consider this verse.
“19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” (1 Cor. 1:19-21)
I have my doubts, but I guess Im more of an agnostic now.
May 30, 2009 at 9:22 am |
I approached both with my head and heart. The problem is I had to turn my head off in order for my heart to believe it.
May 30, 2009 at 9:42 am |
of course you ‘ had to turn my head off in order for my heart to believe it.’
That is a definition of faith! No one needs faith in God (or anything at all) if they actually know the existence of God as a reality.
My concern reading your post is that you are looking at life and coming to your conclusions from a human perspective which always excludes God.
May 30, 2009 at 8:49 am |
Like the rationale! Oh and greetings from across the pond.
I am ex Bible college and gave it all up in 1997 when I began to question the thinking behind Double Predistination and Calvinism.
Thanks for putting your thoughts and action into print.
May 30, 2009 at 8:50 am |
Lovely post. I started reading the other comments, but seeing another god-exists-god-doesn’t-exist argument made me change my mind. I’ve been through some religions, but never seen anything that really made me believe in anything. The pointless rituals, the prejudice, and the close-minded people are always there. I’ve seen violence and sexual abuse too in those churches, which made me walk away.
I’m lucky to have a wonderful family that will love me no matter what I choose to believe in, and won’t force me into anything I don’t like. We are spiritual but not religious. I can be a good person with my own hands, mind and heart. If there is a god, I’m sure I won’t go to hell, lol.
I also believe that each one of us has to right to believe in whatever they want. And that no one has the right to say we’re wrong, no matter what our choice is. If a religions completes you, good for you. If life itself completes you, good for you too. We can all life in harmony if we learn to respect each other (and respect is one thing I didn’t see in the few comments I read here…).
Instead of being worrying on being right or wrong, we should worry about just not being ignorant. I read about other religions ’cause I’m curious and I want to understand my friends, how they feel and why they do the things they do. I think that if I’m well informed, I’ll know how to respect them. And also, that helps me on not losing my sense of humor too.
It’s very funny!: ^^
May 30, 2009 at 8:51 am |
You’ve definitely got issues. That’s sad.
May 30, 2009 at 8:52 am |
Thanks for your honesty, BE. I sort of consider myself a Christian Agnostic. So while I may not agree with all of your absolute arguments (in that they seem just as certain as the fundamentalists you might criticize..just opposite), I completely identify with the release of pressure that being honest with yourself brings. To realize that you were adhering to beliefs primarily because you felt obligated to (or conditioned to) can bring a sense of great freedom. Thanks for sharing.
May 30, 2009 at 8:53 am |
I really like how you approached this, especially laying out for yourself 20 things you saw wrong. Its better to do that than copy-paste something you read in a book; and it sounds like this was done after much soul-searching. As a recently out atheist I can attest to that same feeling of relief. The world starts being more logical and based around reason – you’re not concerned with how badly you’re sinning. Your story also reminds me of what Richard Dawkins says, that the worst thing we can do is say someone is a “Christian child” (or Muslim, Buddhist, etc), but that they’re a “child with Christian parents.” It’d be better for children to be educated about all the world’s myths/religions and let them decide if they wish to follow one.
I think you’ll find a lot of support, but people will certainly give you uneasy looks sometimes.
May 30, 2009 at 8:59 am |
Welcome to the Light and reality
Congratulations for getting rid of death weight
May 30, 2009 at 9:03 am |
[...] One former Christian highlights his reasons for leaving the church brilliantly. Read it here. [...]
May 30, 2009 at 9:03 am |
Haha.
I was reading your entry, but I couldn’t finish reading it.
God don’t want our physical offerings. He wants no blood shed. He already shed Jesus’ blood for every offering and sacrifice we can offer. He only wants our heart.
God performs tonnes of miracles today! He healed the crippled, let the blind see, etc! All happening today, in this century! I’ve witness many. Enough to know God’s healing power and miracles are definitely true.
No!
May 30, 2009 at 10:27 am |
Wan Zi
Has god ever healed an amputee? Do you know of any such a case? No, of course.
Take a look at whywontgodhealamputees.com and learn a bit.
May 30, 2009 at 10:53 am |
People always look for physical miracles. Physical miracles are nothing. God performs greater miracles than healing amputees every single moment. Just the fact that we have life breathing inside of us is a freaking miracle. The birth of a child is a miracle. The fact that I am recovering from an eating disorder is a miracle. The fact that I am actually alive after what I’d been through is a miracle. The fact that I was able to listen to His word and believe it is a miracle. Being able to forgive and love is a miracle. A criminal, when touched by the love of God, repents and transforms is a miracle. Not all miracles are physical. Physical miracles are only temporary.
May 30, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Burpexcuzme
My dog pooped! It is a miracle! So God exists.
Now, seriously, there we go again. First someone says miracles prove god exists. By miracles he means an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
Miracles, in that sense, would be a very strong evidence for the existence of God.
Then someone else points to the absence of verified miracles.
Finally the original poster or a third one stretches the meaning of the word miracle, and sees miracles everywhere.
That is what you have done, burpecuzme. The events you described in your post are everyday events. Some, like the birth of a child, can bring happiness to people involved. They are even so ordinary events, not miracles. They only point to the existence of a deity if you decide beforehand that a deity exists.
May 30, 2009 at 12:18 pm |
I also witness miracles watch David Copperfield.
May 30, 2009 at 3:07 pm |
That is exactly what I mean.Everyday events, every single daily, ordinary things in life…that IS a miracle. Where did YOU come from? Where did your dog came from? Who gave it life to poop? We are all creations, and there IS a creator.
And please don’t ask me who created God then. God isn’t God if He needs to be created.
May 30, 2009 at 4:13 pm
So easy! Everything needs a creator, except your god?
I came from my father and my mother. My dog came from its parents. And your god came from your mind blindly looking for answers.
May 30, 2009 at 4:36 pm
ricardo,
so where did life begin?
It had to begin with something or someone….
May 30, 2009 at 5:37 pm
dwade
so where did god begin?
It had to begin with something or someone….
About the origin of life, you could read something at Wikipedia:
“The current scientific consensus is that the complex biochemistry that makes up life came from simpler chemical reactions, but it is unclear how this occurred.[175] Not much is certain about the earliest developments in life, the structure of the first living things, or the identity and nature of any last universal common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.[176][177] Consequently, there is no scientific consensus on how life began, but proposals include self-replicating molecules such as RNA,[178] and the assembly of simple cells.”
As you can see, no simple answer. Anyway much better than “God has no beginning”, “God needs no creator”, or
God isn’t God if He needs to be created”.
May 30, 2009 at 7:06 pm
to me it takes much more faith to believe in a million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million, million chance of cells forming to form human life, than an eternal God that created you and the world….
And I would like to know your thoughts on the subject, not wikipedia…
May 30, 2009 at 9:03 am |
I came across a story recently which i posted too in my blog
http://xpresscoffee.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/tale-of-foolishness-the-legend-of-the-ritual-cat/
Religions inessence are just an extension of various superstitious belief as mentioned in that story !
May 30, 2009 at 9:03 am |
Excellent synopsis of the major problems with the christian religion.
May 30, 2009 at 9:04 am |
[...] 20 Reasons Project… If you’re a wordpress guy or gal, you may have seen this post from the BEattitude today. It was posted at the top of the WordPress dashboard as a particularly [...]
May 30, 2009 at 9:08 am |
[...] May 30, 2009 Posted by ash in about expression. trackback This is going to be a sensitive post / Just expressing my opinions so if you arent comfortable reading it, close the window now/ And be warned that since I got a stupid virus in my computer, I am unable to use the “ENTER” key and some punctuation so this whole post is going to flow continuously like this/ Today I took a cab (nothing unusual) but was unfortunately reminded of how narrow minded some Christians can be/ The driver was listening to FM 958 and the Chinese DJ “Di Cong” was making some commentary about the local sport scene, I found his arguments very sound and passed a casual remark to the driver that “Di Cong” is indeed one of the few knowledgeable DJs around / The driver told me proudly “He is Christian”, then continued by saying that many of our local celebrities are Christians/ The immediate response in my head was “SO?” / I didn’t comment any further but he seemed to have found his calling and proceeded to remark on how wonderful it is that there are lesser and lesser people burning incense in the month of the Hungry Ghost Festival after which he ended this observation with a smirk “Hah!” / He also mentioned that there are less Buddhists people now because the churches have recently added “Hokkien” sermons and many people have thus began to visit the churches / He asked me if I was a Christian (somehow I knew that question would come) and I replied that I wasn’t, but most of my friends are either Christians or Catholics / The moment that came out of my mouth I regretted, because I knew instantly what he was going to say / True enough, he started telling me (with a little disdain) that Catholics are different from Christians/ The most ridiculous thing was his supporting reason, he actually said that the difference was that Catholics can eat and touch anything, especially those food which have been used to worship the Gods of Buddhism and that Catholics are free to hold joss sticks / PUH-LEASE, even I know that that is not the logical explanation for the difference between Catholics and Christians/ What pissed me off the most was what he insinuated, as if Buddhist practices or even just the act of holding joss sticks is wrong / And I felt like telling me people burning paper money during Hungry Ghost Festival has nothing to do with Buddhism / That’s what I hate about such Christians like him, their narrow mindedness and intolerance towards the religions of others is infuriating and ego-centric / I was reminded of my school days, when those persistent crusaders or evangelists would come up to me on the streets and force me to listen to how much Jesus cared for us / A polite “No, I am not interested” would never work on them/ In retaliation, I often had to return their courtesy by telling them the story of how Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree and achieved enlightenment / I wasn’t even a Buddhist and I could have well been telling them the story of how Newton sat under the apple tree and discovered the law of gravity if I merely wanted to fend them off / I just could not stand how ego-centric these people are, how they think their religion is the best and how they think everyone should be assimilated / The worst was when these people came up to me on the streets and told me that 1999 was going to be Judgement Day and that those who believed in God would go to Heaven while those who did not would perish in Hell / I said, “Let me go to hell because Heaven would certainly be crowded with the likes of people like you” / Seriously, I have nothing against Christianity the religion, I just hate these people who are so institutionalised and think they know what is the best for everyone / To those Christians who cannot even have the graciousness and decency to show tolerance to the religion of others, I see no need to be cordial to them/ If you read until here, I applaud you for your curiosity and persistence because this flowing entry must have pained your eyes LOL / As an ending note, you can read about someone’s departure from the religion here [...]
May 30, 2009 at 9:08 am |
I’ll say it again simply because it is worth repeating, you’re conclusions seem to be based on the attitudes and actions of man rather than on God Himself. As I was reading the post, I couldn’t help but think of either a wounded person or a completely selfish person. I have never met you, but I can understand some of the questions that you seem to struggle with. There is plenty of injustice and wrong doing in the world we live in and looking through a certain set of glasses, I could sit back, take no responsibility and lay blame on an unseen God. Or, and this is my choice, I can choose to believe in a benevolent and merciful God, whose heart breaks at the direction we have chosen, but pursues us daily, while never forcing us to believe in HIm. I can also choose to join in and do what I can to make things better. I struggle each day to be the best Husband, Father and Son as you do. I am also free to admit that I can’t do it on my own. As you have never seen, I have seen God move in incredible and evident ways in my home, in my community and around the world and desperately wish not for others to see, but for others to believe what has already been seen. I pray that you never stop searching. The reason you feel peace right now is because you have given up the fight, you are no longer in the battle but a mere spectator to all that has been offered. Although you probably wish I wouldn’t, I will pray that you eyes would be opened and that your heart would be changed.
I would love to continue this conversation if you have any interest.
May 30, 2009 at 9:08 am |
No! the bible doesn’t prosecute anyone!! Haven’t you read, love is patient love is kind. We love the homos, we love non-christians. =)
Till today, science cannot explain how the universe began, and how life began. Where did the first egg and sperm come from?
God is love, that’s for sure. God gave us all choices. Whatever path you choose to take, God will still bless you. God will still be watching over you even if you choose to reject Him. God still loves you, and He NEVER condemns you. =)
No way is God mysterious. God’s my friend. God’s mysterious only when you don’t know Him. A close relationship with Him changes everything.
These are just some truths to the misunderstandings of Christianity you have. =)
Cheers. =)
May 30, 2009 at 3:02 pm |
god is love. love is blind. ray charles is blind. ray charles is GOD.
May 30, 2009 at 9:10 am |
Here is a Sikh perpsective (an insider’s view) on the “20 list”. I am happy to debate any of the points as long as it is done in an impersonal and respectful manner.
1. God is a power not a person. That above whom and whose equal is none is God. Thus, there is only One God, who may be called by any name. Above all God is the True Teacher for all knowledge is Hir creation. The laws that govern this creation SHe has created.
2. God does not punish. SHe has created all the possible causes and all possible effects. What we sow, we reap. My prayer isn’t going to make the poison ivy I sowed bear grapes. SHe has also given us the wisdom to identify what seed we sow. SHe has given us the free will to choose the seed. Once the seed is sown, we have no control over the fruit.
3. What happened before we were born or what may happen after we die is a fruitless pursuit — unknowable. Anything an individual says on these two points is as true or as false as everything that has been said in time gone or may be said in time to come. The pursuit of life is defined by understanding this — “I” exist because SHe makes me; when even a speck of dust has a defined role to play in this world, “I” must have been given a defined role to play in my existence too; “my role” is something between “me” and “God”. So no clergy can tell one for what purpose God has created one. This purpose is not something that can be stated in a line — “be a good Christian” or “be a good Sikh”. This purpose must be realized in every set of circumstances that we find ourselves in at any moment. “This” moment would have been very different if, say, Bush had not attacked Iraq or 9/11 had not happened, or Hitler had never ruled Germany. So each of us, by our actions in any set of circumstances, is giving shape to the moments which will follow “this” one. Consider the analogy of a building. Our actions are the bricks. Where we put the brick is going to define the shape of the building. The “mysterious” part of God is that an individual is incapable of seeing the whole building — ever. In Sikh scripture the analogy of fish and sea is used. Fish can only know a part of the sea, never the whole sea.
4. It is erroneous to believe that there is a set of rituals performing which will please God. God will be pleased if we do what SHe created us to do. A person who builds a bicycle won’t be pleased if the bicycle does not do what it was built to do. It may have never rusted or got a puncture, but if it does not move, it is useless. Would we be happy if the bicycle rings the bell in our honour everytime we pass it? Only if it also does what it was created to do. If it doesn’t, then every ring will irritate us even more.
5. Whether we worship Hir or not, it makes no difference to Hir. Prayer is for our own self not for God. Prayer benefits the individual in that it helps us communicate with the God inside us. More selfless we are, more ably we may communicate with God. The Sikh scripture says — when there was “I” (ego) You were nowhere to be seen; now that “I” (ego) has been banished wherever I see I see only You. That is, once ego is banished we see God in everyone and everything.
6. Miracle by definition is something that does not obey laws of nature. God manifests Hirself in laws. SHe has created everything to work according to certain laws. For instance if one throws the ball up it must fall down (unless it is thrown with acceleration exceeding g — another law). A miracle will have the ball float in the air for no reason but to show that the person who threw the ball is a “messenger of God” or some such. All the prophecies combined do not stack up in their influence on advancing man’s knowledge when compared with a single Law of Newton. Without Newton’s discovery of the laws that go under his name, we would never have progressed to space travel. Which is the real miracle? And which knowledge is superior — Newton’s law or say, Old Testament’s last prophecy that Jews are suffering because they are not honest in paying tithe?
7. Prayer does have power but not the way many currently understand it and want to use it. For the Sikh perspective, follow this link: http://sikhcentre.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/concept-of-prayer-in-sikhism/
8. Future is ever evolving. Prophecy has no place in a God-centric world for that amounts to knowing God’s mind which is like being God. And there is only One God who is a power not a person. Logical deduction, yes. Prophecy, no.
9. All the authors (more than 30) of Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh scripture, are known. Though many of them never met each other, they had access to the writings of those who lived before them. They debate each other’s ideas about spiritual and material aspects of this world keeping the central logic intact but further fleshing it out for the followers.
10. All knowledge has one source — God. Our ego can distort this knowledge.
11. There are two ways of living one’s life — God-centric and self-centric. In God-centric universe, everything revolves around God including one’s existence — that is including oneself, everything exists to serve God’s purpose. In a self-centric universe, “I” is the centre of the universe and one sees everything as something to be used for self-aggrandisment of some kind.
12. Tyranny is tyranny whether committed by others or our own.
13. The Sikh scripture says about women — “why call them inferior who give birth to kings?” On worship of other gods the scripture says whichever door leads one to self-realization, May God open that for one. I would say, theBEattitude, Christianity did open the door for your self-realization
14. Sikhs do not believe that Sikhi is the only path to God. Sikh worldview believes that since there is only One Creator — all humans are part of one family. There are no superiors and inferiors. That also stretches to animals and plants — for these are also God’s creation, Created by Hir to serve a defined role in Hir creation.
15. Though I was born in a Sikh family, I volunteered the formal initiation at the age of 27 — when I understood what is expected of me as a Sikh.
16. I would agree with this statement. I personally believe that we are moving towards a unified logical view on what has so far been domain of religion. I think days of religion as we know it, are numbered. For my detailed argument see: http://sikhcentre.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/30/
17. The disagreement I would see as positive. The problem with a prophetic religion is that to correct a wrong statement, another prophet’s arrival is required.
18. That is true. It holds true for Sikhs as well. However, the difference is that a practicing Sikh is morally a better person as he/she does not discriminate on the basis of colour, creed, class or caste. Or indulges in any other discrimination against their fellow humans.
19. Sikhi has no clerical class. I can do all that a professional Sikh preacher can. In fact, a Sikh is expected to do their own religious services, but today’s “modern hectic life” is making us look for shortcuts.
20. Very true. However, we should keep in mind that religion, philosophy and science all claim to deal with God’s creation. They all have drawbacks in their approach. My view (as expounded in the link cited previously, http://sikhcentre.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/30/) is that the best approach is a combination of all three approaches.
May 30, 2009 at 5:55 pm |
I wish there was a “like” button. That was pretty cool.
May 30, 2009 at 9:13 am |
Have you read anything by Joseph Campbell? He studied all the world’s religions and found that almost all stories are based in the same myth. Many of the Bible stories were just old Pagan myths twisted around to get more followers. Here is the website to his stuff:
http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php
I left the Catholic upbringing I had when my super religious step father would try to molest me daily, yet we all showed up to church and the priest thought we were such a ‘nice’ family. Then when my mom divorced the evil bastard she was not allowed to get communion because she got divorced. How is that right?
Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your stuff and good luck on your journey through life!
May 30, 2009 at 9:13 am |
So true. Believe is an other word for a reason to kill all over the world.
May 30, 2009 at 9:16 am |
Have you read anything by Joseph Campbell? He studied all the world’s religions and found that almost all stories are based in the same myth. Many of the Bible stories were just old Pagan myths twisted around to get more followers. Here is the website to his stuff:
http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php
I left the Catholic upbringing I had when my super religious and controlling step father would try to molest me daily, yet we all showed up to church and the priest thought we were such a ‘nice’ family (probably because he gave them lots of money). I prayed all the time for the man to stop or die or let me die…none of my prayers were answered. Then when my mom finally did divorced the evil bastard (I was an adult) she was not allowed to get communion because she got divorced. How is that right?
Anyway, I look forward to reading more of your stuff and good luck on your journey through life!
May 30, 2009 at 9:17 am |
I just want to say that all these issues with faith and system beliefs are just human made. Christianity, Judaism ad Islam are the three monotheism religions of the world all of them created by men. Atheism, agnosticism, satanism are all religions too, (religion = set of believes). Humans complicate everything. What is the true? The true is that there is one that is Almighty, creator of all things, just look at yourself for the prove of it!
This Creator is what is called God in western societies (Christianity). He revealed himself to the people of Israel so Israel will reveal him to other nations. He sent his servant, a chosen one, who was filled by his spirit, to be the teacher and sovereign of all us. This person is NOT God but his messiah (anointed one) to be the king of Israel and judge of all of us. The true God expressed himself through all his prophets that wrote the rolls known as the hebrew scriptures (OT and NT). They are all really inspired by the Almighty!
My point is that the top 20 list that you presented demonstrates that you never met this true God but just the teachings and doctrines of religions. May I suggest you to start over from scratch and study the Bible from the hebraic perspective instead? If you look for the hebrew roots in Christianity everything will change and start to make sense and be more clear. Try it, I was like you and doing this changed my whole life forever!
If you look for the true with all your heart, God who is merciful, will reveal it to you in his time.
May YaHWeH bless you and find the true relationship with him trough Yahshua his messiah.
PS. By the way, the believes in eternal torment, heaven and hell, the devil and demons, the trinity, the deity of Christ, the immortality of the soul are ALL FALSE! Study the Bible from the hebrew perspective and you will see.
A good place to start is http://www.hebroots.org/hhmi.html
May 30, 2009 at 9:20 am |
[...] education leading people away from church. In a fit of serendipity, this article about why one man walked away from Christianity came across my desktop immediately after I commented on Wyrdd’s post. The main reason he [...]
May 30, 2009 at 9:21 am |
I think what went wrong was that you took the Bible very literally. If you did that you would ceraintly find so many inconsistencies in it. For instance, the story of Adam and Eve is too illogical if you take the Bible literally. For one, why should God put a serpent in paradize knowing that man – Adam and Eve in this case – considering that He is all knowing and hence knew from the very start that the first Biblical humans could not resist the temptation. It you follow the reasoning to its logical conclusion, it would pre-suppose that God has predestined man to sin. Then, look at the story of Cain and Abel. Why were there many people in another town when Cain wandered there after God had vanished him?
But try to look at the Bible through the themes it carries, probably the way you read a literary novel. The Bible has so many universal truths it in like the message it want to convey in the Parable of the Sower. The weeds there symbolize our mundane interests which make us stray away from the virtues which the Bible is trying to inculcate in us – humility, love and plain, simple living. We reject all this because we always want to be famous, wealthy and powerful, the mundane desires that lead us to fight one another or bring nations to war.
From there, throw in the wisdom in the Book of Ecclesiastes that says that all our mundane longings – for fame, money and power – will turn up to nothing when we die.
To paraphrase the Bible, it’s like chasing the wind. All this chasing for worldly things is meaningless in the face of death. Life will only have meaning when you start believing that there is life after death – probably not as the traditional Christian views it but in ways that go far beyond human understanding.
Religion is based on faith and – to a large extent – so is science. Many atheists argue that science will eventually discover all the mysteries that surround our universe. but then how sure are we that it will? The way I see it each scientific discovery raises more questions than answers to the riddles that science wants to unravel. Believing that science can unravel all the mysteries of the world is a quantum leap of faith.
I can go on and on but then at the end of the day I am aware that we make decisions from how we perceive the things around us, from our own world view which, of course, is an accumulation of our personally experiences and the knowledge we acquire.
I am not trying to persuade you to go back to religion. I am only trying to point out that each of us has our own perception of things around us. We don’t really make decision out of pure reason but out of emotion. Basically we decide from what our instinct tells us. Even atheists decide from emotion, no matter if they claim and how much they claim that they are guided by reason.
I also lost God when I was in college after taking a one-sem subject in anthropology and found out that Darwin’s theory of evolution was more plausible than the Biblical story of creation. That’s because I took the Bible literally. I still believe in evolution, only I believe now that it is a process guided by some unseen intelligence, not a random one. I still longed to hear a convincing explanation from any scientist – atheist or not – on why living organisms have the instinct to live. Why not just live for a little while without developing into a very complex being like humans or even any higher form of animal? And why shouldn’t we have six arms or evolved into a multi-legged creature like the centipedes or spider since the environment in which all living organisms developed are almost the same?
Yes, blessed are those who ask question but blessed also are those who admit that the human mind has its own limiations and not make hasty conclusion that because science has made some trifling discoveries it can solve all the mysterious that surround us or like it is a new god or limit its search for “truth” in a method called physicalism also known as materialism.
I want to leave here a famous Christian prayer (I can’t remember the author). God give me the wisdom to change thnigs that I can change, the humility to accept things that I cannot and the wisdom to know the difference.
Anyway, thanks for opening this blog to an open discussion.
May 30, 2009 at 9:27 am |
God, Spirit, Source, the Universe, Allah – what ever you wish to call it by name, it exists in all of us. Your desire to break from organized religion could mean that you are moving forward in your growth. Christianity no longer feels real for you perhaps, because it isn’t real. But the faith is.
Faith is that undying belief that we are not alone, and that we have brought everything in this world to us; all the good, the bad and in between. Faith means we accept it and learn through it. Faith is not attached to any form or organization. It has no name, no logo, no strings. It just is.
We all have to experience this for ourselves, not through a group of men who tell us what is real and what to believe. You don’t need to go to a church to speak to (God). You are that close; just look up. Ask.
Faith does not condemn nor blame. Ego does that. Faith does not need to write anything in a book; humans do that. Faith has no evil. Only humans create devils.
I have always thought that religion was an organization based on controlling the masses. Because the majority of humans tend to be followers rather than leaders, where ever humans gathered in groups, there needed to be some person/group that held everyone’s ideals and beliefs together. While many of the religious leaders started out with the right intentions, the Industrial revolution and capitalism brought on a whole new reason to organize these masses.
I salute you in your search for another way.
May 30, 2009 at 9:55 am |
Actually you make some very valid points, but they don’t necessarily lead to the conclusion that God is not there. It may be more that you are ready for a more mature faith. That can take some years to develop. I would agree, that the “traditional” God portrayed in the bible and interpreted by many denominations is a God not worthy of belief. However, there are other ways of envisioning and better ways of interpreting. I wish you well on your journey which never stops no matter how much we ignore it.
May 30, 2009 at 10:14 am |
Sherry
“Better ways of envisioning”?
“Better ways of interpreting”?
Sorry for picking your post among so many similar ones, but I got tired of people saying thebeattitude has not understood true religion, or belonged to the wrong denomination, or did not got the true meaning of the Bible, or something like that. These people, you among them, finish the post without addressing any of the points thebeattitude raised. I suspect you act this way because you really do not know what to answer.
May 30, 2009 at 9:55 am |
Very good points. Concise and clear.
It is interesting how we, atheists, do not need convolute explanations to make our point. Theists, on the contrary, digress a lot, since they try to justify what cannot be justified. And their ultimate argument is “you cannot understand God”.
May 30, 2009 at 10:01 am |
Anyone can take part in this history in order to say NO to the Fascists, racists and the extremist…
Thanks for the support and the solidarity from the members of the civil society.
THE ART TO DISTRY A PERSON!
Premised that Miss Rossi or Mr. Bianchi had both 27 years exactly as me in 1990 and was engaged for the affirmation of plans of their life like all the human beings after waiting or study years in order to find a job, but suddenly something gone rung, not for reasons of natural calamity, war, scarcity, political repression… like that happening to the refugees and the displeased ones that suddenly collapses the sky on them and lean and lose all! In this case the cause could be justified, but if
May 30, 2009 at 10:04 am |
God is wrathful, jealous, hateful, and kills nations of people like it is a bodily function. He is certainly not just or “holy” in nature. (That is a subjective, irrational statement. How does someone who is inherently unholy even begin to comprehend what true justice and holiness is? You are also reading the Scriptures with one eye closed. I not only see God’s holiness and judgment, but His mercy and love! The pagan peoples surrounding the nation of Israel followed “gods” who were far more barbaric and immoral than you are claiming Yaweh is. Child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and many other disgusting practices that were common at the time were forbidden by the God of Israel. Throughout the Old Testament, God instructs the nation of Israel to minister to the poor, the widows, the orphans, and the strangers. And when non-Israelites (such as Rahab the prostitute, Ruth the Moabitess, Naaman the Syrian, just to name a few) put their faith in God, He always extended His mercy toward them. He didn’t just randomly wipe people out in a cruel rage. That is a lop-sided, prejudiced view of Scripture, that doesn’t understand His holiness, and refuses to see His kindness and mercy.)
The act of throwing people into infinite torture and punishment for not believing a Jewish guy from 2,000 years ago was God’s son, or unknowingly worshiping the wrong god, is extremely cruel and sadistic. (Granted, I don’t entirely understand hell either, but I don’t think it has anything to do with God being cruel and sadistic. I think it has to do with our not comprehending the seriousness of sin.)
The statements, “God works in mysterious ways,” or “It will all make sense in heaven,” are little more than irrational cop outs. This God allows horrible atrocities to be committed against innocent men, women and children every day. (Perhaps this is a good place to bring in the concept of hell, where ultimate justice will finally prevail over all the atrocities being committed? Isn’t it interesting that we have a double standard going on here? Refusing to admit our complicity in the atrocities going on around us, while at the same time wondering how God can send anyone to hell? Chew on that for a while….)
Bloody animal and human sacrifices are illogical demands by a divine god as payment for petty wrong doings. These actions are no different than the rituals of archaic pagan religions. Not to mention the bizarre ritual of symbolically drinking human blood and eating human flesh. (This merely comes from lack of spiritual insight.)
If God loves us and wants us to know and believe in him, why be so completely invisible? What is the purpose of being so illusive to those who believe and worship him? (Actually, God is not as illusive as you make Him out to be. To those who are not blinded by a completely materialistic, rationalistic universe, He is ever present and hardly illusive. As for the invisible part, that only makes sense. If He created that which is visible, He must transcend that which is visible, and therefore is not required to make Himself known to us merely through visible means. The cool thing, though, is that He has deigned to make Himself visible to us through the person of Jesus Christ. He walked this earth—the very earth He created—as a human being, at a specific point in time. And one day soon, at the return of Christ, He will make Himself physically visible to us once more. In the meantime, He has promised that those who seek Him with their whole heart will surely find Him, and those, such as myself, who take this promise seriously, have found it to be true. I believe the whole “invisible/illusive” reasoning behind not believing is merely a cop-out. Those who wish not to see, won’t see. Those who do, will. It’s not a matter of the mind, but of the heart. I could tell you of miracles that God is still doing today, of how He is showing Himself to people—often through supernatural means—-but if you don’t want to believe, then no amount of evidence will convince you. It’s self-imposed blindness, really.)
God never manifests himself or performs miracles as he regularly did for the Israelites in Old Testament stories. (Not true. Never say “never” unless you can categorically, unequivocally back up your statement. Where the self-imposed blindness that I mentioned above is prevalent—where materialism runs rampant—-where society has forsaken its spiritual roots—-in these places, yes, one rarely sees God manifest Himself or perform miracles. Not because He can’t, but because He chooses not to. Just as Jesus refused to perform miracles where there was a lot of unbelief, so God the Father refuses to reward unbelief with miracles. It is not in wealthy, unbelieving, materialistic countries like the US where miracles like those described in the Bible are still occurring, but in the poorer countries of the world, in the more spiritually hungry corners of the world. Just do a little research. Amazing, supernatural miracles are still happening all over the world. Of course, the mainstream media won’t talk about them—for why would they, when such events might undermine their cozy, self-indulgent, materialistic outlook on life?)
Prayers are never answered. Certainly not in the way Jesus described. Prayer has absolutely no affect on the world around us. (Again, not true. I’m sorry you are again making a presumptuous statement based on your own limited experience and viewpoint. I have seen prayers answered time and time again in my own life, and I know that the millions of prayers going up all over the world by faithful saints do absolutely have an impact on the world. The Bible says that the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. It is my belief that if it weren’t for the prayers of such righteous people on the earth, the world would be in even a more chaotic, destructive state than it is now. God stays His hand of judgment because of the pleas of the righteous. Just because He is not like some magical genie up in the sky, or a vending machine that pops out whatever we want, or just because we have not personally experienced what we think is an answer to prayer, does not give us valid reason to make the assumption that “prayers are never answered.” Again, you are making a faulty, unequivocal statement based on limited evidence and viewpoint. I would advise not using the word “never“ so much.)
Jesus did not fulfill major Old Testament prophesies or even fulfill his own promises and predictions. (I would love to have this statement explained and backed up.)
The authors of much of the Bible are unknown. And of these unknown authors, the men who wrote the gospels likely never even met Jesus considering they were written 40-70 years after his death. A far cry from reliable testimony. (Considering most of what we consider to be reliable ancient documents were written at least a 100 years after the death of the authors or the events described, this is a lousy argument. I’ve heard this argument over and over, and wonder why it is even used anymore. It exposes such a double standard within academia. Forty to seventy years is piddly compared to the hundreds of years involved with other ancient texts. Such a short amount of time actually enhances the credibility of the authors! As for claiming many of the authors of the Bible were unknown—well, that’s a poor argument as well. In this day and age when we are totally reliant on computers and other modern advances to help us record events and remember things, we diminish and totally overlook the capacity of the human mind to retain and record information. In ancient times, people had a far superior capability of retaining information, and were more meticulous about recording events, places, and people, in order to pass on to succeeding generations, which they did so through both the written and spoken word. We are arrogant and foolish to presume we know more than they did. )
The Bible is repeatedly contradictory with itself, reality, and the laws of morality. Couldn’t God inspire a less poorly written book? (I would love to see these statements elaborated upon.)
The Bible is open to interpretation. Everyone interprets it in the way that suits them best or serves their purposes. (Unfortunately, this does happen way too frequently. But it is not a valid excuse for dismissing the whole of the Bible, which is still amazingly coherent and unlike any other book on the planet.)
Throughout history, Christians have justified horrific actions by the Bible and its teaching. (Sadly, true. But, still, not a valid enough excuse for dismissing the Bible.)
The Bible promotes hate and persecution against women, homosexuals and those who worship other gods or no god at all. (Are you reading the same Bible I do?)
According to the Bible, nearly 70% percent of the people in the world will burn in hell because they don’t believe Jesus was the son of God. (Where did you get the figure 70%?)
The only reason I was a Christian was because I was indoctrinated into the religion as a child as a result of the culture and region of the world in which I was born. (Then if that was the only reason you were a “Christian,” then perhaps you only thought you were one. That is “cultural, nominal Christianity”—-a far cry from the born-again, Spirit-filled, radically saved, changed, and redeemed Christianity described in the Bible. What you think is Christianity is probably not Christianity at all, but a cheap, powerless, flawed, and worldly imitation. I hope you find the real Jesus one day, and not the distorted version you followed most of your life.)
Christianity has no more rational or factual foundation than any other religion on earth that I openly reject. (Hmmm….again, elaboration on such an emphatic statement would be nice.)
The Christian church is disjointed and can’t even agree with one another. (Sadly, true, at least in much of modern, Western, worldly Christendom. In other parts of world, where Christians are being persecuted, there is much more unity. The persecuted Church is a much truer reflection of Christ, and how His Bride ought to look.)
Christians are not at all ethically or morally different from non-Christians. (Sadly, this is true—-but once again, mainly in reference to Western, materialistic Christians. In the parts of the world where there is much persecution of Christians, this description is not true. The love, the mercy, the selfless acts of sacrifice, and the over-all Christ-like character these Christians display is totally otherworldly. Very, very different from non-Christians.)
Today, powerful church leaders steal, lie and molest young children. The church repeatedly attempts to cover up these atrocities, only to reluctantly apologize as a last resort. (It breaks my heart that such things happen in the name of Christ. But as I keep saying, you are only looking at a certain percentage, a certain population. Most of this filth happens in the Western church, where materialism, wealth, and power have corrupted people. Look a little harder, and open your eyes up a little more, and you will find that, overall, far more good has been done in the name of Christ than harm. Christians—at least the real ones—-are far more likely to give to the needy and sacrifice their time, money, and lives for others than non-Christians. Not because they fear God is going to beat them with a stick if they don’t, but because the supernatural love of Christ indwells them. )
It is absolutely irrational to continue to believe archaic teaching with the amount of knowledge we’ve gained through science and technology. The Bible reads like a book of primitive folklore, not divinely inspired insight into our true reason for existence. (I am sorry you have come to this conclusion. I’ve read a bit of other “primitive folklore,” and, quite frankly, the Bible reads nothing like them. The wisdom and insight contained in Scripture is unlike anything contained in any other book on earth. Certainly there are parts that don’t make sense, certainly I wouldn’t claim to understand everything in it, but one thing I do know: knowledge gained through science and technology alone is ultimately empty and unfulfilling. Human beings aren’t just molecules and matter—human beings are also spiritual. And science and technology can never fill up or explain our spiritual essence. I wonder if those like yourself, who deny the need for God, are merely living in denial. I do not envy your so-called “progress” and “enlightenment.” For, professing to be wise, you have actually made yourselves foolish. And that is truly heart-breaking. May your eyes one day be opened!)
May 30, 2009 at 10:28 am |
Well said! you took all the words out of my mouth!
May 30, 2009 at 10:45 am |
Beijaflor77
“Considering most of what we consider to be reliable ancient documents were written at least a 100 years after the death of the authors…”
Are you kidding me? Do you believe in disincarnated spirits dictating books?
May 30, 2009 at 10:13 am |
I don’t understand these ‘people of faith’ who claim to understand and know ‘God’. How could you possibly comprehend a deity? Anyone who claims to know the workings of any god is a liar. The fact of the matter is all religions and beliefs preach the same basic message: be a good person. You don’t need to believe in a Jewish zombie who died over 2,000 years ago or worship a prophet who can’t be shown because you’ll be labeled a blasphemer to be a good person. The stories and tales in the Bible (the greatest fiction novel ever written) are simply metaphors and examples of good deeds. I left the church years ago because I realized I don’t need to be threatened by a vengeful God and the possibility of eternal suffering in order to do good things.
I promote peace, acceptance, and love. Unlike Christianity, I don’t try to scare people into doing the same.
May 30, 2009 at 10:34 am |
Nicely said!
May 30, 2009 at 10:19 am |
I have been an atheist since I was twelve, although for many years I still sought mystic solutions to the problems in my life. It was not until I read Ayn Rand’s “Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology” while in college that I started to haul out my mental trash. It caused me to drop most of my English courses and switch to philosophy, which further convinced me of the lack of deities in the Multiverse.
OK, string theory almost makes me lose my position with regard to Intelligent Design. (But not quite. I am still not sold.)
May 30, 2009 at 10:25 am |
If you think about it, Christianity is the only religion that caused so much lives and hatred. There is such a gigantic flaw in christianity- the neverending disagreement between Catholic and Christians.
I mean seriously, they orginated from the same source- “God”.
I’m a Buddhism, and let me share with you my beliefs. ( These are purely my opinions and i’m merely sharing it with everyone. I’m not an expertise in this field )
Buddhism is the only religion that doesn’t have this crazy hatred for Homosexuals.
Buddhism is the only religion that doesn’t believe in Creation.
Buddhism is the only religion that have reliable sources, evidence from the times when Buddha reached his Enlightenment. (Visit Myanmar!)
Buddhism is the only religion that does not say- those non-believers will go to hell.
But indeed, there are rising issues in the religion-Buddhism, just like any other religions. Just like Christians, we also have monks that are corrupted. But there are also the good ones. Buddhism is also divided into three types, and sadly the other two is not the real religion. I’m a Thiravada Buddhism (i hope i get the spelling correct)
A nun once told me that Buddhism is not even a religion. It is more like a philosophy. Its the thinking, the way you live your life, the way to reach Nirvana, where there is absolute peace.
And and and lastly,
Lisa Simpson (The Simpson series) is also a Buddhism.
Haha, peace out.
May 30, 2009 at 11:00 am |
Buddist, you mean.
May 30, 2009 at 4:34 pm |
xgrace,
I think you need to do further studies on religion. There is man made religion, which buddhism is a part of and there is the relationship that God desires through His Son Jesus Christ.
Creation is not accepted in all religions, some “religions” believe in evolution.
May 30, 2009 at 10:28 am |
I also share your experience. Mine was more of an end to denying what I already knew. I had been conditioned, since birth and baptism, to deny it, or risk punishment of some unknown sort.
I, too, felt the surprising sense of relief once I admitted that the entity that I kept worshipping and jumping through hoops for, just was not real.
Not real, but a man made myth.
More and more people are finally awakening.
I can only speak for myself, but after reading all the messages from those that are still worshipping a god, I have but one thought: While you think your condolences are genuine expressions of love, it should probably occur to you that they might actually be condescending attempts to make another person realize that you are right, and that they are in fact, pitiably, and ignorantly wrong, and that no one in their right mind would think differently than you.
May YOUR eyes one day be opened!
May 30, 2009 at 11:01 am |
No offense, but that’s funny. So you feel all oppressed by people who tell you to believe a certain way, and then respond in the very same form. Could it be that most “atheists” are those pissed off at God, confused about the nature of the world (as nearly all of us are), and seeking a simple, logical conclusion? I’m just not sure that “pure reason” or science is the answer for the soul. Part of the joy in life is wrestling in the darkness and discovering the richness of the fabric of this world, a world where the spiritual and physical are woven together.
Popular American Christianity can be very much oppressive. Fearful people grab onto whatever they can to make themselves feel better about the unknown, and enough of them have gathered in America to create a very scary (religio-fascist?) movement. But in rejecting that form of religion, this narrow-minded world view, let’s not just jump to the opposite side of the same playing field (science vs religion; logic vs myth; etc.). I think we’re allowed to wander around a little in our search for Life and Truth. For in almost everything there is some life-giving truth.
May 30, 2009 at 2:42 pm |
It is funny! Glad you caught that. You must have missed the previous post about using the words of one poster to turn their argument around on them?
It’s OK. There are a lot of posts here.
One thing though. Atheists do not get angry with what does not exist.
I know, I know, it is hard to move out of your comfort zone of thinking there is some mystical something that is responsible for everything, and wanting to make sure that everyone else thinks the same way you do, so they don’t miss it. It is tough, when you have been conditioned to think and accept, along with the majority, one particular way, to then try and grasp that there are others who just do not buy in to that group think. You can’t help yourself.
The “opposite side of the same playing field”? Really? So you are saying that you have a better idea and that idea is somewhere between religion and no religion? That I should suddenly start believing in something that I know is not real because it would make you feel more comfortable about the playing field?
I am guessing that you did not understand the other point I was making either. The one about the condescension in dismissing an atheists non theism, by attempting to replace it with your correct way of thinking? Well, give it some thought. It really is not that hard.
Wait, lets put it this way. You are a staunch Catholic. You wake up one day and there are a group of Baptists sitting at your kitchen table. They have removed all of your crucifixes and other Catholic thingies and have supplied you with the right religious symbols. They are telling you that your religion is all wrong. That the Baptist way is the only true way, and that you should be attending church with them from now on, because you are not worshipping the proper way.
Hope that brings it all in to focus for you. Wander on, Brother……
May 30, 2009 at 10:28 am |
I respect you with all my head, my heart and my soul. To have the guts to say all that, is just a breather in a horrible non-believing world. I pray for you and bless you.
May 30, 2009 at 10:30 am |
My son forwarded your site to me because he knows I am writing a book on a related topic. Based on the works of various academics who have studied this, I believe a move such as the one you made in questioning your religious beliefs is an important step in spiritual development.
Childlike acceptance of whatever the Bible or your church teaches you is not mature faith. It is only in questioning that a person can develop a genuine, authentic faith stance. Of course a certain number of people who question wind up as atheists or agnostics and that is really ok. Studies show they are likely more ethical and moral, more self-fulfilled, and lead more authentic lives than before the questioning started.
The Faith development stages enjoy way too little press in our culture but I am working to change that. If everyone understood that the questioning step you went through was a good thing, but does not necessarily indicate that you have found the one and only “right answer” about faith, you would not have all these people responding on this site who feel sorry for you. I say congrats!
For more info about the stages, see my site: http://www.exploring-spiritual-development.com and sign up to be notified when my book comes out.
May 30, 2009 at 10:33 am |
An interesting blog. I’m not a christian but I have to admit, I feel the same way about religion. Being born as a Hindu, I feel that religion has become a tool to control and manipulate people, used by people of power. People don’t question practises of religion because of fear, and those who do become an outcast.
I’m still in my teens yet I’m suprised by people who are claiming to be religious, and on the path of GOD. They go faithfully and pray every morning but they fail to respect another human being. They donate (a good thing, yes) but they do not feel the slightest empathy for someone who’s in pain. They seem to know all the mantras to chant, but they must have forgotten their manners in the process.
Many people have been brought up in a society where they fear God. If one does not attend prayers/mass, then THE ALMIGHTY GOD will be angry. The sound of this statement itself suprises me. I was not brought up that way, and I definitely can’t understand why someone would think in such manner!
Would God, the ultimate power that created every single microscopic detail, to every element of the universe (which our minds can’t even comprehend how large it is) be angry and punish me, if I do not offer him flowers and fruits and chant mantras?
I heard someone say once, “If God truly decides to punish u, he could do it in such a way you couldn’t even possibly imagine in your wildest dreams – incidents like tsunami would be just be the icing on the cake”.
I am not against God, or an any religion. I’m just sadden by the acts done by people who claim to be the voice of God. As u mentioned in your 19th reason, most priest (of almost in every religion that I know off) are committing some kind of crime whether they are caught or not, and is only recently coming to the media’s attention.
I believe there is a power above us, or else nothing would be possible. This world that we live in can’t be pure coincidence. But I wouldn’t want to put a term or title for it, more than enough people are doing it already.
I have been taught that the heaven that I’m looking for is here, right now. My prayers are simple gratitude because I am alive. I do not need a preacher to remind me of my sins, I need a master to discover what this existance is about.
I pray for the realization to recognize that today is the gift. The truest gift. The most important gift. =)
May 30, 2009 at 10:33 am |
I experienced the same thing – and it took about the same amount of time.
A key milestone for me was realizing — while still substantially a believer — the following two points:
1. God will not punish me for things over which I have no control
2. I have no control over whether I believe in him or not
The second part was key. I realized that it isn’t possible to *decide* to believe (you can decide to act as if you believe, but not actually to have belief itself).
On that realization, I felt free, in the style of Descartes, to put all my beliefs under the microscope and not be scared if I found that some of them dissolved. Many of them — religious and otherwise — did. My long-held belief in God was one of them.
These days, I’m content to “not know” stuff about a lot of things. Is there a God? What is God’s nature if there is one? What does the word “God” denote anyway? I’m glad I used to believe, because it lets me understand believers (in a way, for example, that Richard Dawkins probably never can). And I’m glad I no longer believe because believing, now that I see it from the outside, while seductive and comforting at times, is vastly overrated as a whole.
I am now content, in the face of many more questions than before, simply to shrug.
May 30, 2009 at 10:38 am |
I am a Christian, but before I try to convince you of which religion to choose, you should know that there is irrefutable proof that there is a God.
That proof lies within each one of us.
No matter what you think about evolution or otherwise, you should know that your own human self realization and consciousness is not something that will ever be able to be explained by science and that alone proves that you were created by God.
Science today, more and more points to the fact the God is real, and in my opinion, points more and more to the fact that Christianity is the true religion.
In order to believe that God is real and Jesus Christ is Lord, I would suggest that you spend less time looking at what others are doing (i.e. Catholics vs Protestants) and spend more time looking at what God has done for you.
And more on what God has done for you. You are angry with him for being silent, but your fears are taken out of context. Would you feel like you had a whole lot more to say to the world after you sent your only son to die a terrible death on the cross?
I would submit that you never really were a Christian before. I do not mean this as an insult, but as a chance for you to look back once more and heed my words. Did you ever truly invite Jesus Christ into your heart? Did you accept his free gift of salvation?
Animal sacrifices as you described are no longer needed because the perfect sacrifice, God’s own son died for us. I would submit that 2000 years ago is not that long ago to God.
God is God and we are not. That is the way it is, that is the way it will forever be. New Christians struggle with this, but you must accept it.
If you want to discuss any of this, feel free to email me at gblilleyusmc@aol.com
Christ loves you,
I Love you,
May 30, 2009 at 11:24 am |
Benjamin
“That proof lies within each one of us.”
That means, you cannot point to any proof.
“No matter what you think about evolution or otherwise, you should know that your own human self realization and consciousness is not something that will ever be able to be explained by science and that alone proves that you were created by God.”
No, it does not. First of all, you presuppose that science will never explain concioussness. Second, you also presuppose that if science do not have an explanation for something, then God exists. That is the famous “God of the gaps” argument: we cannot explain this or that, so god exists.
“Science today, more and more points to the fact the God is real”
Really? So tell why most of the top scientists on the National Academy of Sciences are atheists.
‘and in my opinion, points more and more to the fact that Christianity is the true religion.”
Tell us why do you think that way.
“In order to believe that God is real and Jesus Christ is Lord, I would suggest that you spend less time looking at what others are doing (i.e. Catholics vs Protestants) and spend more time looking at what God has done for you.”
You take for granted that God has done something. Since he does not exist, he has done absolutely nothing. What you have is a collection of stories (the Bible) purpotedly describing what a certain god of a semitic tribe would have done. Similar to the stories of other nations, like the Greek and the Hindus. The only difference is that you correctly recognize Greek and Hindi mythology by what it is, mythology, while you believe Hebrew mythology is real.
“And more on what God has done for you. You are angry with him for being silent, but your fears are taken out of context. Would you feel like you had a whole lot more to say to the world after you sent your only son to die a terrible death on the cross?”
Again you take for granted that the stories of the Bible are real. First you decided that god gave us life and his son. Then, having accepted that without critical thinking, you consider outrageous that someone points to the weak points of the whole story.
“I would submit that you never really were a Christian before. I do not mean this as an insult, but as a chance for you to look back once more and heed my words. Did you ever truly invite Jesus Christ into your heart? Did you accept his free gift of salvation?”
In Brazil we have a dictum that could be tarnslated as “Do not put the chart ahead of the horses”. That is exactly what you are doing. You ask us to first believe without question, aand then to examine the evidence.
“God is God and we are not. That is the way it is, that is the way it will forever be. New Christians struggle with this, but you must accept it.”
Irrelevant.
I got tired of people saying thebeattitude has not understood true religion, or belonged to the wrong denomination, or did not got the true meaning of the Bible, or something like that. These people, you among them, finish the post without really addressing any of the points thebeattitude raised.
May 30, 2009 at 10:41 am |
“Prayers are never answered. Certainly not in the way Jesus described. Prayer has absolutely no affect on the world around us.”
How do you know? Have you heard all of the prayers ever said to Jesus?
May 30, 2009 at 10:47 am |
beijaflor77 had some good insights regarding each of the 20 positions, but i pose this question instead (since your blog highlights “happy are those who ask questions”).
do any of these 20 points disprove the existence of a deity?
the deity may be one that you do not like, but one’s distaste for god does not disprove his/her existence. i personally have not heard of any “proofs” or arguments for god’s non-existence. the argument that i can’t prove disbelief gets a little tiresome because it fails to wrestle with the logical conclusions of belief.
there are a few questions of that lead to belief i think the atheist must deal with:
where does morality come from if not from god? (without his existence morals do not exist, and i can rape, steal, and kill anyone child i want without this acts being wrong, just a bit taboo)
why is there something rather than nothing? (one must wrestle with the mere fact that we are here)
how did this complex something come into existence? (the fact that the something is complex seems to be difficult to explain with “it just is” reasoning)
i do not want to argue but rather continue to ask questions. i do not believe any of the 20 arguments to be a persuasive case for the non-existence of a deity but rather to dislike religious organization (specifically in this case christianity).
May 30, 2009 at 12:06 pm |
There is no proof of a deity, but there is no way to disprove the existence of a deity either.The religions of the world describe the characteristics of a man-made god and serve nothing to prove their version of god is true.
May 30, 2009 at 2:15 pm |
you didn’t answer the three questions i posed though.
where does morality come from?
why is there something rather than nothing?
what explains the something’s complexity?
i guess the argument would be, it is more logical to believe a deity exists than believing one does not exist.
May 30, 2009 at 2:21 pm
My purpose isn’t to disprove a deity exists. That is pointless since it is impossible to prove or disprove it with absolute certainty.
This post is simply to discuss the reasons for my rejection of the Christian version of god.
Here are few questions:
Why are atheists moral?
Why does every complex and unexplained thing in the universe prove a god exists?
May 30, 2009 at 3:13 pm
This is easy.
Morality comes from human evolution. Immoral people were put to death or cast out, unable to procreate. It has been made clear over tens of thousands of years that the majority of people in society who act in a way that harms the community inhibits their ability to live successfully. Obviously, humanity is still a work in progress, but it is quite reasonable to explain the existence of morality through a historical lens.
Furthermore, it is good to pose questions that do not have answers. This is the purpose of science; to answer these questions. And science is doing a very good job of illuminating previous unknowns all the time.
The mere fact that these answers are unknown at this point in time proves nothing other than importance of science. Questions do not demand conclusions NOW and a person who insists they do will either have to convince themselves of convenient falsehoods or spend a lifetime in frustration.
May 31, 2009 at 2:58 pm
You seem to be unaware of the “divine command dilemma” first expressed by Plato in his dialogue, Euthyphro. Is something good because God says commands it, or does God command it because it is good? The theist has no advantage in explaining the origin of morals.
Likewise, the theist has no advantage in explaining the origin of everything. They never seem to provide a satisfactory to the question, “who created God?”
Naive theists confuse a lack of answers to such questions for evidence that God did it.
May 30, 2009 at 2:24 pm |
By the persuasion of what diety you form your questionare?
May 30, 2009 at 3:24 pm |
atheists know morality because they are, by origin, made in God’s image.
The fact that there are too many complex and unexplained things in this world that our human mind cannot comprehend already proves that there is a God. And that God himself is complex and deep.
May 30, 2009 at 3:42 pm |
the BEattitude,
first and foremost i appreciate your responses. i would say that the repercussions of a deity existing or not has major implications for the way one lives their life. your statement that you reject the christian version of god seems to leave the gate open that a deity could exist?
regarding your questions, i would say that atheists are not moral. to admit to being a moral person one would have to admit that there are morals out there that they align themselves with. without a god morals cannot exist. there is a means of getting along with people, but there is no right and wrong because there is nothing to determine what is right and wrong. so i would say atheists partake in certain behavior because it makes them feel good or allows them to live a better life.
i like the second question. it is thought provoking. depending on one’s worldview the answers could vary. but the response would be that logically complete randomness could not produce such fine tuned complexities that operate together, which, without belief in a deity, would be the only way to explain existence. can you answer my questions?
meredith,
morality, in the sense that i use the word, does not come from human evolution. if by morality you mean a set of principals humans developed for our species to remain in existence; than yes, your explanation would be well fit. but when i use the word “morality” i mean the inherent rightness of an act. thus, certain acts are right or wrong. without a deity there is no authority to declare what is right or what is wrong. so there is nothing inherently wrong with raping an 8 year old girl. it is simply taboo or frowned upon.
i agree that science is vastly important, even to a deist. i do not see a correlation between believing science can give us answers to question and the need to reject the existence of god.
darkmatter,
i can’t grammatically understand your question, but i am a protestant christian (if that’s what you’re getting after).
May 30, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Moral, or right or wrong, is largely determined by conducting yourself in a way that affects those around you. If you rape an 8 year-old girl, you are acting in a way that negatively affects the lives of others, and thus the community and would thus, be shunned under most circumstances.
Human communities can only exist if the people within them operate according to a certain code of conduct. If everyone is allowed to rape children, then there would be war, death, communities would be torn apart.
The success of the human race and its communities depended on the ingraining of an understanding of right and wrong.
Is lying right or wrong? If a man could not stand his wife’s outfit, but she was beaming with pride, it is not wrong for him to tell her he thinks she looks beautiful. But if an accountant tells someone he is paying their bills, when really his is pocketing the person’s money, that is wrong.
The better measure of morality is the affect of actions on other people, rather than a dictate from a book of myths written by men for political purposes.
May 30, 2009 at 7:52 pm
meredith,
this is my last comment because i think we’ll end up going back into circles soon. without any sort of declarative morality there is no morality. if it is accepted by the community to sacrifice babies by catching them on fire, is that a moral act? to state that the community determines the rightness or wrongness seems like a HUGE slippery slope (much more than the wife’s horrendous outfit). what if i live in a community of serial killers, and they take pride in killing people of other communities. who’s community determines the rightness or wrongness?
May 30, 2009 at 8:42 pm
okay, my last comment, too.
again, my point is missed. morality is not just determined by the negative effects on the community, but the negative effects in individuals. perhaps i should have stated this more clearly, but i thought when i said, “morality is determined by conducting yourself in a way that affects THOSE AROUND YOU.”
being a serial killer negatively affects the individuals you have killed. even if you are part of a community that does so.
please try and understand that what i am saying.
if your actions have an unjustifiable negative affect on someone else’s life, they are immoral.
morality evolved because those whose actions adversely affected others where largely expunged during the majority of the period of human evolution. There was morality before christianity and there will be morality after christianity.
there can be no such thing as declarative morality because not all communities share the same values.
furthermore, non-believers are some of the kindest, most moral people in the country – while christians are some of the worst. so, whatever this declarative morality the bible offers hasn’t blazed a trail of righteousness the rest of us should follow.
May 31, 2009 at 3:08 pm
but when i use the word “morality” i mean the inherent rightness of an act. thus, certain acts are right or wrong. without a deity there is no authority to declare what is right or what is wrong. so there is nothing inherently wrong with raping an 8 year old girl. it is simply taboo or frowned upon.
So something is right or wrong because God says so?
If Yahweh said it was right to kill your child, would that make it right?
If God said it was good to kill an entire tribe of thousands of people, including women, children, even fetuses, even the livestock they owned, would that make it right?
If God said it was OK for one human being to own another, and even set up rules under which such transactions ought to occur, would that make it right?
This is one horn of the Euthyphro dilemma: if something is good simply because God commands it, then good and bad are completely arbitrary. This is a theoretical problem for divine command morals.
In the case of Judeo-Christianity, this is accompanied by the empirical finding that the Biblical God Yahweh commanded some things which we all know to be immoral.
May 30, 2009 at 10:48 am |
Hi theBEattitude,
I have read with great interest your comments since I just tried to break down what you’re struggling with. I think you are even more following ‘the god idea’ by being a better husband, father and son than many people you just think they’re good because they go to church every Sunday. In regards to your Top 20 list, the only thing I would comment is that people tend to follow their animal instinct rather than for the greater god of human kind. Maybe you would like to have a look at my post and it helps to feel less…shall we say ‘left out’…
http://stereofiasco.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/somewhere-between-god-and-dog/
Would love to hear what your thoughts on this are.
May 30, 2009 at 10:49 am |
Hello.
I understand/support with not only everything the blogger said, but everything that was said about the horrors of God, the Holy Bible, the church and Christianity. I find it horrifically sad that people have been turned away from God, but I understand why it happens-and why it will continue to happen. I only disagree with one conclusion the blogger came to. That person said: according to the Bible, 70% of people are pretty much banned from going to Heaven. I would say, considering the horrible rules written in the Bible, that 98% of people aren’t going to Heaven.
I support everyone in their endeavors. Good luck in all that you do. May you find peace, love and happiness-wherever life takes you.
May 30, 2009 at 10:50 am |
Very nicely articulated piece. Well said.
May 30, 2009 at 10:52 am |
[...] leave a comment » Disclaimer: I do not have anything against christianity. I just feel that this article is somewhat interesting. Credits: http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/ [...]
May 30, 2009 at 10:52 am |
Sorry you came to these conclusions. The God you describe is not the God of Jesus I know or have a full relationship with. I think what has tripped up Christians are man-made institutions, beliefs, and interpretations of God’s word which mostly have served to adulterate the Christian faith. I am a Christian who habors no guilt and I live a daily life of prayer, joy, and service to others.
Good luck to you – I hope your life is one of joy and abundance wherever it may lead you.
May 30, 2009 at 10:54 am |
im incredibly sad because i am a believe of God. but because i am a believer of God, i will respect your decision. and there’s not much for me to say, because even if i start listing all that is good about being a christian, i don’t think you will change your mind. but i know u know best about the happiness that comes with believing in God. and i also believe that this is an obstacle God specially made for you with the price of his broken heart. i know for sure that God is crying as of right now. as for whether u become a christian again, i honestly have no clue, but u will feel empty and u will either continue to feel empty, or fill it with the wrong thing. because that hole was made specially for God to fit in and it doesn’t matter what you fill it with, as long as it’s not God, it will be like the wrong puzzle piece.
best of luck.
brother, seek and you WILL find.
May 30, 2009 at 10:54 am |
I wonder why we never see “Why I Became A Christian” on the front page of WordPress? The fastest growing religion in the world seems to receive scant positive attention these days. Thoughts?
May 31, 2009 at 3:42 pm |
good idea, I will post one to my blog soon:
http://www.dougwadedesign.wordpress.com
May 30, 2009 at 10:56 am |
They key is to follow Christ, but not necessarily what you’ve been told is the Christian religion. In my church (United Church of Christ) we say God is still speaking. We don’t force any dogma or guilt. I believe those come from man.
May 30, 2009 at 10:56 am |
I admire you for courage in publicly denouncing Christianity. I’m sure a lot of people have secretly been doubting their religion but are too afraid to question something that has been around for a long time. You on the other hand had no fear, and I think that makes you a strong person. I also laud you for your very comprehensive list. Most of the people who denounce things just rant without making any sense at all. Your article was logical, cogent, and personal.
Kudos to you!
May 30, 2009 at 10:59 am |
Be Attitudes –
I have tried to read through all these thought provoking responses — truly there are many who have been hurt by organized religion and are in the process of healing… (as I am one of those as well).
I have seen the Catholic Church brought up numerous times. I was wondering, what denomination do you hail from? (I hope that wasn’t too personal). I am disgruntled with the Baptist and the Penticostals.
It just drives me crazy that there is so much disagreement in the church — most of it by man made rules and ‘their’ inturpitation.
May 30, 2009 at 11:00 am |
Wow. I’m sorry that you reached this decision, but perhaps you need to find another religion that suits you better.
I have been through cancer and a lot of surgeries and near-death situations. I’ve cheated death at least twice. Let me tell you, prayer does work and God uses other people to create miracles. I was exactly your age when I felt the Holy Spirit breathe peace and calm into my life.
It gives me great comfort to know that I am not alone in this world, that God loves and forgives me no matter what I do. Of course, I feel that sins such as murder cannot and shouldn’t be forgiven.
The evil events such as tsunamis and hurricanes are the works of the Devil. If you don’t believe in Satan, perhaps you haven’t worked with a tyrant. LOL There are rare people who are cruel and have no redeeming value, such as Saddam Hussein, Ted Bundy and Hitler.
I hope you find a faith you can believe in, because it will bring you a wonderful sense of peace, direction, abounding courage and guidance.
May 30, 2009 at 11:01 am |
I’m sorry you feel this way. As a Christian, I somewhat understand how you can start to question your religion/beliefs. Although I’ve never come close to the level of doubt you have, I know that as HUMANS we want answers, we want to be able to understand EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, we won’t.
That’s where faith comes in. And you may say that using faith as the answer is a cop out, but it’s not. You mentioned that God doesn’t perform miracles the way he did in the Old Testament. Well, they may not be as obvious and “in your face” as feeding 5,000 people with only 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread, but He DOES still perform miracles. I’m a witness to that.
Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. God knows that it’s difficult for humans as rational beings to rely on faith when we yearn for answers. That’s when you have to trust Him.
I can keep typing, but ultimately it’s up to you if you want to go back to God. Only God can change your heart, not man.
May 30, 2009 at 11:04 am |
You need to meditate on God, Jesus Christ or any other saint top get the answers you seek as right now your understanding and appreciation of God is a little misguided. You can not blame God for man’s inadequacies, poor behavior nor can you accept the Bible as God’s word. it was written by men. While there is truth in the Bible the truth is like a needle in the haystack. You have to search for it. The atrocities committed by man in God’s name are not God’s fault. It is similar to blaming to a child for saying “I will kill you”. The child does not know what it means, nor should he, she be blamed. Are you going to cast that child into eternal damnation, fire? The answer no and if you can not how can you expect God to. God is not wrathful, jealous, hateful, kills nations of people, etc. It is man because of misguided conceptions, actions karma (some of which like beyond this life, i.e. from past lives) that determines his fat. You reap what you sow. There is free choice to follow God or not. When you don’t you suffer the consequences. You should follow those who succeed not those who fail. I suggest you read the Second Coming of Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda (two volume set, 1600+ pages). Everything you hold onto in this life will eventually disappoint you. Your children will leave home,. Your wife, friend, etc,. will die. Your body will get weak and sick. What will not get weak or sick is God, which is your eternal birthright. The purpose of Jesus and all other saints was to show you the pathway back to God. You need to be near a God realized master or read that master’s work in order to truly appreciate God, get a better idea, even when things are not going well. Most churches and temples are devoid of God unlike the church, temple within you. You can never escape God since he is within you always. He is the ultimate good as is beyond all identification, family, friends, possessions, etc. Your present dissatisfaction is just part of your journey and is no different from any one else’s. If you want to blame God, fine just don’t let it make you a bad person. God is the best thing about religion, which is why religion has endured for so long, why a man like Jesus, only active for three plus years could change the world.
May 30, 2009 at 11:20 am |
“You can not blame God for man’s inadequacies, poor behavior nor can you accept the Bible as God’s word. it was written by men. While there is truth in the Bible the truth is like a needle in the haystack. You have to search for it.”
Are you God giving advice?
May 30, 2009 at 11:59 am |
God is the best thing about religion, which is why religion has endured for so long.”
Religion has endured because people are terrified of death and constantly searching for answers why we are here on earth.
May 30, 2009 at 8:04 pm |
Do you suppose that rejecting religion will make people any less terrified of death or cease searching for answers to why they’re on Earth?
I think what you’re trying to say is that religion answers (or attempts to answer) these sorts of questions. But that in itself does not explain its longevity.
As long as mortality exists, those questions will exist. An atheist who claims to have no fear of death is either being a) dishonest, b) hates life, or c) hasn’t really thought his/her ideas through to their logical conclusion (i.e. death).
When you think about it, isn’t absolute non-existence more frightening than an eternity in hell?
May 30, 2009 at 11:06 am |
Hopefully someday the human race will break the shackles of dogma and superstition, and instead turn to logic and rationality when they have questions about life, the universe and everything.
One person at a time we can evolve out of this primitive belief structure built upon belief in magic and silly fairy tales. Congratulations, dear blogger.
May 30, 2009 at 11:08 am |
That’s smart.
I deconverted a year ago, and I’ve never been happier.
You should read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan. Atheism is really a fullfilling position.
May 30, 2009 at 12:25 pm |
Thanks for the recommendations!
May 30, 2009 at 3:19 pm |
Other good books: God is not Great, The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, Atheist Universe; Subscribe to Skeptic Magazine – all great free thinker references.
May 30, 2009 at 11:08 am |
It’s just sad that you put god into your own perspective. Sorry, but I just couldn’t find anything as Christian saying those that lived and died, who doesn’t know Jesus will be condemned to hell. Sorry pal, but you thought you lived long enough to understand everything about your religion. It never was black and white in the first place so why put it in that perspective? You’ve researched right? But you’ve researched in the wrong aisle in a different library. Do I doubt my faith or my religion? YES I DO! Everyone does! The logic that you presented in this article is no difference than those that were presented by other atheists… Sorry if ever this offends you. But oh well, I respect you.
May 30, 2009 at 11:11 am |
P.S. You need to understand the role of “bad”. It gives you a chance to be good (the ultimate of which is God), just like Jesus when he said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” He said this after being crucified and speared in the abdomen. His message was that love overcomes hate. You can not over come hate with more hate. It not only never works but also makes you the same as the hateful person.
May 30, 2009 at 11:57 am |
How exactly have I hated? Questioning religious theology does not equate to evil. It only does from your perspective as a believer.
May 30, 2009 at 11:18 am |
Hi again. I replied to this once before, but there’s a few more things I’d like to say. I support everything the blogger says, and understand why atheism is on the rise. I understand why non-believers are on the rise. I love the Holy Father with all of my heart, but I do not consider myself Christian. I consider myself “spiritual”. I do not approve of organized religion, or the way this nation alone has justified violence/hatred in God’s name. I can’t stand how the Bible is frequently used as a weapon, especially since it was written by human hands-not God Himself. It will be easier to prove to me Santa Claus exists. God did not write/type the Bible, and He did not send it to us from Heaven. It was all done by human hands. I do not approve of how people use the name of God to kill/alienate gays, oppress women, and trap people in so-called “normal” marriages.
It’s horrifying how mankind, in this nation alone, has slaughtered God’s name. I don’t blame people for being/becoming non-believers.
May 30, 2009 at 11:34 am |
Then do something about it. You can first remind the churches that your God’s kingdom is not of this world. Don’t say mankind is horrifying. Don’t underestimate the implications of your statement.
May 30, 2009 at 11:20 am |
I see a bunk of crap with Christians again judging you when their “God” tells them not too. I’m happy to see you come to reason and now you can no longer indoctrinated and unbeknownst, you can live life freely. I have never been religious, but people think that just because you don’t have a religion that you don’t have good morals. I disagree with this. If anything, we non-believers are usually the ones that help people, we don’t go around saying, I’ll help you but at the same time let me throw all this nonsense in your ear about how the lord has come to save you and all this crap. We help people because we have morals. I wish the best for you. Maybe the next step for a deeper understanding would be Philosophy, I’m in my Masters going for a PhD in Philosophy of Religion. I’ll tell you, it might open your eyes to a world you haven’t seen before.
May 30, 2009 at 11:29 am |
BEattitude, after reading your story, your sentence in which you said, “The weight of guilt, unworthiness and fear of god’s judgment” let me know why you experienced the difficulties of being a Christian. You were trying too hard to gain God’s acceptance without the knowledge of you even belonging to Him.
Most Christians have no fear of God’s judgment because they realize that salvation is not because we are worthy, but because God loves the worthless! In other words, we are unworthy of God’s acceptance but we are not worthless for Him to save us!
What a burden to carry, to live your life with every iota of action made to be for God’s acceptance! None of us will ever be saved that way! We are saved by God’s grace and not our own actions. (Eph 2:8-9). You just never believed that!
The born-again Christian belongs to God forever more with no fear of His eternal judgment. And sure, we all have questions, but better to have questions as God’s children (John 1:12) than to question Him and stand in His eternal judgment – whether you believe in it or not!
You never experienced the peace that God gives us when we surrender ourselves to Him completely and experience the complete assurance that we belong to Him. (1 John 5:11-13)
The one thing that keeps me going when I begin to have major doubts is the person of Jesus Christ. He is real and the evidence that supports His existence is too overwhelming. His suffering on the cross helps me immensely – to know that God’s Son Himself purposely suffered so that we too can have a relationship with God. Christ’s suffering makes God very real to me, and His resurrection gives me the hope that yes, there IS a God!
It’s never too late to receive the true gift of salvation and never again fear God’s judgment!
On my blog I have a resource section that has apologetics sites that deal with the very questions you have raised. Feel free to check them out if you still want to know. Otherwise, I’m praying for your true deliverance and freedom!
May 30, 2009 at 11:39 am |
Just command in Jesus’ Name that BEattitude be delivered and the Jesus will do your bidding. Your resource section may not be inspired by God.
May 30, 2009 at 12:19 pm |
Since you have not lived his experience, you cannot interpret his feelings and criticize them this way without become an oppressor. Oppressors interpret and explain other people’s experiences for their own benefit. Please speak from your own experience only.
My experience and that of many of my friends was the same in regards to this point. Children are indoctrinated in the belief that humans are naturally bad because of the Fall. That means that for the rest of their lives, they are trying to act as good as possible, while knowing that they will never be good enough. It is repeated over and over again until it is just accepted as natural, but from my perspective, there is nothing natural about it. Children are good. They learn strategies to protect themselves as they grow up that can be harmful to themselves and other people, but children are good!
May 30, 2009 at 11:33 am |
please visit http://www.islaam.ca/
May 30, 2009 at 11:55 am |
I’m not searching for a new god to worship.
May 30, 2009 at 11:56 am |
I am worried for my foreskin.
May 30, 2009 at 11:38 am |
I just stumbled on here, but wanted to give you some support, especially for your point 15:
“The only reason I was a Christian was because I was indoctrinated into the religion as a child as a result of the culture and region of the world in which I was born.”
I was born and raised atheist. My parents are both non-believers, and had been for a long time before my birth. I am now a 28 year old woman, and, even though I have been confronted many times about my non-belief, I have never, ever, had any doubts or thoughts that maybe my parents (and all my sisters) are wrong. My parents raised me in a loving, caring environment, and taught me to be good, just for the sake of it, not to “please” a god/gods. Being of mixed cultures, I celebrate both Christian and Muslim holidays, but the main focus is family togetherness, not religion.
I am happy for the way I was raised, I can’t imagine the hardship you all went through to reach your non-belief. It is not an easy thing to do. I know that I will also raise my children as atheist, but allow them the chance to discover religion as it does have an incredible history in humankind, and to be able to have the knowledge behind them if they ever are confronted by religious people as I have been so many times in the past…
May 30, 2009 at 11:41 am |
First of all I would like to welcome you on this side of the road. Interesting points you have put here and as a person born into a different religion as yours and studying the others, I can definitely say that believing in a just God is impossible.
Every religion I believe is just a growth of few commandments or norms that it is expected would lead the people in living in a society with harmony. Absence of rules lead to chaos and religions provide these rules. God is just a threat so that the rules are followed.
Now, with the advancements and the arrival of governments these rules are no longer needed and hence their flaws can be seen. It is only our blind faith and the fear that has grown over the centuries in our genes that we are not able to reject the religions.
May 30, 2009 at 11:44 am |
(Happy to those who ask question??irrational!!-question are for those who unsatisfied=unhappy)
Old man,questioning the existances of God is like questioning your existance in this life. If you want to life with you are the center of your world (note :you=your own brain can reach+your maximal effort), so be it(pity..). The sad thing is, you put all blame of that unsatisfied or unanswer question on Christianity (which you are -like you said-Christian by born not choise). You never be a Christian, don’t you ever said you was..
May 30, 2009 at 11:50 am |
God told you to say that or your feelings?
May 30, 2009 at 11:53 am |
Should I change my header to say “happy are those than believe everything they’re told”?
May 30, 2009 at 11:46 am |
To all of the devout Christians claiming that nowhere does it say that a disbelief in God or Jesus equals eternal damnation under your religion:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unholiness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice” (Romans 1:18).
^^ We can play the bible-quoting game, too.
May 30, 2009 at 11:53 am |
That is for christians(those men that detain the truth of God in injustice), not unbelievers. But then, christians like to put the blame on mankind because they are now “little gods”.
May 30, 2009 at 12:00 pm |
It sounds as though you’re still pissed off at God and religion. I think that’s a pretty natural phase on the way to atheism, but I believe that real peace comes in accepting there’s no God to be pissed off at.
The world is full of people who believe for a variety of reasons. For some, it’s a matter of having been raised to believe, and lacking the desire or will to question what they were taught. For others, their belief makes them part of something…of a community, of a shared world-view. My take on it is, “Whatever gets you through the night.”
I’m an atheist. I don’t feel a need to argue my beliefs or debate them (unless someone wants to). I’m content with who I am, and I want others to respect my beliefs and leave me to them, just as I leave them to theirs.
Keep questioning everything. It’s what life is all about.
May 30, 2009 at 12:02 pm |
I totally agree with your point. I think it is pointless to be attached to religions of this kind at this moment where the world has moved foward in so many aspects, like science, technology and human behavior.
Catholicism is just one of the many religions that are still making money out of the conservative and less educated or lacking of information human beings.
May 30, 2009 at 12:10 pm |
“Surprisingly it was a relief. Not because I wanted to run wild and sin freely, but because I no longer felt the weight a Christian carries. The weight of guilt, unworthiness and fear of god’s judgement.”
I love this part. My feeling was very similar. It was tough growing up with the guilt and the understanding that I was naturally a bad person. I currently don’t follow a particular religion, and I’m finding much more joy in just living.
Thank you for sharing this much needed perspective!
May 30, 2009 at 12:12 pm |
It is a relief to hear that others have gone through the same thing as myself. After attending 13 years of Catholic school and thinking that I was literally going to hell almost on a daily basis I began to realize that I didn’t agree with a lot of teaching that were crammed down my throat. Most of the teaching was done with fear behind it instead of love. I wanted to live without fear, in peace and love. It took a good 16 years for me to get over some things and be able to talk about some of my experiences without getting all choaked up. I’m now able to talk and have others talk to me about religion without instantly striking a nerve in my body. I doubt that I will ever join another religion but, I can finally be at peace with myself.
May 30, 2009 at 12:14 pm |
I don’t think you were ever really a true believer in Christ. God says once you are His, no one can snatch you out of His hand.
May 30, 2009 at 2:15 pm |
I am going through a similar process as BEattitude. I “lost my religion” just last year – at least I no longer describe myself as a Christian. And no one can tell me that I was not a true believer in Christ – no one. I was Saved at 14 – God called me out and I submitted my life to Him. It was no mere intellectual decision to join the Church. Had a classic mountain top experience while serving in the mission field when 25 and “walked in the Spirit” (at least from my perspective) for at least a year after I returned back to the States.
But I have to tell you that I have always had trouble reconciling my EXPERIENCE of God with the WORD of God. In fact, my first doubts came when I actually read the Old Testament all the way through. I had read the NT multiple times over and admittedly put more weight on the passages that inspired me. The disconnect between the OT and NT (to me) is a bit jarring. Now, at first I just searched out the moral lessons from to OT, but there is too much crazy in there to ignore. Especially concerning the nature of God. Now add in the disconnect between the Biblical world view (spiritual warfare and what not) versus reality (mind bogglingly complex and beautiful world of natural) and my brain began to wonder.
I am now 44 years old and have a better grasp on how the world works, especially human nature. I don’t know about BEattitude, but my loss of religion is really more of a perspective shift. I believe that the Holy Spirit (which still guides me by the way) is really just HUMAN INTUITION, part of me and ALL humans, not just Christians. Operating in this mode of thinking can seem supernatural. When circumstances line up in certain ways it seems miraculous. When things go wrong we have to write it off as God’s Will and except (come up with) a lesson He is teaching us. Human perception is a tricky thing. And while I still want to keep the door open for God, a lot (if not all) of the phenomena can be explained by human psychology.
Also, spiritual/intuitive thinking, without a good dose of rational thought lets “false teachers” rob and pull Jim Jones type mind hacks on the faithful. So sure, follow the Lord, but don’t forget the MIND OF REASON he gave you.
The mistake is letting a religion claim ownership of a natural part of the human conscience (namely intuition) and coerce your behavior with dogma and “holy text” (questionably) written by God.
May 30, 2009 at 12:15 pm |
Good post. I feel the same way. I’m not as far along in life as you are, but I too have reached similar conclusions about why Christianity does not make sense, and why there is no longer a reason for me to pretend I agree with the religion. I was raised in a Baptist family (and a girl, how fun…) and as I grew up didn’t agree with most of their teachings. I find it entirely possible to have good morals and values separate from religion. I also believe that religion is an excuse for some (but not all) people to do horrible things. To suppress others. To use others. So thank you for reminding me why I feel the way I do.
May 30, 2009 at 12:18 pm |
I answer this from my logical intellectuality. What yours said?
May 30, 2009 at 12:20 pm |
I think this is a great post. Its a good thing that people are standing out and voicing their concerns as a part of a growing number of people who is getting distressed by the increasing grasp of religion in all its forms and the social control it entails. What you are saying is something that is needed to be said. Plus, its an enjoyable read. You’re awesome!
May 30, 2009 at 12:23 pm |
I am a Christian, born in Indonesia, a country of about 250,000,000 population with about 80-90% are Moslems. Our churches believe we are more than the official report, tho..
We do live with superstition. We see it, and we have found it difficult to explain to the westerners that magic is real till they experienced it themselves.
But we have heard many times westerners like you leaving Christianity. Or, after living in Indonesia for a while, met Indonesian women, they simply converted to be able to marry our women. But we know it’s only on paper.
In Indonesia, if we want to start a church we will have to obtain permissions from a long list of people and community. It’s not easy. When we do get the permission, we will get problem building it. Some people will write protest (and then it turn out later that they are not from the neighbourhood who has the right to complain).
Our churches have been burnt, priests (and their families) were killed..
We have to get security to guard the church during the Christmas service because somebody might put bomb near the church.. yet the security don’t really protect us anyway..
But we don’t fight back. Just continue building the church. Continue our community services. Continue accepting insults. Some of us would get angry, we don’t blame them, yet we continue trying to please our persecutors because we understand why they do those harm to us. We really have to put our pride to the lowest just to build the church here.
The next day after a church was blown on 24 December, people came to the church to continue praying. We just love Christ so much. Yes, we are not afraid of death for being Christians.
However, in our difficulties, we do see miracles.
Our churches continue to grow.
On the other hands. Our Indonesian fellows, who are not Christians, they would consistently pray five times a day. Plus waking up at 2 or 3 am in the morning to do an early morning prayer. To find their God’s acceptance.
Today, a group of people is trying to change our constitution to be based on their religion law. What power do we have to stop it? Just prayer. Do we stop going to church? Do we start wondering if there is God?
Some archeologist shows evidents that they found Noah’s ark.. Yet, not so many Indonesian-Christians have heard about it.
So, some people like my family would skip going out with friends on new year eve because we have to go to church and do a new year prayer at 00:00 with the family.
Do we have burden?
Yeach, I did have burden. But not that kind of burden like questioning why God.. My burden was more on how would I be able to please God? Does God really love me? I looked at my sin (wrongdoing) and it made me difficult to believe that I could just come toward Him and He will give me a hug.
On the other hand, I have read the Bible and I know the teaching real well.. He forgives. But it was difficult to understand how He forgives.
I went through 7 years of self Bible study till I finally got the understanding about love. And it’s really relieving to know that God forgives me, and that I can be me without bothering what others would say about me. Good or bad Christian. I don’t care. I don’t even put my religious view in my facebook page. I just simply put “There is God”. Because my faith in Christ is not about the name of my religion that only give me barriers that I don’t need.
The fact is, I have found the answer: I am a free woman, and God is on my side.
Peace be to you.
May 30, 2009 at 12:25 pm |
Okay, dude, seriously. I’ve seen this posted in the comments at least once before now and I didn’t even read through all of them. Reposting the same comment is
1)annoying
2)unnecessary, and
3)evidently due to your need for attention
So seriously. Stop.
May 30, 2009 at 12:39 pm |
Why?
But, yes, I resend it thinking that I might have sent it in the wrong way, that I should have sent it underneath. If that’s what bothers you, sorry.
June 1, 2009 at 9:27 pm
Dear Dian,
Don’t bother to apologize, you have the right to comment on anything as much as you like………………….this is called “to witness what Jesus has done in your life………..” It doesn’t matter whether you write 2 times or even 1000 times……….this is a free blog……………….
For bloggers who were “annoyed” …… so seriously…just skip!
May 30, 2009 at 12:25 pm |
This is one of the most interesting and real posts I have ever read in a Blog ….
I am almost at the same point …. after 33 years of catholicism
May 30, 2009 at 12:27 pm |
it’s refreshing to hear your process. i am a poet & do write allot about the experince that you provide as well as the process involved. if you would like to read my poetry or listen to my spoken word, it is available on http://www.myspace.com/10kpoets .
2 things that u might find interesting are “I Have Found” & “A True Liberator” – these are spoken word productions
Also, i’d like to include these 2 videos for your possible viewing, the information is astounding:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/ video on page
Always Peace
glen still
May 30, 2009 at 12:31 pm |
It’s a little distressing, the concept of religion versus atheism that’s being paraded around these days, with one side talking about the Bible as a ludicrous, irrational document, and the other side safely nestled into a comfortable, anxiety-ridden place where they believe that some kind of “salvation” is guaranteed by a simple acceptance of what amounts, in ninety nine percent of cases, to a creed.
The kind of atheism you talk about is a sort of waking up from religion, a sort of realization that the formalism associated with organized, dogmatic religion is more than a little preposterous. The contemporary “secular humanist” or atheist feels, in some ways, betrayed by religion.
But this position is only the beginning of wisdom, and I do hope that you don’t end your search there. I’m not saying you’ll go back to Christianity– hopefully you won’t go back anywhere– but maybe, if you keep looking, you will realize that there’s a depth and insight in books like the Tanakh and the various Gospels that grapples with some very visceral truths about what it means to be human.
For example, you say that Yaweh does not act holy in the Tanakh, but perhaps you misunderstand the concept of holiness– which was, in many ways, pioneered by the Tanakh. In the Hebrew, holiness is about a separation, a sometimes strange and surreal distinction, and it is not a separation between good and evil, much less a separation between modern Protestant or Catholic conceptions of good and evil.
You might also interrogate the Bible as to this very modern conception of Hell, as a sort of infinite torture. For that matter, there are rather modern conceptions of Hell that make a great deal more sense than any kind of fire and brimstone. One of the easiest to read and understand might be found in C.S. Lewis’s “The Great Divorce.” I might also ask you what you mean when you say that prayers are never answered in the way Jesus talks about. If I’m recalling my Gospels correctly, Jesus constantly demands that man ask for less and less of God, and seems to advocate that man trust God to provide whatever is needed.
All that being said, I am not arguing for Christianity– I am not a Christian, myself– instead, I am prompting you to take a new look at some of these very old, very rich documents. All of your objections are focused on a particular, very contemporary, very Protestant-influenced perspective of the Bible. Logic and reason are, at best, half of our mind– and we don’t stop reading and learning from Homer just because we have no idea who he was and how much of what he wrote was true in the most banal sense of the word.
Look deeper and you will find more than a sense of relief at having thrown off a painful, anxiety-ridden dogma: you may find that your spirit can still grow wings.
May 30, 2009 at 12:38 pm |
“Look deeper and you will find more than a sense of relief at having thrown off a painful, anxiety-ridden dogma: you may find that your spirit can still grow wings.”
What is your problem with humanity?
May 30, 2009 at 1:24 pm |
Read my blog and find out, since it seems you at least read the title of one of the posts to pose this question?
May 30, 2009 at 1:29 pm
But I’d like to hear you here if you don’t mind?
May 30, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Well, I spent a fair number of words on the matter, and it seems that people who are interested in what I have said or what I have to say could stand to read some of those words and judge for themselves. It would be inappropriate, rude, and distracting to discuss my own blog posts on this fellow’s blog, especially when they are only tangentaly related, wouldn’t it?
If the author of this blog finds my work compelling or controversial enough to reply to my postings on my blog, he will undoubtedly leave a pingback. In the mean time, you can read about what I mean when I talk about overcoming humanity on my blog.
May 30, 2009 at 1:43 pm |
I take it as a no and by the way, you are replying to me.
May 30, 2009 at 1:47 pm
I know that I’m replying to you. If you want to talk about my blog, though, let’s talk about my blog on my blog, eh?
Unless you mean that you are the author of this blog, in which case you aren’t logged in as the author of this blog, are you? The author of this blog seems to go by the screen name BEattitude.
May 31, 2009 at 5:05 am
I am guestioning your problem with humanity by your post here. You asumme I am interested to talk about your blog.
“Unless you mean that you are the author of this blog, in which case you aren’t logged in as the author of this blog, are you? The author of this blog seems to go by the screen name BEattitude.”
This is funny.
May 31, 2009 at 8:36 am
We can do better.
May 30, 2009 at 12:33 pm |
You have reached appoint many people have over the years, even some of the Saints.
God created man and woman in his image and likeness, then man turned around and created a God in mans image and likeness. All your points are mans projections of his experiences onto God.
There is a difference between “Religion” and “Spiritual.” Each Religion has its Theology, what the leaders have “thought” the sacred books meant over the centuries. “Spiritual” is not limited to any one sacred book or teacher … it is a search for common sense meaning on the origins of life, the living of life, and the afterlife (if any).
Think about what you would be like if you were God. It would be a far cry from what is taught by religious leaders. You would have no Hell, Devil, Punishment, or all the other things projected onto God. There is no enemy here. The religious leaders are doing what they believe – what they have been taught. None of us do or say anything that, at the time, doesn’t makes perfect sense to us. Even Hitler believed what he was doing was correct.
Where do we go from here? There are modern thinkers who see a more updated picture of God … the spiritual side of life. Some even believe God has given them a more advanced understanding of what was taught to Jesus and other great spiritual leaders.
How will you know how is telling the truth? Well, if it makes logical common sense to you, then pay attention. There are many books about the spiritual life. “Conversations With God” (3 volumes) by Neal Donald Walsch are the most recent I have been reading. They make a lot of sense to me as well as Neal’s many other books. They may not appeal to you, but if you search you will find other authors that might appeal to you.
Best of luck!!
May 30, 2009 at 12:34 pm |
[...] What better time to write about religion? PG found a thingie on the internet today. It is a list of twenty reasons why the person at BEattitude is no longer a Jesus Worshiper. It has 331 comments. Does anyone [...]
May 30, 2009 at 12:35 pm |
I am sorry you chose to leave God behind. Unfortunately we live in a society where we want all the answers and it just can’t be. You say
“7.Prayers are never answered. Certainly not in the way Jesus described. Prayer has absolutely no affect on the world around us.”
I am assuming you feel like your prayers have never been answered? Possibly you never truly committed your life to Christ, maybe you were always just going through the motions and God knows your true heart.
Christ has open arms for you still. I hope you come back to Him.
May 30, 2009 at 12:35 pm |
You make some very good points, and, it seems to me that spirituality means a lot to you. You have thought about this a great deal more than most, who just go through the motions each week. Here are my thoughts:
1. Organized religion is about international tradition, continuity, power, and authority. It is about immortalilty through community. It does work for some people. A friend explained it to me. When her husband died, there were other widows in her church who really understood and could help. (just an example). However, the detrimental aspects that you mentioned are also true, and there are more.
2. The Bible is an anthology of very old writings. It includes mythologized local history, sayings passed from father to son, poetry and songs, short stories, and metaphorical tales. Actually, much of it is quite lovely. Read “The Poet’s Bible” for some fascinating insights. It wasn’t written by “God”, except in the sense that all creativity seems to be part of a greater creative force. (I say this as an artist.) To take these writings literally actually diminishes their depth.
3. Compassionate human behavior has nothing to do with any religion. Nor does promise of reward or fear of punishment. He who is kind experiences kindness, and that is heaven.
4. Spirituality is a realization of the interconnectedness of all things. When you live as you are living, conscious of everything you are doing in the moment, and loving those around you, you are blessed.
Namaste
May 30, 2009 at 12:39 pm |
You made an entire blog complete with cute proffessional header, just to post anti Christian/Judaisim messages when much of that is open to interpretation thus why there are not one, two but three religions stemming from the same text. The third being Muslim. Much of the bible being metaphorical. If ignoring it entirely makes you feel like a good person, great for you, but obviously you are just as bad as a missionary, trying to save us with your own beliefs… rather than keep it personal.
May 30, 2009 at 1:53 pm |
My header is cute and professional? Thanks.
I’m not looking to evangelize. Christians are called to evangelize, but I started this blog simply because I enjoy discussing the things that lead me away from my faith. Biblical inconsistencies, Biblical flaws and Christian hypocrisy. You’re welcome to disagree with me.
May 30, 2009 at 12:40 pm |
You are now enjoy questioning everything and having answer of everything too.. Keep it old man.. trying to be Albert Einstein, huh?? stop blaming religion, do some usefull research and invent something!
May 31, 2009 at 1:29 pm |
Huh? I guess that you, like the character in “Inherit the Wind”, do not think about the things you do not think about.
I think that “activitist” Christians here should notice that their approach is backfiring. The more they push, the more interest is aroused by even the mildest voiced resistence. Heck, this sort of nonbelief is much more widespread than belief. Notice all the empty churches across the world and the age of the attendees–mostly lonely old ladies. The only reason people are reading and writing here is they are mad about the continual attack on social institutions (including schools and hospitals) by people spouting verbiage straight out of the depths of the Middle Ages!
May 30, 2009 at 12:40 pm |
Dear Mr. BEattitude,
Wow – quite a stir you’ve caused, thanks for your honesty. Its amazing how many people are crushing under the weight of things like this.
I was raised a Mormon, and then a Christian of every possible flavor you can name. Went to all the different churches, etc. I haven’t been to church in about five years now, but I daily struggle with the fact that I have a very deep down faith that God is with me and influences my life. From time to time I can point at it, but often it seems like a joke – and it is very difficult to discuss real doubts with other Christians. Even as a believer, I find a lot of truth in a bumper sticker I saw which said, “Jesus! Save me from your followers!”
I guess I think…there must be a way to reject the sick culture of American Christianity without rejecting God – or the experiences one has had which he or she believes to be God. For me, I guess I do that by keeping it private, and close. Not dressing up and going to church. Sadly, that also keeps the confusion and doubts private and close as well.
Good luck, BA
Otto in Seattle
May 30, 2009 at 12:43 pm |
Great post!
May 30, 2009 at 12:49 pm |
I like how the above poster mentions how bad keeping doubts “private” are…. after I just mentioned he should keep his religious philosophies to himself.
I can think of worse things, how about proffessing the truth..whether for or againt religion. Religion IS a personal thing and nobody makes you drag yourself to church if you dont want to go. By all means follow your heart…no need to tell me, though.
Seriously the subject is getting old. I don’t care, and its sad if this is your ehem… holy mission.
May 30, 2009 at 1:05 pm |
Dear Jennifer,
a) I didn’t say keeping doubts private is bad – just sad. You’d never want to talk to someone about yours, if you had them?
b) “By all means follow your heart…no need to tell me, though.” Considering your attitude, to be sure YOU are the last person I would tell. This is a public forum, not your house.
c) I was replying to the blog owner, not to your personal post, which I skimmed over briefly and didn’t tattoo on the inside of my eyelids.
d) If the subject is “getting old”, go away. Your opinion that people should keep their opinions to themselves is in itself contradictory…being that you are spouting your own opinion.
e) Blow me.
Cheers,
Otto
May 30, 2009 at 7:43 pm |
“e) Blow me.
Cheers,
Otto”
Arent you a disgusting immature person….
you tottally define internet filth.
Why go to church??
May 30, 2009 at 11:41 pm
If I define internet filth, you haven’t been around the internet much, and I must be pretty powerful. Maybe you should be prepared to be called on your crap if you rip on someone else’s heartfelt post about an impassioned topic. For someone who “doesn’t care”, its interesting that you even came back to this thread.
May 30, 2009 at 12:49 pm |
This has been a very interesting blog, and posts that follow, to read… I’m sorry for the 33 years you felt were right, but for you turned out to be false. I’m not here to argue or discuss, or pursue anyone one way or another. Just here for the good ol’ joy of reading.
May 30, 2009 at 12:50 pm |
I think a few people have mentioned Islam as an option you may want to consider. Islam is a beautiful religion, but I can say we Muslims aren’t ideal. I’m going to run through your list and kind of show them how Islam addresses them. God and Allah, mean the same…
Here’s your list:
For those wondering, here is a condensed “Top 20 List” of the things that led to my rejection of Christianity.
1. God is wrathful, jealous, hateful, and kills nations of people like it is a bodily function. He is certainly not just or “holy” in nature.
Allah says, “My Mercy precedes My Wrath.” In fact, the one concept of God most espoused in the Quran is Mercy- not blind love or hateful jealousy, but understanding Mercy.
2. The act of throwing people into infinite torture and punishment for not believing a Jewish guy from 2,000 years ago was God’s son, or unknowingly worshiping the wrong god, is extremely cruel and sadistic.
Allah says in the Quran (third chapter), “And Allah has no intention of oppressing the universe.” Islam does not, believe Jesus to be the son of God, but Allah says He sent Jesus as the Messiah. God Himself explains why Jesus cannot be the son of God- because Jesus had no father and so they called him the son of God…what about Adam, the first man, who had no father nor mother…Allah merely says, “Be” and it is. And Jesus is quoted that on the Day of Judgment God will ask him, “Did you tell them to worship you as my son?” To which he will reply saying, “God is greater than anything they ascribe to Him!”
The Prophet did mention certain groups of people who will have an excuse and argument before God on the Day of Judgment, for example, people who had never heard of Islam, or the mentally insane. Again, Mercy- not blind dogma.
3. The statements, “God works in mysterious ways,” or “It will all make sense in heaven,” are little more than irrational cop outs. This God allows horrible atrocities to be committed against innocent men, women and children every day.
One Muslim thinker, Gai Eaton, put it nicely, “Allah speaks to us through our destiny and we speak back to God through our actions.” It’s a dialogue, in more ways, than I can explain here.
4. Bloody animal and human sacrifices are illogical demands by a divine god as payment for petty wrong doings. These actions are no different than the rituals of archaic pagan religions. Not to mention the bizarre ritual of symbolically drinking human blood and eating human flesh.
In Islamic theology, no human sacrifice is mentioned except that of Abraham sacrificing Isaac or Ishmael (its disputed as to who it was) and its a teaching in our religion that this will never happen again…it was only a challenge given to Abraham, and no one will ever have to repeat anything of it, ever again.
5. If God loves us and wants us to know and believe in him, why be so completely invisible? What is the purpose of being so illusive to those who believe and worship him?
Open the Quran, read a few lines and you will feel Him. Its not easy to explain, you just have to try it. Close the Quran afterwards and feel free to not look at it again, but just try it once.
6. God never manifests himself or performs miracles as he regularly did for the Israelites in Old Testament stories.
He does. Do some research into Sufism. And yes, these miracles are of similar calibre to those of the Prophets, because Islam has inherited that tradition, free of the distortion and changes introduced in the Bible and Torah.
7. Prayers are never answered. Certainly not in the way Jesus described. Prayer has absolutely no affect on the world around us.
This time, pray to “God” and not Jesus. I’ve suggested this to Christians before but for some reason they hesitate to do so. Call upon the Creator, and ask Him to show you the Truth if you feel you are ready and deserving of it.
8. Jesus did not fulfill major Old Testament prophesies or even fulfill his own promises and predictions.
The intellectual Massignon, said, “Judaism is the religion of Prophecy. Christian is the religion of the Person. And Islam is the religion of God.” You can take your pick.
9. The authors of much of the Bible are unknown. And of these unknown authors, the men who wrote the gospels likely never even met Jesus considering they were written 40-70 years after his death. A far cry from reliable testimony.
10. The Bible is repeatedly contradictory with itself, reality, and the laws of morality. Couldn’t God inspire a less poorly written book?
11. The Bible is open to interpretation. Everyone interprets it in the way that suits them best or serves their purposes.
12. Throughout history, Christians have justified horrific actions by the Bible and its teaching.
In the Quran, God explicitly talks about the Rabbis who sold the Torah for money, by changing its verses and rulings. Similar actions followed the Bible, and the Council of Nicea details how Christianity inherited the son-of-God cults of the God cults of Greek and Roman mythology. The true scripture of Jesus, has been lost just as the Torah has been largely changed. In some communities at the time of the Prophet, he met Jews and Christians who still had their Scriptures unchanged and many of these same people believed in the Prophet. But the Christianity and Judaism of today are totally different from that of the early days of Islam.
The Quran likens these priests and rabbis like donkeys carrying a load of books on its back! They know little about God and simply use Him. Furthermore, this is a lesson to the Muslims. The Quran curses the men who pray, but pray only to show off how holy they are. In fact, the first person to enter Hell…will be the corrupt religious teachers.
13. The Bible promotes hate and persecution against women, homosexuals and those who worship other gods or no god at all.
As demonstrated by the evangelical actions in present Iraq no?
For Muslims, there is no hate to even sinners. One man would be drunk and keep drinking but the Prophet forbade people to slander them, simply because he loved Allah and His Prophet. Its important to understand also, Islam has a great deal of hatred for a sinful act, but it does not hate on the sinner. Any sort of “punishment” is not to be applied without the consent of the one who made the mistake- that is, Islam cannot force its rulings upon anyone who doesn’t acknowledge its truth.
14. According to the Bible, nearly 70% percent of the people in the world will burn in hell because they don’t believe Jesus was the son of God.
What is the world’s fastest-growing religion? What is the fastest growing religion in the world? What is the overwhelmingly dominant religion of the lands the Bible speaks about now?
Shouldn’t that be a sign? If Christianity is the right religion, why did Islam overtake it, in the land of Christianity’s birth and rise?
15. The only reason I was a Christian was because I was indoctrinated into the religion as a child as a result of the culture and region of the world in which I was born.
In the Quran God says, “There is no compulsion in religion” Furthermore, the Quran encourages humanity to use its mind. No one can deny there is a Creator, but they will deny certain religions. What is logical is to search for the path to the Creator, because if He created you, surely He also created a way for you to Know Him. This emphasis on knowledge and thinking is why Islam has never really had any conflict with science, since many of our greatest religious scholars were also great scientists.
16. Christianity has no more rational or factual foundation than any other religion on earth that I openly reject.
Honesty is important. If you are honest enough to state this reason, I am sure you will be honest enough to accept the truth when you find it.
17. The Christian church is disjointed and can’t even agree with one another.
18. Christians are not at all ethically or morally different from non-Christians.
The message of Jesus, the real message of Jesus, that of the Unity of God, which is also the message of all the Prophets, be they Jewish or Arab, is lost. What you know have is the “idea” of that message…what Christians are holding onto is little more than a shadow.
Much of what Christianity is then, little more than an idealistic message which cannot be really manifested into reality. Christians then are pretty normal people, nothing uniquely Divine. What Islam has is the emulating of the Prophets actions and deeds, since we have detailed account of how he did everything and what he did, so we can make sure we follow a real world example and not one of fables, but rather something that has been verified by historiographers. This is more important than you can imagine because otherwise, religion is nothing but lip service.
A little known documented fact is that most if not all the founding fathers of the United States, had personal copies of the Quran. The idea of the USA being a Christian nation is one espoused by evangelicals, when in reality, these founding fathers used the Quran to help construct the American constitution. Why? Simply because the Quran was revealed to be applied in the real world and to be feasible to the human condition. And unlike the Bible, the Quran has not been changed or edited or modified. Original manuscripts of it still exist and they are exactly the same so it is now, as it was when God first revealed it.
19. Today, powerful church leaders steal, lie and molest young children. The church repeatedly attempts to cover up these atrocities, only to reluctantly apologize as a last resort.
The Quran makes mention of the monks who swore celibacy and tried to observe it, but they failed to do so. And so, this is why Islam has forbidden celibacy.
Yes, many will claim they are waging Jihad, but in reality its little more than their own greed. All Muslims condemn terrorism, whether its Muslims committing it…or the USA.
20. It is absolutely irrational to continue to believe archaic teaching with the amount of knowledge we’ve gained through science and technology. The Bible reads like a book of primitive folklore, not divinely inspired insight into our true reason for existence.
Take a read of the Quran. I suggest the English translation by “Mufti Afzal Hoosen Elias” or “Yusuf Ali”.
You were created to worship God, Who has no partner or equal. And in order to worship Allah, you must come to know Him, because knowing Him is worship. Do look into Sufism and Islam, to at least consider it.
You seem like a reasonable, honest person so I’m sure your not going to take the baby out with the bathwater, by rejecting Islam simply because you reject Christianity or because of some things you saw on television. Be honest with yourself, don’t lie to yourself.
Thanks for putting up with my rant. All the best on your search and may Allah protect you and your family, ameen.
May 30, 2009 at 12:53 pm |
It appears as if you’ve really given a look at some serious objections to Christianity which is excellent. Christianity is bull shit. The term “christian” itself was coined by the Roman Empire and this is when the Church become institutionalized and did some pretty stupid and evil things (also some very good things to be fair like John Wesley abolishing slavery in England).
And you’re wrong about 70% of people going to hell according to the Bible. I think it’s at least 90% if not more according to certain statements Jesus made and even parables (for instance, remember when Jesus said he will tell certain people that thought they had faith, “I never knew you”) This is actually good news for you because it means a lot of people that you are gripping about being immoral are actually impostors. They are not true “Followers of the Way” as Paul describes believers in Acts, but nominal, inauthentic Christians. Those can be some of the worst people (it seemed as if the only people Jesus was not fond were the Pharisees, he showed immense love to everyone else particularly those who felt ashamed of themselves such as women and tax collectors). You see the problem here isn’t Jesus but people. Your post actually is great evidence for the Fall of man which is why we are in need of God to transform us.
I wouldn’t be worried about the 90% or more of people going to hell for this reason: the symbols used in the bible for hell (e.g. fire) are that of (1) Privation, (2) Destruction, and finally (3) Torture. People seem to focus solely on the latter and think of hell literally as a fire that humans are put into which is patently false. (Just like no serious christian thinker believes that Heaven is literally paved with gold.) Now what this means is this: those people who choose to follow Christ and yield to his transforming work to be glorified and made holy, those people will be united with God. Those people who refuse to be united with God will be secluded from God and ultimately their souls will be destroyed. It makes sense. If I created a robot that malfunctioned and refused to let me fix him I would cast him off and/or destroy him completely. It is a clumsy and over-simplified analogy, but you get the point. (Also, people will be saved from “every tribe and nation” meaning those 10 % won’t be defined culturally. You are evidence of someone bucking the trend of socialization!)
About guilt and shame: this is important! This is where the Church has gone wrong, but not totally wrong. Like most of reality, the faith if FULL of interesting paradoxes and people tend to emphasis or put one side of the paradox out of place. (Read the chapter “Paradoxes of Christianity” by Chesterton. One of the most things you’ll read.) A reading of Romans ch. 6-8 is really an exclamation that there is NO shame because “There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ” and why? Because Paul says it is his old self that sins and not the new work of Christ. We are in process of being Glorified. That is our walk. That is the whole point. God turning wretchedness into the glorified creations he meant for us to be.
Now I would Love to comment on everything else, but it would take forever and I doubt you have even read this far. I do have to say that you understanding of the faith is like most people who grew up in a church: a bit elementary. This isn’t an insult to you but to the deplorable job the Church does in educating and also making people feel like going to a building every week is actually an important part of following Jesus. (Yeah right!) People who come to the faith on their own tend to have more of a genuine interest and therefore read a lot of things that deepen their understanding. However, I do not contend that faith is 100% rational. Nor do I idolize Rationalism like our Western culture does (including the Church unfortunately.) I tend to agree a bit more with Kierkegaard on this matter. Certainly there is nothing fair or rational about a God who humbles himself and submits to the pain and torture of men to save those very men. That is a bit crazy. God’s love is prodigal. So much so that he suffers with us.
May 30, 2009 at 12:55 pm |
Your attack on BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY is right on the MARK of what is wrong with the world… I share your sentiment completely… I am an active pacifist who believes as you do that the GOD of ABRAHAM is a FRAUD… The BIBLE is a KINGS document and the FEAR OF GOD is for LUNATICS ONLY… The KINGS WAY OF LIFE has DEHUMANIZED the civilized world… Cause and effect is what all life is about… Humans were not born to have enemies… GOD SAVE THE KINGS WAY OF LIFE:: has become the UNCONDITIONAL WORLD for the INSANE… Humans need to be awakened if we are to be around these next hundred years… life is god:: every child knows exactly what EVIL is, it’s in our DNA… RELIGIONS have taken that away from our consciousness and delivered us too ORIGINAL SIN, the FEAR OF GOD… What RELIGIOUS AMERICA did to the Iraqi people is exactly what we did too the Vietnamese people, to the american indigenous people and black people by UNCONDITIONAL SLAVERY… GOD CHOSE ABRAHAM A WEALTHY SLAVE MASTER, a fact that no one of RELIGIOUS THEOLOGY care to speak about… Cause and it’s effect is exactly what the people of the world are witnessing today… god made all life free and where humans take us well that up too you and me, as you believe so shall it be… The KINGS POLITICAL WORLD is where we are today:: THE POLITICS OF FEAR, the FEAR OF GOD WILL over reason needs to be understood unequivocally if we are too continue as a living species… I am not an ATHEIST again i believe life is god and THE BIBLICAL GOD THE KINGS WORLD WAS DESIGNED FOR RITUALIZED SOLEMNIZED ELITIST:: COWARDLY TRUE DECEIVERS, INTELLECTUALIZED DOGS OF MYTHOLOGY THE POLITICS OF FEAR, the unconditional MASTERS… love hearing from you, peace love and be strong, marvin zalowitz email: mzalowitz@yahoo.com blog: mhz6.wordpress.com lifeisgod.wordpress.com
May 30, 2009 at 12:55 pm |
Thank you for this honest post, BEattitude. Like you, and many of the other commenters, I experienced a similar revelation in my early twenties. Unlike you, I was not born into a strongly Christian family. I converted when I was about fifteen years old and remained radically (perhaps maniacally) involved in the church for over five years. This might not seem like a long time, but it was enough to overwhelm me with guilt–simply for being human. In fact, I still find this feeling hard to shake sometimes.
Ignore those who insist that you never were a believer, for “a true believer would never leave”. First, they know nothing about your once-faith. Second, the argument that a true Christian would never leave the church is simply a convenient catch-all method for condemning anyone who begins to open his or her mind and question the church doctrine.
May 30, 2009 at 1:01 pm |
(Happy to those who ask question??irrational!!-question are for those who unsatisfied=unhappy)
Old man,questioning the existances of God is like questioning your existance in this life. If you want to life with you are the center of your world (note :you=your own brain can reach+your maximal effort), so be it(pity..). The sad thing is, you put all blame of that unsatisfied or unanswer question on Christianity (which you are -like you said-Christian by born not choise). You never be a Christian, don’t you ever said you was..
I answer this from my logical intellectuality. What yours said?
You are now enjoy questioning everything and having answer of everything too.. Keep it old man.. trying to be Albert Einstein, huh?? stop blaming religion, do some usefull research and invent something!
May 30, 2009 at 1:02 pm |
Check out my blog on this blog… http://jbleon.wordpress.com/2009/05/30/losing-my-religion/
May 30, 2009 at 1:02 pm |
[...] My Religion? I read this post today and it alarmed me. The title: Losing My Religion. Why I Recently Walked Away from [...]
May 30, 2009 at 1:03 pm |
Good article, but I think it’s lacking one of the main reasons that the existence of God is a little silly. Well, two reasons. These may have been mentioned already, but I don’t have enough time to read the small novel that is your comments. One reason: when one says they don’t believe god exists, they’re always asked to prove he doesn’t. But strangely (or maybe not), this is one of the only times anybody is asked to prove a negative. If somebody were to say that the world was filled with invisible, shape shifting monkeys that we couldn’t feel, people would think he was mad. One would ask him to prove it, or give a reason. What if his reason was: Prove that the world isn’t filled with invisible monkeys. That seems like the easy way out, or a silly or cheap reason. Because we can’t prove it. The other reason is, I think, a major inhibitor of people’s development. Organized religion, almost always, requires you to thank god when you do something good, the reasoning being that god gave you the talent or the means or the intelligence to do it. But if you do something wrong, it’s because god gave you free will and you’re abusing it. You can see what this would to to a person’s confidence. The only things you have really done in your life, all by yourself, are the bad things. You ought to be ashamed. This is a major argument for me against an all powerful god. It should be known that these are not my ideas, just a paraphrasing or variations of those of objectivism, a school of thought founded by the novelist Ayn Rand. She’s very good, I would highly recommend looking her up on youtube and listening to an interview, or reading some of her books (my favorite- the fountainhead). Anyways, if you have a follow up comment, I’d like to hear it.
May 30, 2009 at 1:03 pm |
Christians: Have you ever considered that maybe you’re actually in hell right now? Remember all that suffering and fire they talk about in hell? Notice how you have to keep justifying all the evil in the world?
Atheists: Laugh as they flounder with this question. [Yes yes, burden of proof but they do the same thing all the time, though not in jest]
Beattitude, I’m glad to see you have freed yourself from the bonds of irrationality and subservience. Enjoy your new found position as a free, moral man.
May 30, 2009 at 1:06 pm |
@ Marvin : The lunaticest thing is YOU, because YOU STILL BUSY TALKING ABOUT THINGS YOU SAID LUNATIC..
May 30, 2009 at 1:07 pm |
Great post because it was well thought out. What I find distracting is when believers reply they make no effort to see your point of view. It is almost impossible to speak to believers about the hateful rhetoric their faith teaches because they don’t seem to get it – they think it is just the teachings and can’t seem to grasp the emotions it invokes.
May 30, 2009 at 1:13 pm |
They are always the reason why christianity is fake.
May 30, 2009 at 1:08 pm |
For too long a time I said God existed but that if I left God alone God would hopefully leave me alone. Even now I write this I am not the most perfect of followers. I too find it a massive problem with practitioners who interpret religion as being fear based. That if you want to be considered a good practitioner you will be scared. And I just turned away. But eventually you find your own answers and it wont come from doing a critique on every religion of the world, but from finding what works from you and how your understanding develops. because if God was petty, if God was the stereotypical kid with the magnifying glass and we the ants, do you think that god would have destroyed us generations ago.
Find peace in your choice, we all feel like we’re drowning sometimes, dont let anyone tell you how to stay afloat.
The organ harvester
May 30, 2009 at 1:09 pm |
Your theology is bad, awful, not your God – that bring you away from your God who is love.
May 30, 2009 at 1:11 pm |
You have a lot of courage and I really admire you putting this out there. The believers out there tend to go insane on anyone who might simply not agree with them. They spend a lot of their energy pleading persecution but then viciously attack anyone who publicly identifies as an atheist. I grew up strict Catholic, my parish had a pedophile. Our neighboring parish had a pedophile, I am beginning to believe that every parish had a pedophile. I consider myself Agnostic and the factors that put me here have a lot to do with your reasons 14, 15, and 19. More people need to come forward and declare that we are buying into these corrupt institutions anymore. There are more of us out there than people realize.
May 30, 2009 at 1:23 pm |
You sound really angry Mr. BEattitude. I’m sorry you don’t understand God the way some of us do. If it wasn’t for Jesus Christ and his love for me I wouldn’t be alive today. I suffered through depression and Jesus was my only saving grace. I’m sure there are a ton of you out there that would love to pounce on my statement and find a gazillion things wrong with it and go ahead. It’s just sad that y’all don’t understand.
Peace be with you, in whatever form works for you.
May 30, 2009 at 1:41 pm |
The only person I was angry at was myself for blindly believing it for so long.
If your faith helped you through depression, that is a good thing. My goal is not to de-convert you from your faith. Christianity was such a core part of who I was for so long. I started this blog to have open discussion about the things that lead to my rejection of that faith.
May 30, 2009 at 1:53 pm |
The reason you see BEattitude’s anger at “God” lies in your perception. I don’t if you have overcome your depression, but if you at least understand where he is coming from, you might say otherwise.
May 30, 2009 at 1:54 pm |
People whom do not fully believe in themselves even when believing in a “GOD” tend to be the first ones to pass judgment on others.
as my mother always said:
Dont judge others till you have walked a mile in their shoes
She also said Ignorance is bliss
May 30, 2009 at 1:26 pm |
Sorry, beattitude, you just don’t understand the most basc facts about Christianity.
May 31, 2009 at 2:16 am |
Perhaps YOU don’t.
May 30, 2009 at 1:28 pm |
Dear BEattitude,
I can not agree more.
May 30, 2009 at 1:29 pm |
Dear BEattitude,
I could not agree more.
May 30, 2009 at 1:30 pm |
What I find interesting is the anger that the topic of religion brings out in people. If you believe or don’t believe, why is everyone attacking each other. Why does it matter?
May 31, 2009 at 1:13 pm |
Well, yeah, it does. Evangelists are trying to control other people in very physical and personal ways.
May 30, 2009 at 1:30 pm |
BEattitude,
You might enjoy this little poem I wrote: http://kbedlion.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/disillusionmentin-his-name/
May 30, 2009 at 1:31 pm |
[...] Fra the BeAttitude [...]
May 30, 2009 at 1:34 pm |
i’m a christian and have lived happily as one for the past 30 years.
i don’t go around disrespecting non believers.i believe we in america have the right to believe and worship how we want to(as according to the constitution)so the only thing that bothers me is when people attack me personally for my belief the very minute they find that i’m a christian.
**************
part of america’s problem today is that most people in society don’t have tolerance for anyone that has a differing opinion..
example:it used to be okay to vote for who you want in a political election,without being assaulted and insulted for it.
it used to be okay to worship how you wanted,whether you were christian,jew,catholic,christian,whatever.even people who had no belief in a creator were tolerated.
nowdays just the slightest difference of opinion with others gets you nothing but insults or worse.
try saying “i’m a republican” anywhere in public and just wait for a few minutes if even THAT long..the same with being a christian.
let me explain that the prophecies in revelation regarding the middle east are more than just coming into play..it’s coming into motion the precise way that the book claims it will in these latter days before the accension into heaven(no,the word rapture isn’t in the bible..it should have been called the accension to make it easier understood and to make it less of an issue with people wanting to argue that the word rapture isn’t in the bible).
anyway…i’ve never felt that guilt that the author here has said he felt.it sounds like maybe he was following legalism(religion) instead of christianity.there’s a difference.legalism is that teaching that christians will miss the rapture(miss heaven) based on the kind of movies or music they listen to.as if watching bruce willis movies all the time or listening to AC/DC or metallica everyday is going to keep someone out of heaven…NOT!!!
that’s called leaglsim.one only sacrifices sin(10 commandments are clear about that)and whatever else one gives up is whatever god instructs one as an individual to sacrifice or leave behind.i’ve been a christian for a long time..i still watch horror movies and i listen to the music i grew up with…rock..like aerosmith,etc..god never instructed me to leave them.besides..he takes the interest from you.he doesn’t make you give it up leaving you to miss it horribally and fall into a depressed state.that old nonsense that you have to give that stuff up and afterward” absence of that item in your life=an ensuing trial that you have to overcome by faith” is absurd.some christians just didn’t study their bible.
the bible isn’t contradictory.the bible encompasses many different social changes in that so many years are documented..i don’t watch most of the tv evangelists..most people can probably understand why.but i haven’t given up my christian walk.i disagree with alot of things my own minister says.but i know the bible well enough to be able to form an opinion although it differs from his..and above all,the fundamental belief in christ,etc,is still there.what turns MOST people away from christianity is the legalism.if the church would shut up about the media and how bad a christian is for going to the theatre on friday night and watching tom hanks in the davinci code 2 ,yada yada yada,christians would be alot better off.(btw,i plan to see that movie soon).i have a daily prayer life and interaction with god.inbetween i often watch HBO..shame on me.i’m a christian..supposed to be perfect..ohhh..forgive me lord i didn’t mean to watch “DEXTER”..HEY…that comes from being taught legalism..religion..not christianity.well..i gotta go..judge judy just started.
May 30, 2009 at 1:38 pm |
I would like to test that I can comment, so sorry about this one.
May 30, 2009 at 1:38 pm |
I completely agree with the things mentioned on your list.
May 30, 2009 at 1:39 pm |
I enjoyed reading your post. I feel it is well written and thought out. I particularly respect your obvious efforts to explain your views without being grossly disrespectful to others. I find it admirable and mature that you have chosen to share in this way.
I don’t follow organized religion but firmly respect the rights of others who do. If what you believe in does not cause emotional, psychological or physical harm to yourself and others then who am I to judge? It angers me that a few guest posters like myself have resorted to flinging insults at each other just because you don’t agree on something.
Looking forward to see what other interesting topics you post about in future.
May 30, 2009 at 1:42 pm |
Dear BeAttitude,
I respect you for being willing to express in public a decision that you no doubt thought long and hard about before making. It’s not easy to sort out who we are and what the world means to us when we’ve just had everything turned upside down. It’s not “simple” or “taking the easy way out” by any means.
I’m Christian myself, no longer an evangelical, though, and leaving the evangelical perspective in which I grew up was one of the hardest decisions of my life. I spent several years answering, “I don’t know,” when people asked me what I believed. It has only been in the last six months as I’ve come to grips with the fact that the voices of people who use religion as a tool for hatred or intolerance don’t have to be the ONLY voices that I’ve felt comfortable calling myself a Christian again.
I study religion, and that experience has taught me to respect all faiths and recognize the limits of human beings in expressing it. I see the Bible as a narrative expression–even a legend–of spirituality and it is only one limited, human perspective on the meaning our lives may take. None of us can claim to know everything about this world, or even one another. It takes a lot of guts to abandon a world-view that makes you feel safe at the expense of burdening you with guilt for not being able to live up to it.
Some people tell me these beliefs don’t make me Christian enough. But not everybody. There are plenty of other Christians in this world who disagree with the rigid, unaccepting version of Christianity that permeates our society. We just need a few people to be willing to speak up for it.
Kind regards, and, again, best wishes.
Cass
May 30, 2009 at 1:47 pm |
BTW,to add to my above comment..or below..or wherever it is..
the bible claims that in these latter days that the world..meaning like most of it..will hate christians (his followers)for his namesake..this has come to pass.
but i wish others here would read my post.it answers much of what they went through…legalism vs christianity.one poster used the term american christianity or something similar.christianity isn’t being taught as much as legalism is being taught.
when being taught that god’s displeased with you if u watch an R movie and being told you sure don’t wanna be watching it when christ comes again,then you’re you’re being taught legalism.
legalism is a doctrine that WILL LITERALLY ruin your life.
May 30, 2009 at 1:48 pm |
I grew up with no religion, my mother and her side were Mormons, my father and his side were Irish Catholic. My ex was Catholic, my children (for my ex mother in law) are catholic. My daughter likes Christianity. I am 4 months now a convert to Islam. I never believed in a God, or a God, I don’t prefer the Catholic religion, I don’t prefer Christianity, did I prefer Islam? nope, not in the least. I was so scientific in my thinking that there is no way in “hell” there could be a formative God. I used to tell people I believed in me. And whatever was after this life, was where I was going, good or bad.
My decision to convert was something that came up and literally bit me in the butt. But I am happy. Do I want my kids to convert, nope. Ive always told my children to find what they think they can believe in, if its nothing, then so be it. I wont judge them, but they have to do what makes them happy inside. they are the ones whom must believe in themselves and believe whole heartily in what they want. If when I die I have a houseful of Jewish, baptist, Scientology, Christians. Then so be it. Kudos to you theBEattitude, for finding what ever it is/was that makes you prosperous as a human, and if its nothing, then I am happy you found your peace within.
May 30, 2009 at 1:50 pm |
Sir, you have replaced worshiping Jesus Christ to yourself. You have only switched gods.
The weight of guilt, unworthiness and fear of god’s judgement. I continue to spend my days striving to be a good husband, father and son. I help others in need around me as often as I can. The big difference is I do these things today because it brings me joy, not because I believe it brings an imaginary god joy.
You were never really a Christian because you don’t embrace, defend, not properly understand the nature of God as revealed in Scripture. Your answers profoundly demonstrate this.
A true Christians feels the less guilt for their sins (unless you’re Catholic), because they are fully paid for in Jesus Christ, not hypothetically. Now you want to be a moralist. What worldview do you now have which consitently says that morality is a reality apart from God? I’d like to know because there’s never been a sufficient answer.
1. God is wrathful, jealous, hateful, and kills nations of people like it is a bodily function. He is certainly not just or “holy” in nature.
No, it is precisely because God is holy and is eternally loving to Himself why “justice” exists whatsoever.
2. The act of throwing people into infinite torture and punishment for not believing a Jewish guy from 2,000 years ago was God’s son, or unknowingly worshiping the wrong god, is extremely cruel and sadistic.
The statements, “God works in mysterious ways,” or “It will all make sense in heaven,” are little more than irrational cop outs. This God allows horrible atrocities to be committed against innocent men, women and children every day.
God punishes people for being lawless. And denying Christ’s claims to be the way the truth and the life is calling God and Christ a liar. This is lawlessness (sin). Rom 3 says that NO ONE is inoccent. Again, you were never really a Christian because you fail to even accurately represent Christianity.
3. Bloody animal and human sacrifices are illogical demands by a divine god as payment for petty wrong doings. These actions are no different than the rituals of archaic pagan religions. Not to mention the bizarre ritual of symbolically drinking human blood and eating human flesh.
According to who’s logic? You need God to exist before you can even have a foundation of logic. You would be borrowing what only He can supply to use against Him.
If God loves us and wants us to know and believe in him, why be so completely invisible? What is the purpose of being so illusive to those who believe and worship him?
The ultimate proof of God’s existence is that without Him you can’t prove anything. Secondly, God reveals Himself in creation and specially reveals Himself through Scripture, the gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit. You have never seen your belief, yet you believe you have belief. You don’t even live according to the standard you demand of God. This type of behavior fulfills Rom 1:18-20 and 8:6-8.
I wont even get into the rest of you strawmen arguments.
May 30, 2009 at 1:57 pm |
I worship myself as a god? Do I need to grow a beard?
Not believing in the god of Christianity does not make a person self-centered. I strive to live selflessly everyday for the sake of those close to me and those in need of my help. I worship no one.
May 30, 2009 at 1:58 pm |
How come your comments are not stawmen arguments and his are?
Because you feel you are right and he is wrong?
Who made you God? *smiles*
May 30, 2009 at 6:03 pm |
His are strawmen because he’s misrepresenting the nature of God and man as clearly and plainly revealed in Scripture. I am only right if Scripture is right. His answers can’t even consistently be accounted for if the God of Scripture were not alive. God is the precondition for truth because He is truth personified. That’s what Jesus said.
If he were truley a Christian then he would know Christianity 101 and most of his questions and statements would be answered. In fact the answers to most of his remarks have been on the books by apologists for a long time. Doesn’t sound like he cares though.
Lastly, he’s not abandoning Christianity I assure you of that. He’s abandoning his own jacked up pre-concieved views of Christianity.
May 30, 2009 at 2:02 pm |
This is exactly why Xtians will never be (nor any religion) the “light” of the world – condemnation, condescending, & non-community have become their downfall. pure rhetoric & no love!
May 30, 2009 at 6:06 pm |
That’s not what Scripture says. Christ will return and kill all the lawless bad guys (becasue they ruin the true fellowship), gather His redeemed, and fellowship in community with them for eternity.
June 1, 2009 at 12:49 am
Sounds awesome. Just one thing, though. When did Jesus start taking his cues from Jack Bauer?
May 30, 2009 at 1:55 pm |
to littlemissangrygirl–i never verbally assaulted anyone who is a non believer. i’ve never heard aethiests get attacked in public for not believing,but i’ve seen and heard christians get attacked plenty the very instant that someone realises their christian. myself included while i was simply talking to a waitress ina restaurant,..2 customers started in on me..
“you say you’re a christian,right???”
“yeah”
“well..tell me this>>>>”
at this point of course they began to attempt to belittle me and my belief.
i don’t waste my time with people like this just as non believers shouldn’t waste their time with pushy loudmouth christians.
neither side should be attacking the other!!!
May 30, 2009 at 2:08 pm |
“i’ve never heard aethiests get attacked in public for not believing”
You’re not paying attention then. No offense, but maybe you have to be on the receiving end of it to really know how often it happens.
One public example:
“was it all inclusive to acknowledge non-believers in his inaugural address, or just offensive?” Excuse me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twoXZE9U0Io
Then Huckabee whips out his snark with his suggestion that atheists believe only “in themselves”. Pretty ignorant and a parochial example of something truly offensive. How is it possible to go that far in life and be that stupid. And if he’s not, how sick is it that he thinks the people who listen to him are that stupid?
Watchers of Fox News are being trained to be offended by the mention of atheists, even if it just acknowledges their existence, even when they are not addressed by their common label.
Show me a show that asks the audience “were you offended that ____ mentioned that there are ANY Christians in America?” and then you’ll have an argument.
May 30, 2009 at 1:59 pm |
This is an amazing post. Honestly, I’m not sure if there is a God. Though I guess it is comforting to some people to believe someone is “out there”. If there is a God, I certainly don’t believe he is the same as this “God”. There are cruel things going on in this world and some things “God” doesn’t seem to be helping. Anyway, again great post. I usually tend to stay away from anything relating to religion.
May 30, 2009 at 2:02 pm |
check out my blog post. It has to go with this post and i would love some feedback… http://jbleon.wordpress.com
May 30, 2009 at 2:03 pm |
I respect for you experiencing a religion into your adult life and denying it. In the constant struggle between Theism and Atheism, it’s people like you that truly indicate whichever side is best for the world.
I hope you continue to do good things for yourself and those around you, not to appease a god that has betrayed you.
May 30, 2009 at 2:04 pm |
Wow! What a powerful entry and what a way to get people talking. I too was a devout “christian”, even to the point of being an ordained minister. But like you the questions kept building and the answers were not what you expect. Personally my view is now this…We all come from one Creator, no matter how you decide to acknowledge them or worship. The problem is not faith but plainly religions based on mankinds religious doctrines. If people TRULY want to make a connection with the divine then ASK QUESTIONS, RESEARCH, and believe what is in your heart and not what a sheepherding pastor TELLS you is right. All of us, everything around us, was all designed by the Creator to live in harmony, not to subdue it and hold it as slaves. This includes our fellow man as well as the Earth that sustains us everday.
May 30, 2009 at 2:05 pm |
Hi beattitude. It seems you may still believe in God, as you’ve felt His presence for most of your life. It’s just that the image the Bible depicts doesn’t seem to be right. I believe you are right in saying that faith is belief in the unseen, though it still requires some kind of foundation. The best advice I can give you is that you should read a different book; a book which lays down a firm foundation; a book that tells its reader right at the beginning, “This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). Who believe in the unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them…”
This book is none other than the Qur’an. I know you might be thinking, “no way!” But just give it a try. There’s no harm in trying.
Your 20 points are easily answered in Islam. God is just; eternal punishment and worldly suffering has an explanation; prophecies have been clearly fulfilled; the author of the Qur’an is God Himself, and it’s been rigorously preserved such that there’s no doubt regarding it; it’s free from contradictions… the list goes on. Islam is a religion for all people of all cultures, not just those born into it. It’s a universal message that everyone can understand.
You can try the following links for a free Qur’an. Don’t give up on your search for the truth!
Freequran@islamway.net
http://www.idci.co.uk/category.php?id=212
Regards.
May 30, 2009 at 2:05 pm |
Thank you for sharing this. I have been in the process of shedding my Christian skin. It’s been two decades of painful struggle and is probably the most difficult thing I’ve wrestled with.
Ever since I was 8 years old and reluctantly got baptized (more as an insurance policy than anything else), I’ve had the instinct in me to reject it. It never felt right. I was told this rebellious streak was the devil in me. When I had questions or expressed how very small my faith was, I did not ever get understanding or compassion from the church.
A Christian who struggles with faith is treated as if they have leprosy – as if they’d catch it from me. No one attempted more than the typical platitudes or scare tactics in response.
I could never force myself to believe – and if there is a God, I have a hard time believing I will be punished for my lack of faith. It is God that made me, after all. I did not choose to lack faith.
I consider myself agnostic at this point but I’m still haunted by the trauma done to me by numerous Sunday School teachers. I still wake up in the middle of the night, wondering if I’ll be sent to a fiery hell to burn for eternity.
I never worshiped God out of love, but out of fear. I can’t live like that any longer.
My husband has always been a casual Catholic, while I was raised in the Baptist church (enough said.) … We have 2 children together and I’ve wrestled over what to teach them. I used to bring them to a non-denominational church, but when they started acting like Baptists, I got the hell out of there, (no pun intended!) … Now we go to mass at the Catholic church, though quite infrequently. (You would think they’re stricter being “THEE” church – but they’re not at all. No fire and brimstone and no sermons on tithing. I can deal with that.)
My children believe there is a God but I constantly let them know that there are many religions and that they’re free to explore them without fear of judgment. I tell them that no one knows the answers to religious questions for sure – even if they pretend they do. I wish my parents had raised me like that….. and I hope I’m doing the right thing.
May 30, 2009 at 2:07 pm |
I wanted to leave a comment but wow!! As I read your twenty reasons I got a real sense of anger in your tone. Which leads me to believe that you have been hurt by the church or those claiming to be christian. I could be wrong but but such a tone is a good indicator. I’ve been there and went through several years of ignoring God. If you want to hear my story I’d be happy to share…
May 30, 2009 at 2:15 pm |
I was a member of a wonderful church, and all Christians in my life are beautiful loving people. I have given up my faith for head reasons, not heart reasons. The Bible is flawed and the church is equally as flawed. It just doesn’t add up to a foundation for faith in something real.
May 30, 2009 at 4:51 pm |
Be,
I am happy you gave up on man made religion. Now you are free to believe in the One true God that made you….it’s great to be free..
May 30, 2009 at 2:09 pm |
A congratulations of some sort is in order, good for you for casting off the repression that is modern Christianity, hopefully youll see things in a whole new light, im not one to push religion on anyone but perhaps you should look into the Tao Te Ching or Zen Buddhist teachings to see how people “worship” the divine that is the universe instead of a made up scary “god”.
Good luck, and may you find what you seek in whatever you do.
May 30, 2009 at 2:10 pm |
I believe the lord always is and shall be the most insane greatest, himpan hampan to believe the flops. I love integrated science and loving laughter just as much as the next guy, but to Free France before you get an idea of An America..!
Just for fun…
May 30, 2009 at 2:12 pm |
I meant to say you have to Free France before you get an idea of An America…!
then say,
Just for fun
May 30, 2009 at 2:14 pm |
Have you ever read the book “I don’t have enough Faith to be an Atheist”? yeah I know….try not to roll your eyes. If you like to read…it’s interesting and one of the few most objective books I’ve picked up written by a believer. I know all authors have an agenda….but this one uses science and logic to explain why we should be believe in a Creator and than why we should believe in the Christian faith. It isn’t towards the end of the book that they start using scripture… it’s thought provoking.
I too like many grew up Christian because that is what I was born into. But I’ve since understood the importance of questioning that which has been taught. I’m on my own journey for Truth.
May 30, 2009 at 2:18 pm |
^^^You’ll never find truth
TRUTH IS IMAGINARY
Just as imaginary is God, is truth.
Believe it, and save your life of many failures and upsets. Love life with what you got and mask the illusion, it’s all up to you how you paint it, but you’ll never figure out why, how, or who you paint…
KEEP FLAPPING GOD LOVER
May 30, 2009 at 2:18 pm |
I don’t buy it. Not even a little bit. Your exposition betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity even at its most basic level. If you were a Christian, you either weren’t studying the scriptures or your weren’t paying attention in church.
Your arguments are based on misconceptions about the faith, not upon fact. I’ve seen them time and time again from atheists that 1) don’t understand the fundamentals of faith or Christianity and 2) don’t care to understand.
The arguments against God and Jesus in your 20 points are refutable. Not all of them easily, mind you, but your arguments seem iron-clad to you because you’re beginning with invalid assumptions. I would be more than happy to talk to you more about this.
May 30, 2009 at 2:38 pm |
Wow…you’re certain. Would you check out a post I did to/for my wife who is struggling with these issues as she gets sicker and sicker with stage iv breast cancer? I like to hear from all sides.
Thanks!
http://thirty2nds.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-letter-and-god/
AK
May 30, 2009 at 2:38 pm |
I wonder why you fail to elaborate on why these points are irrefutable. Maybe because all you seek to do is to shake this person’s lack of faith. You won’t succeed. You don’t have anybody fooled but yourself. Many of the points he makes are things I hear from Christian themselves. You will have many Christians who will tell you that the Bible is open to interpretation (some on this comment roll) and you will definitely hear the kind of conversation ender phrases such as “God is beyond comprehension”. And if you have followed recent news, it would be hard to go against the point that was raised about the clergy’s tendency to molest children.
May 30, 2009 at 2:19 pm |
Dear ‘The BE attitude’
Thanks a lot for writing this post. You’re not the only one experiencing that ‘death of faith’
I’m glad to see that rational people are not only those whose parents have told them to be so since they were kids, but also those with a strong religious background.
I see everyday more and more that the bible is no different than ‘The Odyssey’ or ‘The Lord of the Rings’
Books with values and teachings according to the times they are written on and with adapted myths that explain the mysteries of the world we live in.
The Odyssey takes oral tradition of gods and bizarre creatures from the Greek mythology and The Lord of the Rings uses a lot of Scandinavian mythology
Tolkien himself (a strong catholic) said that his literature was an exercise of creating an European mythology
May 30, 2009 at 2:36 pm |
Have you read “A Conversation with God”? I’m reading it right now…I’ll have to read it again. It’s pretty intense…
AK
May 30, 2009 at 3:03 pm |
No I haven’t, but I’ll put it on my list!
Just entering that title on google gives quite a lot of results, who’s author?
May 30, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Neal Donald Walsch.
Would you also check out a thing I wrote to/for my wife who is not doing all that well in her cancer battle? Let me know your thoughts…
Thanks. Let me know how you like the book!
http://thirty2nds.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-letter-and-god/
A
May 30, 2009 at 2:25 pm |
[...] another note, this was a great read today so check it out if you’re Christian or Atheist or Whatever-ian/ist. [...]
May 30, 2009 at 2:28 pm |
All your points are true and there are so many more reasons why not to believe. I myself never was really convinced by the existence of a God, but I did drift in and out of belief and didn’t proclaim myself atheist until I got to University. Believing in God is a comfortable state to be in, but a lot of people can’t bring themselves to eternally be at the mercy of wishful thinking, however less appealing the truth may be. I suspect that many people who have written comments here to defend their Christianity do so mainly to convince themselves rather than to convince you. And there will always be this tendency to rely on the shoulders of others such as priests and the Pope. They are faced with the same questions as all of us, only they are convinced that a higher church authority has the answers to their questions and therefore don’t need to worry about it. They think it’s ok to believe because someone out there understands. But how can you think that priests that molest children (as you mentioned) or a Pope that has made many people cross (even Catholics) has more certainty as regards to God than anyone else? They don’t. They act like they do, but in the end, they act like they’re expected to (except for the child molestation, that has to do with the fact that they’re all sexually repressed).
May 30, 2009 at 2:30 pm |
I found your arguments very sound and similar to my own reasons for turning from organized religion. I was Catholic then converted to Judaism, but still the same troubling issues remained. Spirtituality has nothing to do with dogma and has no need for it.
May 30, 2009 at 2:35 pm |
Amen to this. (Pardon the pun…)
Please check out my own beliefs. I wrote it to my wife who is very sick right now with stage iv cancer and has been struggling with the god thing and the afterlife.
http://thirty2nds.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-letter-and-god/
Thanks. Wow…what a discussion…
AK
May 30, 2009 at 2:30 pm |
Well, I have read with keen interest most of the submissions here but what I would like to say is this: it takes personal encounter to actually know whether there’s one God somewhere or not.
I’ve had to raise questions on why certain prayers I made didn’t receive any attention but I can boldly say that I’ve had to pray for myself and others with instant answers also, I mean real miracles happened without conducting any special crusade(I’m not even a minister of the gospel, just a follower of Christ).
Unanswered prayers among other reasons shouldn’t be a reason to backslide.
If you would just endeavour to be yourself before God, be open and discuss issues with Him without looking for an intermediary, you’ll be surprised what understanding you’ll get.
God’s hands are still open to receive you when you decide to turn to Him again.
I love you but Christ loves you more.
May 30, 2009 at 2:38 pm |
I will say that it has been an interesting discussion.
Thankfully most have represented Christianity well. I haven’t had too many comments warning me of my impending doom and eternal punishment in the fires of hell. I’m always baffled that so many Christians still believe that is an effective form of evangelism.
May 30, 2009 at 2:31 pm |
I’m sure you’ll get a ton of these…I don’t know how someone could read through 300+ quotes…but I’ve been dealing with this issue on behalf of my wife.
She has stage iv breast cancer and is very, very sick as of late. She is struggling with this question from a much different perspective than most of us. Time is not a luxury for her…and I have always been the more spiritual.
I wrote her a simple email to explain how I feel about the god thing…and it seemed to help her. I posted it on my blog. Here’s the link:
http://thirty2nds.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-letter-and-god/
Take care…
AK
May 30, 2009 at 2:57 pm |
My heart goes out to you and your wife. I lost my grandmother and my only aunt to breast cancer. My brother is in remission from thyroid cancer and I’ve lost a grandfather to colon cancer and my other grandmother to lung cancer.
Having people like yourself supporting her will help her find strength as she battles this ugly disease.
May 30, 2009 at 3:51 pm |
I hope so. Thanks for the kind words. It is really f*ckin’ ugly…
May 30, 2009 at 4:07 pm |
Also…if you haven’t already…you should read Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. I just started…I lost my belief in the god I grew up with about a year after diagnosis. I’ve been searching for something ever since…
May 31, 2009 at 1:07 pm |
Oh, Andy, I am so sorry. Give her a hug from all of us.
May 30, 2009 at 2:31 pm |
Here is an amazing book any cathlik (indeed, any christian) needs to read.
It is by the Reverend Alexander Hyslop written in the 1870’s.
The title : The Two Babylons or The catholic church proven to be the worship of Baal.
Obviously the book was banned for a very long time. It is intense and not an easy read. This was written by a scholar who used research to prove his point. It is not hearsay, or hunches, or just having a gripe with a bunch of child molesters. It is based in fact.
As to your walking away from christianity, well done. The feeling of freedom will grow continuously and the shackles will fall of in degrees. It takes a while but is worth the wait.
May 30, 2009 at 2:32 pm |
Hey BEattitude,
First, I would like to state the following. These are my personal opinions, everything comes from the individual that is wrapped up in belief, concept, what is right and wrong, etc. and should not be considered from that point of view that its the end all be all.
I’ve realized that this is ignorance on the individual, to think that MY thinking is the right thinking or anyone elses is the RIGHT way of thinking.
But it makes me happy to see that you’ve taken such a step from conceptual God, that thing in which everyone seems to want to appease. This is definitely not an attack at God, because this bodies belief is that God is not entangled in what is considered good or bad or any one concept over another that He merely encompasses all. With that being said He is the constant.
He is not just one emotion, which people commonly denote him as being love, because the humans definition of love is distorted, think about it, our version of love is, “okay i will show you this good feeling as long as you’re giving ME something, and when you withhold this, i will withhold it as well from you unless you meet my expectations again.” This is not the Love God is nor can i say what He is exactly, no one can, if you can then you’re in trouble. It is not something you can explain in terms of the mind and the intellect but something that goes beyond it, unborn and timeless (again these are only words to explain something ineffable)
I enjoyed you post very much and part of the dialogue i did read (sorry i skipped alot of it, as it was way too long of a discuss, it seems i was late lol)
most of the conversation reminds me of a parable I put on my blog a while back of the Monkey Salvation for the Fish
In a nutshell:
The disciple says to the monkey,
“What on earth are you doing?”
As the monkey scooped the fish out of the river
and placed it on a branch in a tree
the reply was,”I’m saving the fish from drowning.”
**
The ego feels that its path is the right path so it would be in all of our irrationality to try and point another in the “right” direction, but who’s to say you’re going in the right direction as well, you can only trust that feeling you have that inner feeling that just can’t be explained.
The best way i can explain God is that He IS. He is not the label and he is not an emotion, he is not a belief, he is not a religion, he is not what you perceive him to be. This also comes down to the individual though as well, that if we are all encompassed in the Absolute, something that is always constant, then low and behold, we are much closer then we think to the Absolute, because we share these same qualities. How can we possibly be the body? Something at which is never the same, always changing, the cells in the body are swapped out completely every 7 years? We go beyond that, that there is this ‘emptiness’ that is there yet it encompasses everything that is.
A lot of atrocity really has nothing to do with Gods action or inaction, it comes from the humans lack of understanding or ignorance, not being clear sighted. We allow our bias to get in the way of things, and therefore we become selfish and greedy. I once ready from Anthony De Mello that,
“If you’re suffering, then you are not in touch with Reality.”
All in all, thanks for posting your struggles, and your reason, keep at it, some of the most valued philosophers talked of the necessity of the conceptual God die within in order to find God.
May 30, 2009 at 2:39 pm |
[...] is from the blog, http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/. Great Post. Check it out. For those wondering, here is a condensed “Top 20 List” of the [...]
May 30, 2009 at 2:41 pm |
[...] Dagens mest hetawordpressblogg på engelska är denna; http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/ [...]
May 30, 2009 at 2:44 pm |
BEattitude,
I know that you are probably getting a lot feedback form this blog …good and bad… but I really hope that you read what I have to say and honestly think about it. =]
I know that I don’t know you but I saw your post on the news feed and I had to read it. I read your blog because I wanted to know why you felt this way. Here’s my feedback: (The quoted things are from your blog.)
“I began to question why the god of the Bible is more believable than all other gods worshiped on earth” and the answer is because God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to hang from a cross for your sins and so that you would not have to be afraid of God’s wrath and so that you don’t have to live in guilt for your day-to-day mess ups. Then three days later he rose again! You cannot honestly tell me that any other god is that mighty! The sacrifice and eternal love of Christ is bigger and better than any statue or monument that other religions worship! Our God breathed the stars and created the world! Our God is merciful and holy! The miracles and things that our God does are unmatched and after seeing something like that it is uncertain to me why you would turn away, but you answer my question in your blog by saying “surprisingly [giving up my faith] was a relief. Not because I wanted to run wild and sin freely, but because I no longer felt the weight a Christian carries. The weight of guilt, unworthiness and fear of god’s judgment.” You are completely missing the point, my friend… Christ is about loving people, loving him and changing the world! It is not at all about obeying the rules and never messing up, that is why God has mercy, forgiveness and unconditional love. If you love God so much that you would do anything for him then obeying the Ten Commandments is not hard at all. God gave us the Ten Commandments not to punish us or torture us, but because he thought that the world might be better if we did not kill each other, or cheat on each other or anything else. You do not have to be scared of God’s wrath if you are living completely for him. It is not about the rules of religion, but rather just loving on God.
May 30, 2009 at 2:44 pm |
truthfully…you can believe want you want too.
christian or not, doesnt mean your a bad or good person.
but, God doesnt have to prove him self to me.
its all a test of faith.
God is holy. its stupid to compare him to humans.
HE is GOD he makes the rules.
but yeah w/e.
i hope you have a happy life [=
15yroldgirl.
-kelly .
May 30, 2009 at 2:45 pm |
If you have any questions then feel free to ask: ashiets@yahoo.com
May 30, 2009 at 2:45 pm |
I am afraid my comment will get lost or not matter among so many comments. It is so wonderful to have the freedom to talk like this. I hope that you will continue to study religion, it is one of the most important and relevent topics in the world today. I also hope you will study science, philosophy, and psychology. It is impossible to learn and know everything, but it is so excited to read about it. It is sooo spiritual. Best wishes on your search… may it never end!
June 1, 2009 at 3:47 am |
Pheew, there’s a ton of good thinking and commentary on this blog post, but your one sentence here struck me: “It is so wonderful to have the freedom to talk like this”. Yes, it definetely is.
We simply can’t appreciate the freedom of speech enough if we haven’t lived in a place and time where it’s strictly prohibited.
It’d be really compelling to blame the organized religions for supression of speech (right word here?), that they really are just a method for controlling humans and that’s their original function, but I won’t do that. It is more integrated in the human behavior: if you have weak self-esteem and you lack understanding of your inner self, you can’t stand objections, different opinions or even straightforward attacks on your view of point. This applies to religious views, but as well to political views, family traditions and all kinds of social activities.
May 30, 2009 at 2:50 pm |
I agree with you. I just want to express an idea I came upon while reading Angels and Demons (which by the way is a terribly written book, but kind of fun and full of interesting little historical references), and that is that all religions are based on what man thinks of god, not of what god may actually be, if he/she/it even exists. I don’t take stock (and i think most people shouldn’t) in what others say about a being or source of energy, etc. that is described as all powerful. Words and thoughts like those dissuade from making people really think about the nature of our existence for themselves. Those are the thoughts which were the origin of all religion. Unfortunately, people normally have a hard time thinking for themselves, and some will incessantly browbeat others until the victims take those thoughts as their own.
This is what I believe: the only truth is the truth that you personally believe in. But, most do not take the time to genuinely contemplate the nature of that belief.
May 30, 2009 at 2:52 pm |
It’s a shame that you have reached the conclusions you have, but you most certainly have the right to do so and then deal with the consequences, if any, at the end of your life.
Much sadder is that you feel the need to convince others to abandon their faith.
It is the fool who has said in his heart, there is no God. But it’s far worse than just foolish to actively try to destroy the faith of others. What do you gain by this? Answer that yourself.
May 30, 2009 at 3:03 pm |
If reading a few blog posts causes people to reject God, there faith was weak to begin with. I’m not looking to de-convert people.
This is simply a place for me to discuss religious topics with people who agree and disagree with me. If I’m wrong, I can’t possibly pose much of a threat to God.
May 30, 2009 at 3:13 pm |
If you’re not looking to de-convert people, you sure attempted to come up with persuasive arguments.
God intentially made everything about himself to be about faith. Your arguments call for humanly logical answers, and faith is not found in logic. Our thoughts are not anything like His thoughts. Nor are His ways anything like our ways.
It’s faith, or nothing. You choose nothing, I choose faith.
May 30, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Martin Luther King, Jr.:
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
May 30, 2009 at 4:33 pm |
It boggles my mind that Christians don’t understand that we free thinkers and nonbelievers like to DISCUSS our lack of belief, the culture of religion that surrounds us, our deconversions, etc. etc.
These discussions are not efforts to destroy the faith of others. They are simply people with things in common communing.
I see commercials and billboards and Christian conversation of faith everywhere. why is it not okay for us to do the same? Communication of commonalities is the most basic of human behaviors.
quick, you sound threatened by our voices.
May 31, 2009 at 12:51 am |
Threatened? Not in any way.
I’m just pointing out that what you’re calling ‘discussing’ sounds a lot like the proselytizing by Christians that you despise. The only difference — you’re trying to get deconverts, not converts.
I understand perfectly well people discussing common interests, and that you nonbelievers like to discuss your non-beliefs, so don’t bother with having your mind boggled.
But why would you discuss your supposed ‘knowledge’ that there is no God to have faith in, or your supposed ‘knowledge’ that there’s no justifiable reason to have faith in God, with persons who may be struggling with the logic/faith issue? Are you doing them a favor?
Humans are spiritual beings, and all seek spiritual answers in one form or another. Why steer seekers away from a God who may indeed exist (for all you know) and recommend them to a place of spiritual emptiness where they don’t have to deal with anything spiritual — like faith, sin, guilt, eternal destiny, reconciling with one’s Creator?
Why take the responsibility upon yourself to direct people to dwell in the realm of disbelief and non-answers — and why take pleasure in possibly contributing to the eternal loss of someone else’s soul, just because you choose to believe they don’t have one?
May 30, 2009 at 2:58 pm |
I’m about to graduate from high school; admittedly, I don’t have the sort of real experience that 33 years of living brings. I wasn’t raised with any particular faith – I joined the Catholic Church when I was 14.
I doubt constantly. I’m assailed by doubt. Much of your reasoning is descriptive of my own thoughts about Faith. I suppose with all these replies you won’t have the opportunity to read mine, but I still wanted to comment.
I imagine that if you make any sort of religious writing, such as the Bible, fundamental to your faith in God – it’s only natural that your faith will be shaken. Consequently, I don’t believe the Bible should be interpreted literally – even if it was meant to be. Genocide, like described in the Old Testament, is indefensible. The Bible is a human writing, rife with cultural bias.
I still describe myself as a Catholic Christian. I take St. Anselm’s motto, “faith seeking understanding”. Some people describe themselves as “spiritual but not religious” – if anything, I’m the opposite. I believe religion can be, and has been, a tool for good and progressive ideas. Fundamentalism, and not religion, is at fault.
When I call myself a Catholic Christian, I do not see myself as an inheritor or defender of such errors as the Crusades or the Inquisition. I recall instead that the Church has produced such Greats as Galileo, Kepler, Da Vinci, Raphael, Mozart, Vivaldi, Gregor Mendel, Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Avila, Therese of Liseux, Mother Teresa, Dorothy Day, ect…
All real people, with real doubts, and real struggles – limping their way towards heaven.
I do not believe that those who are not Christians are damned to hell. Nor is that an orthodox Christian teaching. At its heart, Christianity is a divine love story – and the whole world is weeping incessantly to Christ for its eventual redemption. The world is being saved by love. Heaven is not some remote and distant place – the kingdom of God is within us, and we must all actively work to build the Kingdom of God on earth. Society as a whole must be collectively redeemed by working to effect real change, establish social justice, and provide for the poor, weak, and ostracized among us. That’s what keeps me a Christian.
I think, in the end, it is better to live for heaven – even if there is no heaven to live for. The Christian ideal is enduring.
May 30, 2009 at 3:01 pm |
Agreed anonymous,
There is a moment in which you are tired of all the concepts in which the body has imprisoned itself with and all else drops off, this is a moment in which clarity invades the mind breaking it down and going beyond the mind itself. Something in which the human experiences on his own, not from second hand information gathered.
To takes from others is like trying to turn a fraction into the whole where the relationship is incorrect. You can only take a fraction from a whole but you cannot take a whole from a fraction. The same rings true for Truth. You cannot get Truth from fractions of the Truth. You can directly experience it but you cannot collect other peoples fractions and hope you get a whole.
Btw i meant to re-add in there what Love is, it says clearly in the Bible what it is, so it should be no surprise to you, but it is the Flower in which gives its fragrance unconditionally or the tree that gives its shade to sinner and holy man alike. To the tree, it does not distinguish the two, nor does make the judgement that one is one and one is the other, it just does what its here to do and nothing more and nothing less. Nature has alot of lessons to teach that we as humans have forgotten. Things that we are that we have to re-discover. Not find, finding and discovering are different for we never lacked these qualities, we are just Asleep.
May 30, 2009 at 3:02 pm |
My desire for you and for your family: that you would get to know God for who He is in all that He is: full picture. He is fascinating: i.e. having many facets. Regardless of your mounting evidence as to His character and your wisdom gained by experience as to humanity, God is so much more than you currently perceive Him to be.
You are no longer a believer. Okay. Of course, the “weight” has dropped off your shoulders. Your perception of a relationship with Christ was as a “weight”, whereas Christ said his “burden” is light. Bear with me but I am going to posit that you were not worshiping the God of the Bible. Not for who He really is. It’s like being in a relationship with someone you thought was one way and then whoops they’re not. Who told you the way of Christ was weighty? If you were carrying something weighty perhaps you were never meant to carry it. Christ took on all the weight so we wouldn’t have to. It’s impossible for us on our own to be good, much more to be perfect. If it were, Christ wouldn’t have needed to come and to die for us. We (Christians) are simply called to pursue peace and pursue holiness, to develop and live from a Christ-like mind and leave the rest up to the mercy of God. Christians who suppose that they can live the Christ-life in their own power are mistaken. Your evidence about his church comes down to a matter of God allowing people free will: which incidentally negates the authoritarian character that you have attributed to God. God’s nature is not to make anyone do anything. There are people who have claimed the name of Christ and yet do not do the things that he said (as Jesus said there would be). These are the same people who “have a form of godliness but deny the power” meaning it’s a facade…eventually facades crumble and we find a foundation that was not Christ. Why are you surprised? Christ predicted this.
You’ve decided to be the best person you can be. Good on you (an Australianism) What did he say? Among other things, “Love God with all your heart, love your neighbour as yourself”. It’s clear you don’t love God with all your heart. That’s okay, most of us aren’t there yet. The question is would you like to be able to? See it’s not about where you are, but about where you would like to be i.e. the desire of your heart. Would you be willing to ask God to show you what is so lovable about Him anyway? And what about loving your neighbour (in Biblical terms that encompasses all of humanity) as yourself? Can you see that it would take the love of God to actually love everyone including you: considering the heinous, inconsistent, ungrateful (well you could rattle them off better than I) nature of humanity?
Believe it or not, God appreciates your honesty and does not need defending. He is: whether you believe in Him or not. He’s strong enough to take your rage and your questions and your extreme disappointment and would love to personally engage with you, if you are willing (that person reading by the statue was funny – you should check out what the word says about statues). I am sorry your view of Him has been twisted but, again, He allows you choice. It’s like two siblings who grow up in horrible circumstances: one excels in spite of evidence to the contrary because they value the goal more than the evidence, the other chooses to let their circumstances rule them and chooses to survive rather than to thrive. The choice you’ve made is similar to the following. One of your children wants to become a police officer. All of a sudden the news is filled with evidence of police corruption. Your child says “All police officers are bad, the law is bad and the foundation of our laws are flawed.” Therefore not only will I not become a police officer, I will mount a campaign against police officers and I will live by my own laws.” Interesting, except your child is still still resident in the country, under the care and protection of the police and expected to abide by the laws. Regardless of your belief, God is. You remain one of those He “so loved” and sent Christ to bring back into relationship. Regardless of your stance, you remain one to whom the free gift is available. That is the nature of God.
May 30, 2009 at 3:04 pm |
Hi,
l am a Christian. l have read your post & l will give my response soon.
Have a beautiful weekend!
May 30, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
Hi!
I`m Brazilian and have come from a Protestant family. Me and my family were members of some churches during my childhood and adolescence. During that time, I used to hear things from priests that I could not understand, and God used to be the Guy from sky I prayed to when I was afraid. After some time, that God began to accompany my self-torture when I felt guilty and met the “demons-from-my-wrong-deeds”. It was a shame to be me, because I was naked like Eve.
For the past years, I´ve been thinking, thinking and (re)thinking, and got to meet a different God not from thinking, but from feeling. And as far as I go, trying to understand all the alterations, questioning, and feelings, I sometimes go back to my own personal history and see that the way I think or feel about God is related to my personal experiences with Him – the Guy that was always beside me while I was thinking-thinking-and-(re)thinking about Him.
I do believe in Christ, I do believe in the Bible, and “for to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two” (Philippians 1). And I do believe “all you need is love, love… Love is all you need” (John Lennon).” I believe there´s pain on the pages of the Bible; there are human beings, there´s war, there´s revenge… there´s love. But what one can really tell about God is what they read with their conscience and heart.
“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light” (Matthew 6:22).
May 30, 2009 at 3:06 pm |
A bit late to ask yourself questions on religion at 33.. anyway, your Top 20 seems like a list written by somebody coming from outer space, indoctrinated by a fervent atheist. Too easy, man! Please try harder before dismissing your faith like old clothes.
May 30, 2009 at 3:15 pm |
I guy called “PartyAnimal” is giving me advice on life?
May 31, 2009 at 1:03 pm |
Welcome to the Internet.
May 30, 2009 at 3:40 pm |
I didnt find religion until I was 40, its never to late to do something you believe in
A great many people mistake opinions for thoughts.
Herbert V. Prochnow
May 30, 2009 at 3:06 pm |
First, of all to understand Jesus Christ you need to have the soul of Jesus Christ in your heart.
Second, if you are building your hopes on this life, you will never feel the deep love of Jesus.
Third, from your words I end up to a conclusion you never were a Christian and never will you be.
Fourth, God watch everything and 100% he is watching you, and you are saying clearly you don’t trust him anymore, you are challenging him to interfere in your life, I see it fair enough to teach you a good lesson to feel how much we human are weak without God in our life.
Fifth, unfortunately best ones will fall, rise again from ashes, never complain no matter what, only who they are perfect in their hearts as our lovingly father in haven will hold-on to the end.
A true Christian, his first and big love will be always for God, faith is all about this trust with our creator, always looking &learning from his great love shining/reflecting his deep love between each other as mirrors facing the sun, Jesus Christ deep love is the most pure & special love in all life.
My advise to you is to pray for Jesus from the deep of your heart, & you will feel how much he is close to everyone of us, for me the ceremony of the mount was more then enough to feel the deep love of Jesus revealing for me all what I need to know in this life, wishing you a wonderful life full of his presence, joy and guidance : )
May 30, 2009 at 5:00 pm |
I think it’s great that you really, truly believe in your God and Jesus, and I’m not going to list all of the reasons why I don’t believe to try to make you believe otherwise. Faith isn’t a bad thing to me- if it helps, it helps, and I’m not going to spoil that for you.
But you make it sound like not having faith is like murder.
I think if you really stand for Jesus and his love you should accept this man’s opinion as different- not bad or wrong- accept that he and God have lost any bond they had, and then love him just as Jesus loves him.
-D
May 30, 2009 at 3:09 pm |
All this toggling back and fourth between Christians just vindicates why I believe Religion has, does, and always will corrupt and enslave the hearts of humanity. Please, I implore you all to pick up a copy of The Origin Of Species and at least take some of those idea’s and philosophies into account. Step outside and enjoy the beautiful nature around you. There is much to be happy about, and the cherish than squandering and arguing over who’s “God” is real and who’s isn’t. Too much hypocrasy has come from Religion for me to ever succumb to the bigotry of such.
Thank you for your post BEattitude, I agree with you wholly and completely. I hope you all have a logical awakening and find the comfort, solace, and beauty in seizing the day, for someday you will all eventually die.
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying:
And this same flower that smiles to-day
To-morrow will be dying.
The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he’s a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he’s to setting.
That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former.
Then be not coy, but use your time,
And while ye may, go marry:
For having lost but once your prime,
You may for ever tarry.
-Robert Herrick
May 30, 2009 at 3:11 pm |
I believed for a long time because after a childhood of it, I was reluctant to let go- much like you. But ofter watching my sweet mother – who never wanted anything more but to bake cookies, watch soccer games and sing in the choir- die a slow, torturous death over 30 years, I could not bear the platitudes anymore. (Add to that the religious people who insist that she not be allowed to end her life willfully, because apparently God wants people to experience his full helping of suffering. And in their ignorance they think that dying is the worst thing that can happen to you. Which is ironic.)
Then there were more tragedies piled on, which strangers don’t want to hear all about. But people said things like, “God only sends you what you can handle.” or “He’s testing your faith.” Huh. Really? Well, he wins! if God is so omniscient, why did he overplay his hand? Why would I continue loyalty to an entity that sees fit to repay followers with such cruelty?
I’m not claiming my story is worse than 10.000.000 others. It certainly isn’t. But then isn’t that the sad thing? I have no problem with people who chose to believe. I’m happy if it gives them some peace. But it did not for me and they should leave us alone. We have our reasons not to follow 2000 year old myths. I am much happier being a good person because I believe in THAT.
May 30, 2009 at 3:12 pm |
[...] http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/ [...]
May 30, 2009 at 3:12 pm |
Dear unknown. Considering this might be the 500th comment for this post, I presume you stopped reading already. I just want to say that your conclusions make prefectly sense to me. I came accross the same myself, some time ago. But instead of banning faith of my life, I stopped to consider the Bible word by word. It’s a book, and it’s old. It was written to reach people a (too) long time ago. But that doens’t mean there’s no God, does it? Have you heard of spiritism? It’s also old (1800 something) but much more contemporary than the bible. (the name is awfull but it’s not a sect or anything, it’s the same Christian message, “reloaded”). You wouldn’t speak to a kid the way you speak to an adult. Humanity evoluates. We can know so much more now…
May 30, 2009 at 3:17 pm |
I’m still reading. I’m enjoying the discussion.
May 30, 2009 at 3:13 pm |
Wow, “I respect you with all my head, my heart and my soul.” by Nathan. To have the guts to say all that, after 33 years of being a Christian, reading and studying the Bible. What has just been revealed to us is the fact that you missed the right turn at the junction. The secret of Jesus teachings is in the heart the eyes of the heart and the humble path that must be followed to discover the secret (mystery) of God’s Word. Why would the greatest discovery made available to mankind be so easy with so little effort. It is a personal journey of inner spiritual unfolding which incorporates all other religions seeking the wisdom, connection and true consciousness of the meaning of God.
Why should Buddha, Krishna and Jesus Christ, or any other spiritual path of guidance open up their doors to you, when you through their purpose of being under the bus. Your conception of all the negative things God does, and have done to mankind, is really your personal mental level of perception, spiritual enlighhtenment and experience. I hope you were not trying to impress us, because what are we suppose to do with your negative statements about God/Jesus, when the rest of us have already graduated to a much higher level of spiritual consciousness.
You did not realize that the very thoughts that lead you to the negative statements you made about God, was God’s revelation to you after 33 years of being faithful to Him. You were given the green light to seek the highest Truth beyond all that you have already been taught, seen and experienced, and also you will, ofcourse receive the opportunity to make a choice. Whom do you call when your world suddenly begins to change. When you turn away from God, you relinquish your cloak of daily protection from all that is not in alignment with God, and all permission is granted to the darkside to form a bond/contract with you. Buddha, Krishna and Jesus Christ are all God with different outer forms, leading to the same realization.
The only thing that we have come to realize from this post is that this individual has come so far on the path and then allowed himself to be spiritually victimized by his own illusions. May God continue to bless you! Psalm: # 51
“There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. Mark 7:15″
May 30, 2009 at 3:14 pm |
[...] May 30, 2009 at 9:13 pm (Dreams, Hope, Life, Writing) (Bible, Christianity, Confusion, Faith, God, Hope, Knowledge, Loss of Faith, Love, Power, Rejection, Spirituality, Understanding) I read an article today in which a man explains his relief at rejecting modern Christianity, and som… [...]
May 30, 2009 at 3:14 pm |
Wow.. who is saying people should be tortured and killed if they don’t believe in Jesus? I think you are getting mixed up with Islam…
I’m not religious but your public school education brainwashing is showing now, you know that don’t you?
You are ridiculous.
May 30, 2009 at 3:21 pm |
Is this pointed at me or someone else? I didn’t claim people should be tortured and killed if they don’t believe in Jesus. The Old Testament on the other hand is a different story.
May 30, 2009 at 8:11 pm |
you contradict your own words when you say ” I think you are getting mixed up with Islam”
maybe it is your schooling, public or not that is at fault, maybe take off the blinders and look around.
May 30, 2009 at 3:23 pm |
My question to you is, did you seek a relationship with the Lord, or did you act religiously about it? Because, being a Christian is not about going to church or how many good deeds you do. It’s about having a personal relationship with Jesus and the Father as his son. Yes, as son. Not a slave. a son.
I’ll answer to your list, here.
1: I have been reading the Old Testament, and I can understand why my Lord did wipe out entire nations. First off, the kingdoms wiped out by Joshua were because God gave that land to Abraham as a promise. The people who lived in the Promised Land did not worship the Lord, but worshipped false gods, such as Baal. Other times, the Lord wiped out armies, because they came against His chosen people, the Jews. He sent Israel, then Judah, into exile, because they also turned from Him. However, the promises given to them did not disappear. I’ve read a book that gives the theory that America and Great Britian were the result of the blessings on Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph’s sons. However, there’s a lot to go into about that, so that’s all I will say about it. He is a jealous God, but not the kind of jealousy we think of. He desires a relationship with his creations. We are made in His image for that reason: a relationship.
2: The Lake of Fire in Revelation was not made for men who did not believe in Jesus. It was made for the Devil and his angels. Just as the Lord cast the Devil and the angels who sided with him out of heaven, he will cast out those who also sided with the Devil. I cannot answer what happens to an unbeliever if he dies without ever hearing the Gospel. Knowing my Lord, I believe that that unbeliever will still have a chance to enter the Kingdom, but it may not be immediately after he dies. Then again, I can’t really classify him as an unbeliever if he did not know in the first place.
3: No. This world actually belongs to Satan. When Adam disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree, he passed on his authority of the earth to Satan. Bad things happen to us because of Satan. God, however, has a way of turning it around. Yes, He does allow some trials to happen to us, but two things are certain. One, He does not allows us to bear more than we are able. Two, He allows these trials to strengthen us. Imagine a sword that is being tempered. It is softened by intense heat, allowing it to be forged into a mighty blade.
4: The sacrifices done in the Old Testament were done before His Son was put to death for our sins. The animal that was usually asked was a lamb or a heifer, though there were others. These animals had to be without blemish. When Jesus Himself died for our sins, He Himself was without blemish, yet He took on the punishment that we were supposed to receive. My Lord loves us THAT much.
5: He does not keep Himself invisible to me. He made Himself known to me via testimonies, some of which that I have recorded on my own blog site. Of course, I cannot see Him with my own eyes, but I cannot see nitrogen with my own eyes, either. However, just as we can feel the wind blow, despite that we cannot see it, our spirit can feel Him.
6: No, but He has given some of his sons and daughters the power to perform miracles, as that is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Come to think of it, He does manifest Himself to us, just not in human form. It is the Holy Spirit, God who dwells in his sons and daughters.
7: Incorrect. What I suggest is you keep a record of things you have prayed for. Obviously, most will not be answered immediately. But I guarantee you, they will be answered. I kept a prayer request list, and I have checked off many things since the day I started making that list, which was around a year ago, around this time. Another problem could be that you are looking for your prayers to be answered in a way that you want them to be answered, when the Lord has something better in mind.
8: Incorrect, as well. There are promises that some will not be fulfilled until the end of days, such as when He spoke about the Rapture. “One will be taken, and the other, left.” Also, Mark 9:1. This is a controversial Bible verse, as it speak of those who will see the kingdom of God after it has come with power without first tasting death. Some people did have the privilege of seeing this, such as John. He saw this vision during his exile on the Isle of Patmos.
9: You said “Gospels”, so I’m assuming you are referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I’ll rule out Matthew and John, since those two were part of the original Twelve Apostles. Mark, according to what I have read on earlychristianwritings.com, was a disciple of Peter. Peter may have interpreted his experiences to Mark to record, making it a second-hand account. Luke wrote his gospel, as well as Acts, to Theophilus. According to the same website, Luke used the Gospel of Mark as a base, and then he carefully scrutinized and examined passages, according to Luke 1:3 “it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus.” It is possible that Luke set out toward the places that Jesus visited, according to the gospels, and acted as a journalist, writing down personal accounts and basically “doing his homework”, leading to the Gospel of Luke.
10: The problem with this one, is that no examples were given. One controversial example would be in Genesis, where one person claimed that in Chapter 1, then animals came first, then man, while Chapter 2 said that man came first, then the animals. However, this theory does not hold any water, due to how Genesis 2:19 is presented. “Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens…” This isn’t “Now”, as in right here and right now. This is, “Now, this is what happened earlier.” Note, that the word “Had” is used, being past tense. Of course, one can argue that in verse 21, there is a past tense “So the Lord God caused…” No. This isn’t the same. Where “caused” is a past tense, since the author is writing about what happened in a time before, “had formed” indicates a stronger emphasis on its state of being a past event, meaning that it had already been done before this line came about. In short, it’s a restating of the origin of the animals.
11: Yes and no. Yes, people can get different messages from the same Bible passage. An example: Proverbs 18:21 “Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.” Some people consider this to be having to do with using your speech to either uplift or discourage a person. I apply this to blessings and curses, which, in reality, are synonymous with each other. However, if for some reason, there is a conflict somewhere (I wish you gave me an example so I can help), “if any of us lack wisdom, we should ask God.” (James 1:5)
12: Let’s not forget that Christians are people, too. We all make mistakes. However, there are people who call themselves Christians, but they use the Bible perversely to get their own way. A perfect example would be the Pharisees of Jesus’ time. Matthew 15:1-9 covers this well.
13: This is more like my answer to 12. Also, homosexuality is a perversion of marital union, period. I have not seen any hatred of God towards women in any of the 66 Books. Rahab the prostitute was spared when she hid the spies and allowed them to escape from Jericho. There have been prophetesses, including Deborah, who also happened to be a judge in the Book of Judges. The Lord found favor with Mary, the virgin who gave birth to Jesus. Also, again, the Lord made mankind to have fellowship. He is a jealous God, but not in the way we think of jealousy.
14: Ok, you did not give me a verse reference for this one, either. I assume you meant somewhere in Revelation. In chapter 20, it does not say how many or what fraction of mankind will have their names not found in the Book of Life. So, as far as I know, 70%, according to your statement, means absolutely nothing.
15: Well there’s your problem, right there. You did not seek a relationship with the Lord Jesus, and without that relationship, you fell away. But, if you truly desire to have a relationship with the Lord Jesus, all you have to say is basically this: “Lord, I understand that I am a sinner. I believe that you have died on the cross to save me from sins. Please, come and be my personal Savior.” Well, it doesn’t have to be exactly that, but it does involve confessing that you are a sinner and that you want to be saved. I admit, I was born and raised Catholic, and I did not understand what it meant to have a relationship with my Lord until 2005 or 2006. I do now, and I am thankful each day for that relationship, because He has taught me so many wonderful things and has done so much for me.
16: Again, James 1:5. Just because you do not understand something in the Bible doesn’t mean that it is irrational. I mean, do you expect a kindergartener to have any idea of what a perfect square trinomial is? Same with us. We start out learning the bare essentials, but as we grow, the Lord will reveal to us more and more, things that we, when we started out as Christians, would not be able to comprehend, even to the slightest.
17: Sadly, doctrines are the dividing force when it comes to denominations. God does not see denominations when He sees Christians. It does not matter if you believe this or that about something. The fact of the matter is my response to point 15: recognizing Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I’m actually part of a nondenominational church, so there isn’t any doctrine that will harden my heart from what my Lord calls me to do. I’m not shooting down different denominations, though. I have been to a Pentacostal church and absolutely loved it. I know that the Holy Spirit is moving in that place, because I know that they are not thinking about the doctrines. They go for the Holy Spirit. This particular church’s Feed the Multitudes picnic every July 4th just blows me away at how dedicated they are to serving the Lord.
18: Actually, this statement is false, due to the inclusion of the words “at all”. The big difference is the foundation of those morals: the Bible. Of course, it’s common sense that it is wrong to kill other people. Although I don’t want to go deep into this, I want to say at least two things. The first, we are all made in God’s image. If we are stealing from our neighbor, is it not similar enough as stealing from God? Jesus summed up the Law in two commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. If we follow those two, we follow them all. It’s just that simple.
19: Again, there are people who are like wolves in sheep’s clothing, and it disgusts me as much as it disgusts my Lord. They will be judged for their actions. I must say that the news of molestation broke me and my family from the Catholic church, and the love of money broke us away from the Episcopal church. I once claimed that churches were full of hypocrites. I discovered that that was not so, when I met the congregation of the nondenominational church I see today. There is absolutely nothing like that there. My pastor and his wife are also two of my closest friends, and their love for the Lord is a strong inspiration to me. Oh, something for those who hold a church position who do love money or molest others: Mark 8:42 “‘Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.’” Yes, that is how much my Lord is disgusted at those kinds of people.
20: Do not be deceived. This world is, right now, Satan’s kingdom. He has planted deceivers in high positions to turn us away from the Lord. 1 Timothy 6:20 – “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,” Not everything that is labeled as knowledge is truly such. Satan practices the art of deception, and is quick to cause chaos and confusion at the use of labels.
I hope that as you read this reply, your heart will be open, so that my Lord will speak to you as you read. The day that you do decide to seek a relationship with my Lord, remember, all of heaven rejoices, just like in the parable of the prodigal son.
May 30, 2009 at 3:30 pm |
I’m going to grab some dinner, but I’ll read your comments later.
Just a quick note on the gospels.
The four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are examples of books which did not carry the names of their actual authors. The present names were assigned long after these four books were written. And—in spite of what the Gospel authors say—biblical scholars are now almost unanimously agreed that none of the Gospel authors was either an actual disciple of Jesus or even an eyewitness to his ministry.
May 30, 2009 at 3:41 pm |
The entire post assumes that man is not responsible for any wrongs of the world, instead God is to blame for not giving us a perfect world right now. Does the writer oppose the free will of man? If so, then please be honest enough with yourself and the readers to openly make the case against free will. Is the goal self-glorification or honesty?
May 30, 2009 at 3:42 pm |
I read all of this and believe some of it may be true… but that’s only a little of it. Not all Christians are that way. That’s mostly just people who believe in some of the root religions of Christianity, and I am mainly talking about Catholicism. I was once that religion, and I guess I still am. But I am trying to get over to Lutheranism, which is probably one of the best root religions of Christianity. You told us your were Christian, but you didn’t tell us what root religion (Lutheran, Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, etc.). Which ever one you are, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a better one to change to. I do think you’re right on some of this, but not believing in God or Jesus anymore… I’d find that quite hard to walk away from. Even though I try to be more Lutheran, I always find myself back in a Catholic church. Its not easy to just change religion by demanding yourself.
May 30, 2009 at 3:50 pm |
I am not surprised that your post has generated so many comments. I think that it is because so many people have the same issue when trying to reconcile Christian/Jewish lore vs. physical facts and findings vs. science. I have an unusual belief that is shared by many, altho not voiced. Simply it is this: God is too big and entity to be boxed into a specific description. I think that God (how ever one defines the being which created us) has many forms as surrogate sentinels. To each culture, he speaks in a way that is understood and accepted and pertinent to their lifestyles and cultures. Ex: Those cultures emersed in “nature” (Celts, Japanese, Chinese, American Indians, So. American Indians, etc.) communicate and recieve thru nature or specific “gods” that could be termed “angels” in other cultures. In regard to the concept of our God entity being ‘fair and kind’ he is not…never was…until the evangelicals appeared. Like all natural things, God made us to deal with the good and the bad, thus he gave humans the ability to be good or evil and let us fight out the battles as a lesson. For there to be good, there must be evil, like light and dark – one cannot exist in the absence of the other. Who are we to assume that God cannot deal with his creations in different ways? Religion is of man’s making. Spiritualism is a belief in an entity/energy/power greater than ourselves. I wish you luck in working through your search for answers. What is “hard” is to accept that religion is not a finality, it is but the opinions of a few. Cheers, April
May 30, 2009 at 3:58 pm |
If God is good…then it would not make sense for him to reveal Himself in different ways to different people that fundamentally contradict each other. Then He is a false god!
Every religion fundamentally condtradicts each other, how can they all be right?
May 30, 2009 at 3:52 pm |
You’re description of how you lost your faith is uncannily similar to how I lost my own.
In my opinion we would all come to these conclusions if we used our intrinsic powers of reason and rational thought. The only reason we believe in a God is out of fear, not knowing what awaits us when we die. Not knowing why exactly we are here. So we made up our own reasons. Sure, they’re creative, but complete fantasy.
Great post.
May 30, 2009 at 4:06 pm |
When all is said and done, we come back to the beginning, the origin of the universe and Creation. And one must ask themselves whether it all happened out of random chance or by intelligent design. I personally believe that reason and logic would lead us to conclude that it is all toom complex and intricate to be anything but intelligent. Then we ask ourselves who this great being is that created us and whether He is good? Then we see that He has given us rain to water plants and sunshine to grow them and delicious food to grow from them. And He has given us taste buds to enjoy them. he has given us emotions and minds and freedom. One would most likely conclude that this God is good. Then they would ask how He has revealed Himself to us, then we can look at creation and understand His invisble qualities through what is visible. Such as, this God must be complex because this world is complex. This God must be powerful because it must take massive power to create such things. This God must be Lord above all things because he created these things, and so on. Then we look at Scripture and we see that God has revealed Himself to many people over many years and has chosen to come down and dwell among us. No historian would ever disagree that a man named Jesus existed. Then we ask what Jesus claimed. He claimed to be God and He did things and said things to give reason for us to believe that he is God. And in Scripture we find that they spoke in tongues, prophsied, and performed miracles, and cast out demons…and when one sees these things happen in the here and now…it is really really difficult to logically and honestly deny who God is.
May 30, 2009 at 3:54 pm |
[...] http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/ [...]
May 30, 2009 at 3:54 pm |
I am not going to sit here and read what everybody else commented (You have opened up a can of worms..lol..and hopefully you have gotten some really good answers already)
But I do want to briefly respond to the 20 things you said (of course this is not in depth and thorough but you get the idea)…
BUT, IF you don’t want to read ANY of what I wrote, cause it is long…lol..I’m sorry I tried to keep it short but that’s alright. But ALL I honestly have to say is, if you are really serious about this, then honestly do yourself a favor and read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” by Norman L. Geisler. You will not regret it! I assure you.
1. What is the context of when God is “wrathful, jealous, hateful, and kills nations of people”? How do we understand His wrath, jealousy, and hate…it is very different than that of humans. His emotions are not like our emotions and it is clear that in every act of God He is Kind, and Just, and righteous in doing so. If you actually look at how longsuffering He is and how much time He actually gives for people to repent before He punishes them, then I really do not think that you would make such a statement…
2. This is a good one, I have struggled with this one as well. And it is my personal opinion and understanding of Scripture that God will judge each individual according to what they know. God is ultimately the judge of where someone ends up for eternity. And honestly, do you think it would be just and right for God to allow Hitler into heaven among people like Mother Teresa? I really do not think so. God judges righteously, He knows what He’s doing.
3. God DOES work in mysterious ways and I do believe that things will be more clear once we get to heaven, but that is a cop out. But pay attention to the word you used…He “allows” things to happen. He “allows” horrible atrocities to take place. It is people like you and I who actually make these decisions and make this world a horrible place. it is our free choice that God has given us. It is not God, it is us.
4. Ya, that is kinda weird huh? But it is important to understand the concept. The whole point of these things is that the penalty of sin is death. I believe this is essentially what the sacrificial system portrays and symbolizes. And it is “petty wrong doings” according to YOU, but your standard is flawed. When the standard is perfection, that’s a different story.
5. Invisible? The wonders of the Universe, Him coming into flesh…that’s not good enough for you? If He did show up to you and manifested Himself to you right now, would you even then be satisfied?
“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands” (Psalm 19:1).
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).
6. Maybe not in your life. I mean I do agree that it seems different, but He still does amazing things. Plus, we have the Word of God. We do see signs and wonders, He reveals Himself to people in miraculous ways, there are great healings, God gives people word of knowledge…these things still happen today. Maybe it is not present in your life, but it is definitely there in others. You know, I think of prophets like Elijah and Moses and how blessed they were, and I wonder how the average Joe used to feel when God was so miraculously working through others but not him. What if our average Joe was serving Yahweh wholeheartedly but still saw people like Elijah with greater gifts and abilities than him. Maybe in America it is more difficult to see miracles. But when you go to Kenya and God is their only hope…and a toddler who has no joints in his hips and cannot walk (if you just place him down he cannot do anything because his legs are like jello, and you can feel that he has no hip joints) finally starts walking after you pray for him…you’re view of God and miracles changes a bit, don’t you think? There are stories after stories that I could tell you.
7. Maybe according to you, but thousands and millions of people would disagree with you, including me. There are times that I feel as if my prayers are not important and I wonder how they can effect change, but once I start praying and things start happening, I cannot deny it. Could it be that you are expecting God to respond to you in a certain way and He never does it the way you want? I believe that it was Temple, Sir William who said that “When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don’t, they don’t.”
8. That’s surprising, I’ve never heard that one before…Which ones did He not fulfill? If the predictions He made were about His second coming, of course He has not fulfilled those yet…
9. Actually, most of them are known. Some of the books do not straight up say that this is who is writing, but their writing styles and all of that is taken into account when they have credited a book to be written by a certain author. Most of the New testament is made up of Epistles or letters from apostle Paul, who did not live with Jesus like the others for His life on earth but did have an amazing encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus…I’m certain that you already know the story. But really, if you pay attention to his writings, you will notice that people like Peter (Christ’s disciple) is very present and aware of Paul during Paul’s writings. If Paul was writing false things about Christ, they could have easily disagreed and corrected him. Also, the writings of the gospels and some other books of the New Testament are definitely written by Christ’s disciples and people that were following Christ while He was alive on earth.
And actually, the earliest manuscripts we have of New Testament writings are as early as 30 years after Christ ascended into heaven, and we do not even have the originals. So, who knows how early the originals were written. And even IF the originals were let’s say 40 years after Christ (just for the sake of the arguments), the original 11 disciples (minus Judas cause he died) would still be alive. And let’s go soooo far as to say that NONE of the writings were from the disciples, well they were alive and well, and very present to correct the false things written if there were any…
10. Interesting, definitely not the first time I have heard this, but usually when people give examples it is out of context. So, please give me examples of where it is “repeatedly” contradicting itself, reality, and moral laws…
11. Which is wrong…it is not supposed to be up for interpretation. They have to be read very scientifically actually. One must go through the OICA process when studying the Bible. Observation, Interpretation, Correlation, then Application. It is sooo very important for people to read the Bible in its context, which unfortunately a lot of people do not do. Even preachers find a good message and pick out verses out of context that fit their message, instead of finding messages from the Bible in its context, then finding stories that work with it. It’s ridiculous. And a lot of people go to church to be fed instead of feeding themselves on a regular basis and paying attention to how a Pastor is interpreting texts. The Word of God was first written through an author to his immediate audience, then to us. We have to understand it how they would have understood it. Have good word studies and also to not take a verse and run with it, but to rather look at a whole book and understand what that one verse means in the context of the sentence, the paragraph, and the whole book. This is why people misinterpret Scripture. It’s not right!
12. You are judging Christianity based on some Christians (finite and imperfect people who misused God’s Word and His name). It is not logical to deny God because of what people (who claim to represent Him) do. They choose to do those things, this is not a reflection on Christianity and what God expects Christians to do.
13. I think it is actually Christians who misinterpret the Bible that promote hate towards these people. God hates sin, He never told us to hate people. Where does it say to hate women, homosexuals, and those who worship other gods? Please find me those verses in their proper context and we will discuss it, because I really have not come across any.
14. Again, I believe that God is the one who Ultimately decides on peoples’ eternal dwelling place. And, it’s not just people believing that Jesus is the “Son of God” but for people to understand that this means that Jesus IS “GOD”.
15. Ya, a lot of Christians are raised to believe it and then grow up and drift away because they have never really questioned it and believed it on their own and for their own reasons. I am glad that you are questioning these things. It is so important to question, question, and question some more. I personally was not raised in a Christian home, a good home I guess, but not Christian. I used to be an Atheist and it took me a really long time to study the Scriptures, to learn of other religions and to finally decide that Christ being God makes the most logical sense to me. I would challenge you to keep on challenging what you believed and to keep on reading arguments from both sides.
16. I am just really really curious about whether you have Actually studied other religions in depth, and even Christianity. Have you actually and honestly studied all of Scripture? I do not see how you could say that it is the same. They fundamentally contradict each other. Just some examples, NO other prophet or anyone (like any Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, etc) in any other religion has claimed to be God other than Jesus and none have ever claimed to take away our sins other than Jesus, and none have ever died and rose again and ascended into heaven other than Jesus. These are some Major differences.
17. I do agree that the Church should be more united, but again, some do interpret the Bible differently and some simply put more emphasis on certain things. Like one church may put their main focus and priority in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and others may focus on outreach, raising awareness, and activities. I honestly believe that a lot of it is just preference, and that is not necessarily wrong. This is cheesy but we really are one body with many parts and all of us function in certain ways to fulfill different purposes.
18. Ummm, well if you mean that we sin, most Definitely. We ALL sin. It is unfortunate, and you’re right, that the secular and the “holy” are starting to look a lot the same. But in regards to being ethical or moral according to our standards, it’s definitely different. Christians live according to God’s standards (or at least try to). We also do have the ability to resist temptation because we have the Holy Spirit whereas Non-believers really don’t. They have no hesitation to sin. No remorse or guilt. They have no standard really (kind of because they ultimately know right from wrong), but it doesn’t keep them u at night like it probably would a Christian. We are convicted and turn to God to change. And a lot of us do!
19. Again, you’re mad at God because of people, but that is not really a good or logical reason to turn away from God. Yes, leaders mess up just like everybody else. And I think a lot of times it has to do with the fact that people put them up on a pedestal and they do too, and they are never really honest about their weaknesses. My Pastor was really honest about his weaknesses which is what I admired because we could relate to him much much more and we knew what he needed prayer for, and also we wouldn’t be crushed when our leaders admitted to a sin. Everybody falls, but the impact of the fall depends on how high they are. It is so important for leaders to stay down to earth and real.
20. It seems like you really have a chip on your shoulder. Science and technology are wonderful, but they can really only get you so far. True science goes hand in hand with Scripture. Some Scientific theories though, go against it, such as the evolutionary theory or the big band theory, which I personally believe are very irrational. “Primitive Folklore”, lol that’s funny. I have never heard anyone say that. Definitely, the stories are written in old school style, but they are honestly way ahead of their time. So much depth and truth in every line. I honestly cannot understand how you could think that it is not divinely inspired. It stood the ultimate test of time. It helps me to recall stories and more stories of how kings and leaders throughout history, in attempts to destroy the Bible and Christianity all together, converted in the process. It is divinely inspired. There is poetry, Prose, Metaphors, symbolism, prophecies, wisdom, knowledge that surpasses all things. It takes people their whole lifetime to somewhat grasp the truth and depth and reality of the Scriptures. So many authors over so many years, all with the same message and that all being fulfilled in Christ and working through us NOW, how can you say that!
May 30, 2009 at 3:55 pm |
It is very clear from reading your list of reasons that you never really knew God personally but were merely a religious person who was forced into following the Christian religion.
You could not possibly have come to your conclusions, especially #1. and #15 if you had truly been born again of God’s Spirit.
You see, you simply lived a religious life without God’s love, grace. mercy and Spirit. I am surprised you lasted as long as you did as it is such a hard life to live a good, moral life without the Spirit of God in your life and you have simply helped to prove the fundamentals of Christianity.
You can’t live a holy life without the Spirit of God in your heart and you proved that. Sad to hear you have left the pursuit of God and now will most likely be lost for eternity. A sad ending indeed.
I pray that somehow you would see your need to be TRULY born again of His Spirit and see what a JOY it is to serve the Risen Lord Jesus Christ!
In His love,
Neil
May 30, 2009 at 4:30 pm |
Wow Neil! Your comment is so arrogant and condescending. You must always have to turn yourself sideways? As to fit your ego through a door?
May 30, 2009 at 4:37 pm |
Once again the same excuses:
- you have not known Jesus
- you were following the wrong religion, etc., etc.
Neil
What about rebutting the points adressed in the original post?
May 30, 2009 at 3:56 pm |
You should believe in Jesus; he probably was a real man. However, he’s been thrust forward far past the point any man should be thrust.
I read a book, Pillars of the Earth, and it sang to me… basically all religion tries to control the masses and satisfy themselves both financially and powerfully and sadly it does.
Back then people really believed they’d go to hell and they were scared! Not sure what people today are scared of in the developed world but certainly in the 3rd world they’re still uneducated and scared. How wrong is that!
For me the Bible has always been a great moral lesson. Treat others as you wish to be treated. You don’t need religion or a book to get that message across and for me religion has NO place in modern society AT ALL. The Vatican is nothing more than a corrupt bunch of Robin Hood thieves and the British/Catholic Church are nothing more than kiddie fiddlers.
Sweeping statements you might think… but on the whole, true.
Religion stinks.
May 30, 2009 at 4:11 pm |
Religion = The opiate of the masses….
Ummmm, not really!
You are right that people in religions are corrupt (some, not all) and many have misrepresented Christianity.
But if you really think about it, back then when Christ was alive, there was absolutely No NEED for making up some kind of false stories about God and Jesus being God because the Romans WERE in Control ALREADY. Why would Ceasar want for people to believe that anybody but he was Lord? That doesn’t make any sense.
I really think that it is illogical to say that religion was made to control people, because when these Manuscripts were written there was no need to control..you get what I’m saying?
But I do agree with you on the fact that NOW people use religion to control people, particularly cults and such.
June 1, 2009 at 12:57 pm |
What aspect of that point in history makes you think that control was not necessary? Power struggles did not emerge recently. The oppressed? Trying to take power from the oppressor? Never. I know that seems snarky, but it’s an honest question.
June 2, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Well, no you make a good point. But think deeper about it….
Christianity (well, Christ Himself was claiming to be the Almighty God “Yahweh”, the King of the Jews) Those who followed Judaism before Christ came along were Jewish like His 12 disciples and generally the people in Israel we’re following this One and Only God. And then Christ shwos up on the scene and claims to be this One God incarnate and does things to gain the trust of many hundreds of Jews who are now following Christ.
Now again, the Romans are already in control and if the Jews wanted to get back control, they wouldn’t do it this way. The reason is because the Jews are going against their own ideas that they have always convinced themselves of. (meaning, they expected a royal and political type of Messiah who was going to “RULE” the way that they thoguht of it, but instead He came to befriend the “sinners and outcasts” of society and heal the blind, deaf, and lame.)
So, ok, what my argument is, is that if the Jews wanted power over the Romans, they would not make up this Jesus to go “against” (at least “against” from their understanding of Scriptures) their beliefs. It would seem like a self-defeating purpose. Because this belief in Jesus brought a lot of division amongst the Jews and the now converted Jewish-Christians.
Sometimes my thoguhts are not structured, but I hope you followed that. Do you get what I’m saying?
May 30, 2009 at 3:59 pm |
Oh, by the way… welcome to the real world. And I don’t mean that in a patronising way
May 30, 2009 at 4:12 pm |
what is the real world according to you, I am very curious…
May 30, 2009 at 4:01 pm |
I remember the day when I said out loud that God didn’t exist. I’ve felt like a million bucks ever since. http://www.philtyler.wordpress.com
May 30, 2009 at 4:12 pm |
why? I’m honestly curious, is it because now you feel that you are no longer accountable with your actions to a perfect Being?
Or is it something else?
May 30, 2009 at 4:02 pm |
I gave up my battle with faith a few years ago but only last year could admit it to myself. I call my self agnostic, because I’d like there to be a god. An ultimate arbiter of truth and justice. I’m uneasy about the future and the past. The future: what do I tell my kids(hopefully, I will have some)
The past: what have I done to myself and those around me due to my religious beliefs? How do I make amends. I probably can’t and can only look forward. What’s really sad is my parents didn’t believe they just caved to my grandmothers pressure when I was a kid. What’s sadder I don’t think she really believed, she just wanted to fix the past and couldn’t.
Sociopath doesn’t equal aethist, or agnostic.
May 30, 2009 at 4:16 pm |
That’s really sad and I am sorry that you have never had anyone in your life to really guide you and to give you an example of what a believer really looks like in church and at home.
I really didn’t have that myself…
But I would really encourage you to study the Scriptures…For YOURSELF. Honestly, do yourself that favor and seriously study it. then decide whether you believe it or not.
Another good recommendation that i would give, if you are really serious about it, read this great book called “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” by Norman L. Geisler.
It gives you a really good understanding as to why it takes more faith to be an athiest than it does to believe in God. Great read and you’ll really learn a lot. It will definitely help build up whatever faith you have left (even if it is the size of a mustardseed
) Good Luck bro.
May 30, 2009 at 4:03 pm |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really do appreciate the honesty.
May 30, 2009 at 4:14 pm |
These are all great points. Like a few others who have replied, I came to these conclusions earlier in my life… but I think it says a lot about your open-mindedness that you could come to the same conclusions after building most of your life on blind faith… though I know from experience that a lot of these doubts have probably been building up in your mind over the years.
May 30, 2009 at 4:19 pm |
You know, I honestly think that thats the problem with people these days….their faith is BLIND!
It is so important to stop believing because of what you’ve been raised to believe or what you’re pastor tells you to believe every Sunday, But RATHER for every single person to challenge themselves and to study the Scriptures in its context for real. To really understand it for what it is then to decide.
I’ve been recommending this book to a lot of people, but If you are possibly reconsidering what you believe, I would honestly encourage you to read a book called “i Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” by Norman L. Geisler. You’ll be doing yourself a favor, trust me.
May 30, 2009 at 4:17 pm |
Dearest BeAttitude,
The maturity of our collective souls shine through the darkness best of all when we begin to think for ourselves…The evidence of unenlightened (inmature) souls is the inability to accept or tolerate anything outside of it’s own belief system. Personally, I am a follower of Christ. Simply because after my very own soul searching that’s what works for me. However I’m also a lesbian that is from the south no less. I’ve been told since puberty (i’m almost 43 now) that God cannot love me unless I repent of my sinful ways and of course the old standard…I’m going straight (pardon the pun) to hell. And what I know most of all is this…If such a place exists, like the explanation we’ve been given about hell. The hell any person or religion is planning for me will be the very hell they will find themselves burning in! So therefore I have come to my own personal conclusion that people often use religion as a means to hide their own personal fears and bigotry. And then feel self righteous by doing so! No matter what name you call the Divine i.e. God, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha, Inner Guidance, etc etc…Or in the case of an Atheist or Agnostic…Throughout our individual lives, perhaps we do best, when…”We take what we can use and throw the rest away! The answers too such mysterious questions will never be found all in one place anyways. Life is complicated…
A personal note for everybody that has the notion to get preachy or has been offended because of this particular brave and honest blog by this Young Man. Let me remind you of some of the words the Christ you are so ready to defend (often rather hostile and rudely) say’s…Do not judge! With the same measure you use to judge another, Father God will use the same measure to judge you in return…Also, Jesus said attend to the speck in your very own eye before you attempt to remove the speck from your neighbor’s eye! Jesus was ever gracious enough to say Love your brothers and sisters (as in human beings) as I have loved you. Oh Yes, the Divine Spirit and Creator of all of our souls love’s us unconditionally, in spite of ourselves. We should also be so gracious towards other’s. I could go on and on, but I won’t…So at last and most importantly, we are told to “work out our own salvation” Yep, I threw away the “with fear and trembling” part! I didn’t need it!
I wish you well and all of the best, Mr. BeAttitude, in your journey through life…I wish you continued peace with your own spirit…
Sincerely
May 30, 2009 at 4:30 pm |
I love your kindness in your reply. I really appreciate that. I am not so kind to do so. I honestly cannot sit still when I know that people are saying illogical things. I am definitely not saying that I have it all together or that I have it all figured out, but what makes sense is right.
I’m sorry if people have said that you can’t be saved. I honestly have not come to my conclusions about constant sin and being saved at the same time. Whether one is a Christian who is homosexual all their lives or whether one is a Christian who lies all their lvies, it doesn’t mtter, it’s really all sin. I really do not think that God is alright with your sin, and it just trips me out when I meet intelligent people like you who seem to love the Lord yet do not want to follow what he says.
It is honestly so wrong to say that you can take whatever piece of Scripture you like and to toss out the rest and you can believe in whatever you want. That’s false, and illogical. It doesn’t make sense. One cannot believe in mutiple religions all at the same time because they all fundamentally contradict each other. I am most certain that you rejected the verse in the Bible that says that not even one letter can be added or removed from Scripture. You probably didn’t like that one so you threw it out too, huh?
I’m not trying to be mean, but you are really leading people the wrong way, and with no basis. It is really unfortunate that in this day and age (particularly in America) it has become a salad-bar religion. You pick and choose which you like from each religion. I’ve heard people say that I am an Athiest-Christian or a Muslim-Budhist. They contradict each other, it doesn’t make logical and reasonable sense.
A lot of times people pick and choose what they like in Scripture and don’t like because thye only want to follow their “made-up” god, not the real God (who He has revealed through Scripture). People don’t want to be accountable for their actions or sins so they throw out those verse that say you are. It is foolish, and illogical, and you have to decide. You either follow God or you don’t. You either follow God the way He has revealed Himself or you don’t, or else you end up making your own god. That doesn’t make sense, does it?
May 30, 2009 at 4:48 pm |
Anna,
It is merely your opinion that anything I said was illogical. It’s nothing more or nothing less…Plus, I’m not leading people in any way, whether it’s the right way or the wrong way. If the people that you descibed as “being led the wrong way” by anything I said is that easily swayed they have much bigger problems to contend with than eating from a salad bar…
June 2, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I’m not trying to be mean whatsoever, because I understand that everyone deserves respect, and I am not trying to put you down, but I honestly do not believe that logical people will agree with what you said.
The reason is because again, when it comes to the Bible, or any written books of religions, you can’t accept only some verses that you like as God’s Word and reject the rest. They are either God’s Words, or they are not. You can say that you like some verses and you don’t like others, but that doesn’t mean that the verses you like are truth and the verses you don’t like are not truth.
But I do agree with you that it is a major problem if people are easily swayed by things. I think that is the problem of our day, that people are easily swayed to believe that there is no God because generally people do not want to be accountable for their actions.
It is unfortunate that a lot of people do not apply themselves and work hard to learn about what the Bible really is saying…We have become a Biblically illiterate country
May 30, 2009 at 4:27 pm |
This is interesting. I never had much real “faith” to lose before I finally just dropped the whole Jesus and God thing. I agree with you on the flaws, and even if the bible actually held something that inspired me, most people who follow it now are going corrupt (not the average families who visit on Sunday, the powerful ones who are higher up in the system) and it’s been that way since the beginning of Catholocism.
And the Ten Commandments are just… depressing. Is it really so much to ask that you try to do the right things in your life for the sake of being a good person and helping others to be happy instead of being held under the threat of going to eternal torment? Death is universally a scary enough concept in most cultures, why add threats and promises to it “according to your behavior”?
I’m not exactly glad to see someone lose faith in something they used to believe in, but I am glad to see other people who have no problems with aethiest beliefs because I’ve faced a lot of pressure from close family and friends to go back to Jesus and God. It makes me feel less like a black sheep.
May 30, 2009 at 4:36 pm |
I think a lot of times the problem with people losing faith is that they never had it to begin with. They never had real firm grounds of evidence to stand on.
It is not by our actions that we are saved or unsaved, rather it is by the actions of God (i.e. through Christ) that brings us salvation if we so choose to accept it. You are NOT saved or unsaved by your actions, your actions are supposed to flow out of the fact that you are so appreciative of what Christ has done for you, that you will follow His example and that you will attempt to meet His perfect standard.
A lot of times, it is unfortunate that people fall away from God because they want to sin, and have sex, and things like that.
I would personally encoirage you to challenge yourself to re-evalutate yourself and question why you believed before and do not now. Have you ever honestly sat down and studied the Bible in depth and in its context? A lot of people don’t and that’s sad.
I would really encourage you to read this wonderful book called “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” by Norman L. Geisler. it is amazing and it is so worth reading if you’re serious about it. It will totally build up your faith and help give you reasons logically as to why it makes more sense to believe in God.
May 30, 2009 at 7:01 pm |
Okay, so I had a nice long comment, but my laptop lost the internet connection, and it was lost, so this is different from what I had oriningally thought.
I had written a point for point response, but now I’m almost glad it was deleted, because I got a second look at your comment.
What you wrote in response to me, and to several other people pretty much suns up my problem with religion in general. To have faith in ideas that you truly believe in, and stick with them is great. But when you use that faith to say, “there are no different opinions, there are only right and wrong ones, and mine is the only right one” is just nasty.
Faith is a lot like a trust fall. When you tip over, you have no way of proving someone or something will catch you, even if someone’s standing there making promises that they will. But just because you have to fall back doesn’t mean you have to wrap a blindfold on and fall over like a blind sheep. You should look around as you fall and make your own educated decision instead of assuming you’re right.
I have no idea which religion is right, or if athiests are right and there is no God. I freely admit that, and my problem with most Catholics is that they know that, and still insist that without a doubt, they are right, and that anyone who has different ideas is automatically someone to be looked down on, and an uneducated idiot who has never done any research on the subject and just decided they didn’t have enough faith to fall back on Jesus. When I really started questioning my faith, I read several different versions of the bible, and talked to several different ministers, reverend, and priests. Then I spoke with a rabbi, and read up on Bhuddism, Confuscious, and Allah. It was not that I didn’t know about religion, it was that I looked and looked until I realised I just didn’t have that belief.
Only those who are blinded by their own fear put on blindfolds, and you shouldn’t be afraid of what you believe in.
And why do you people feel the need to correct anyone who doesn’t share your opinion? I can understand telling someone otherwise when they make an incorrect statement, or misquote something, but since ancient times to this day, you have been converting people like it’s your job.
Can you not just respect someone else’s decision as their own, or respect that people of other faiths think they are just as right as you think you are? It’s quite frankly insulting to tell peopl that they are wrong, when you have no “evidence” yourself.
You say you find proof in your soul, and in mine, I saw proof that there was no God I could believe in. I would appreciate it if you would respect that.
Also, in another conversation, you complained of someone being illogical. News: religion is illogical. All of it, from every religion. There is no proof, no rhyme or reason, no concrete evidence. You shouldn’t complain about what you believe in, unless you don’t really believe in it.
May 30, 2009 at 7:08 pm |
Another point I’d like to put out there for you is that it really isn’t that difficult to convince twelve people you’re god. It’s called a cult and it’s happened hundreds of times throughout history. When you think about it, all cult leaders are charismatic, have a handful of close confidants, and preach something everyone likes, but then spins it off in a different direction, all the while glorifying themselves with “mircales” and all of that; sound familiar?
Just putting it out there for you.
June 2, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I really feel offended by your reply. The reason is because you utterly misquoted me, put words in my mouth that I never said, made assumptions about what I BELIEVE, THINK, and UNDERSTAND.
I NEVER ever even slightly ever hinted to this idea that “there are no different opinions”. There clearly are different opinions, I would never make such an illogical and just stupid claim in my life.
Obviously, we both have differeing opinions and so do most people on this blog, so why would I even say that?
I personally believe that you have heard a lot of “religious” people make stupid claims and you are taking it out on me and you are insulting me by saying that I am blindfolded (when reality is that YOU are the one who has Admitted to not knowing if there is a God or not).
I KNOW that there IS a GOD, YOU are the one that is Unsure! (And it’s okay to be unsure, my point is to challenge yourself to not allow yourself to remain in that unsure state forever, because if you are going to live like there is NO God, you better be Right! Because there really is Hell to Pay) You should really search, study, chellenge yourself and come to your conclusions on this matter.
And it is very sad that you claim that I am not respecting other people’s opinions, when just NOW…YOU are the one that is NOT respecting MY opinions. I NEVER said anythnig offensive to you, I gave you advice and I even mentioned a book that you should really read (if you are serious about it)
Then you go on to basically say that Christianity is a “cult”…that is hilarious. You obviously do not know much of anything (Christianity is one of the MAJOR religions of this world). And you CLEARLY have not read the Bible if you think that only a measley 12 people were convinced that Jesus is God! (reality check, MILLIONS of people over these past 2000 years and on are STILL convinced that Jesus is God such as people like me. He OBVIOUSLY left a DENT in History, don’t you think?) There is NO ONE in the History of humanity that has had such an impact in all of History then Jesus Christ Himself.
You seem to be claiming that you are educated for looking at other religions and deciding that you don’t believe, that’s fine, but I honestly do not believe that you really studied them. And that is on you to decide if you really have taken it as far as you can and have really asked all of the questions. It is not about what your mom, dad, uncle, cousin, or brother believe, it’s about what YOU believe and if you have not found the answers on your own, then that’s on you. No one can make you believe something that you have not understood to be true for yourself.
I have my “evidence” as you say and I HAVE studied (and I am NOT Done studying…I NEVER will be, I will continue to seek to find more out about the Lord til the day I die) I eprsonally believe that I am a somewhat educated and logical person. I love philosophy and I grasp the concepts of logic and when something is illogical or a falasy.
If I claim that someone is illogical, it is because their argument does not make sense, and not because they don’t believe in God. It’s not about whether they believe or not, if you don’t believe, then have logical reasons for it. Don’t just say that you don’t like Catholics (which I am a Christian and I do not follow the Apocrypha like Catholics do).
I study the Bible everyday, it’s my life, I have made it my goal to udnerstand and know God and to udnerstand His Word. And to listen to what the other side of the argument is. Beucase I was Athiest and I did not believe, and my arguments were not logical then….I still have not found someone with a logical argument to convince me that God is not real or that Jesus is not God! So, why should I stop believeing when I know that the other arguments are weak and that my own studying and the studies of brilliant men and women before me know that Jesus is God? I experience life with God everyday…I’ve been on the other side and I know what it’s like, why should I logically go back?
And you’re right, it is like a free-fall….but I am not free-falling onto mere promises, the reason I have no problem trusting when I fall back, is because way before I ever trusted, I was already on the ground, and the ONE that I fall back on, is the one who lifted me from the ground to begin with. I can only trust and fall in something that is sure. Faith is not the jumping blindly without knowing, it’s jumping BECAUSE you KNOW!
It’s like a chair, I sit on a chair with no hesitation and I am sure you do too. Any chair that it may be, I am certain that it will hold me and sustain me when I sit down. I plop right down with no heitation, why? Because I have already come to understand how chairs work, the way that they are sturctured, the purpose for them…I do not examine a chair thoroughly everytime I want to sit down. I have FAITH that it will hold me! Because time and time again, I have reason and sufficient evidence that chairs will hold me.
I hope you get the point that I am trying to make…if you want to learn a sliver of that evidence that I so trust in by believeing in God, then you should really read that book I recommended to you. It won’t hurt…
And I am still kind of offended that you said that I look down on people and think that they are idiots and uneducated just because they don’t believe what I believe. That is SO not me! Again, I do not think that people are illogical, its the arguments that they
present that may be illogical.
May 30, 2009 at 4:29 pm |
It’s interesting to see how different people will branch out into different ways of thinking. For example, I’ve recently embraced evolution as a Christian but instead of it leading me away from God, it has deepened my understanding of God and the universe He has created for us to live in.
My (brief) thoughts on evolution: http://www.aloh.wordpress.com
May 30, 2009 at 4:38 pm |
That’s interesting because there are Christian-Evolutionists, and of course there are Christians who reject evolution.
I personally am one who rejects it because in my opinion it does not make sense and there is not enough reasonable evidence to believe in it. I mean, Macro-Evolution is the topic here, I do believe in Micro-Evolution.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics seems to disprove evolution.
June 8, 2009 at 8:28 pm |
You lack an understanding of Thermodynamics if you believe it “disproves” evolution. Entropy is always increasing. If the primary energy source of the ecosystem (the sun) were to cease to exist, so would life on Earth. There is no free energy in evolution. Also, there is no distinguishing factors between micro and macro evolution. They both follow the exact same theory, premise, evidence and mathematics; the only difference between the two is scale. Thus, it’s illogical to believe in one and not the other.
Also, evolution has the largest body of evidence out of any scientific field. So, it’s laughable that you think it requires more rigor; it’s a standard you likely set just high enough to keep God a safe distance away from reason.
May 30, 2009 at 4:31 pm |
I know that struggling with your faith can be very hard, especially after 33 years so I admire you for being able to explain the issues you struggle with. I know what it’s like to have a strong faith fall apart and crumble, and it’s a very difficult thing to go through.
In my experience religion creates division. From what I see it breaks familys apart and it hurts people; and all for what? We make life worse here for the possible chance it’ll all be better on the other side.
If you want to believe the New Testament, since everyone seems to like to forget the unsavoury bits in the Old, then God allegedly wants us to love one another yet all I can see is religion causing division and hate.
It’s difficult to explain it to someone who hasn’t experienced it. A lot of the commentors on these sorts of sites seem to be American or live in countries where religion hasn’t destroyed their society. But I do. I live in N. Ireland in a society were religion causes people to fight and die; where people killed innocents simply for having the wrong beliefs about God; where you are afraid to walk down certain streets if you worship differently from the other side; where you tiptoe around meeting new people until you can work out whether they’re “one of us” or “one of them”. Thankfully the worst of it is over, but occasionally like just last week it rears its ugly head and everyone holds their breath in case it all flares up again.
And what’s worse you are born into it. You don’t really get to pick sides or decide what is right. You are born one side or the other and it’s a stigma you are marked with. To change sides is a betrayal of your family, your heritage and your people. It doesn’t really matter that I’m an Athiest here, what matters is whether I’m a Catholic Athiest or a Protestant Athiest. Thus I am opposed to this obsession we humans have with organised religion. Why do we feel the need to create divisions and seperations everywhere we go? Maybe whether or not God actually exists is irrelevant, what we should really be focusing on is the great harm that having the whole world divided into warring factions based on supersition and myths does. Because you can’t argue with someone when they are acting out their faith, since you can’t prove faith or justify it and so any attempt at rational debate or compromise goes out the window. It’s simply my way or the high way.
A lot of our problems at home here aren’t actually to do with religion, but it’s such an easy way to tell the enemy apart then why bother with anything else? Religion is the easiest method to use to demonise others. A lot of so called “Religious” wars are really about politics, but why confuse people with political debate when you can just say the God decreed it so with an ancient story book to back you up and have a thousand loyal supporters to fight for your cause.
I have heard the argument that this is not Gods doing but Mans bastardisation of His word, but to be frank that is absolute nonsense. What sort of Omnipotent Deity allows his followers to get so messed up? Why did He suddenly stop reigning down fire and brimstone when we got things wrong, and stop send burning bushes to help guide us back on the path?
There are many problems I have had with God that cause me to lose my faith, but the worst is how He sits by and allows pain and suffering to be carried out in his name. He allows women to be repressed and encourages their stoning if they get out of line; He makes it okay to hate and attack people who can’t help being born homosexual; He encourages you to hate your neighbour and try to destroy them if they happen to worship someone other that Him.
As a human being I can’t stand to see another person in pain, and I cannot comprehend an All-Loving Omnipotent Deity that sits by and lets it happen. A Deity that claims to abhorr violence on one hand and be mercy and kind, yet with the other writes decrees that we should hate and depise those who do not worship him. A Deity like that should be depised not loved.
May 30, 2009 at 4:45 pm |
It seems like you are in a really tough situation. I am really sorry for that. I know that in certain parts of China, people who are found out to be Christian are persecuted and killed. But is it not interesting that there are more Christians in China than any where else?
Persecution and division happen over many things, religion is the most important. That’s why i think people take it to an extreme, which i totally beleive is wrong. Unfortunately, and you’re right, a lot of people take God’s name and start wars with it. This is wrong. But it is not logical to reject God because of what some horrible people do (in the name of God). God is infinite and perfect, we are finite and imperfect. Do not look at man to represent God to the T, it won’t happen.
No where in the Bible have I ever read that God tells us to hate people, so if you could please give me Scripture to back that, i would love to read it.
And also, about homosexulity, it is still unclear whether it is genetic or many factors outside of genetics. So, it is really bold of you to say that they are born that way…
May 30, 2009 at 5:43 pm |
Maybe there are more Christians in China because that’s where most of the worlds population is centred? In a small European nation 1 million people is a staggering statistic, not so in China. You need to look at proportionality, not numbers.
Religion is supposed to be taken to extremes. Pope Benedict is currently looking for a smaller, more devout Catholic Church; certain Scottish Anglicans want a much more conservative church; certain Islamic leaders preach fundamentalism. The leaders of Religion love the devout, because they don’t question, they just follow.
If God is perfect, how can he create something imperfect? Everything a perfect being creates must be perfect, otherwise the being cannot be perfecet. It’s the theological paradox of can God create a rock so big even He can’t lift it. And don’t explain that we were made this way on purpose, since then it means that God has deliberately allowed us to fail. He knows before we were even made not all of us will pass the tests He sets, and if he is Omniscience then He knows exactly which ones of us will fail, and yet he allows this farce of human suffering to continue.
Really? The Bible? Matthew, New Testament: “Do not suppose that I came to bring peace to the earth: I did not come to bring peace but a sword”
The Old Testament of the Bible? Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.”
Deutronomy 20:8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
(20:9) “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.”
There are websites abound that list these examples.
The Crusades? Prior to the Reformation, most of the Western branches of Christainity belonged to Catholicism, in which the Popes word is God’s decree: “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” Matt. 16:19. The Pope supported the violence of Crusades therefore so too did God. Too many of the Born Again Christians like to forget their roots, but history doesn’t forget.
As for homosexuality the proof is mounting that there is a genetic link, my statement isn’t bold it’s an educated hypothesis in relation to the current evidence available. Twin studies, which are the general standard for the first look at genetic traits, show a positive correalation in regards to sexuality. Not to mention the biological evidence that sexuality is decided prior to birth due to the number of elder brothers a male has. We also can programme homosexuality in Drosdelia Flies by simply knocking out certain genes, it’s a long leap from fly to human but nearly all of our genetic studies start with them so it’s pretty intriguing evidence. I personally think it’s unlikely we’ll ever find a single gay gene, but you can be genetically predisposed to CVD but try and pin down a single CVD disease. (Then again, we did find the exact Huntington’s gene so maybe I’m wrong)
June 2, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Well, I am going to try and go about addressing each of your points (sorry, it’s really long)…
First off, the China thing, you are definitely right about population, major factor! Of course, but what I am trying to say is that it seems that places of persecution grow stronger and true Christians. In America, honestly, most Christians are wimps (personally, I believe it is because many are not have backed away from educating themselves with Apologetics and logical thinking (so they lose their confidence))! They do not stand up for what they believe and they lose faith once one of their friends makes fun of them. That’s sad. So, I was coming from that perspective that sometimes the places of persecution develop truer Christians and more because to follow Christ metaphorically and now, physically means to be willing to lay your whole life down…
It is interesting for you to say that religion is “supposed to be taken to the extremes”. I mean, I guess in this case it is how you define “extreme”. And it seems that if you define it by “obey and don’t question” then I believe that is a very bad extreme to go to, which unfortunately, many religions do… For Instance, In the Koran it does say to believe without asking questions (basically). It is sad that extreme is equated to blind faith. When actually, in the Christian Bible it says to have reason and logic behind what you believe so that when someone asks, you can have reasons for why you believe and to tell them that. So, if there are any “religious people” who are under the “Christian” category, that follow blindly and do not have a reason for why they believe, well they are essentially going against what the Scripture says. I think, I am an extreme person to the eyes of many people. In the secular world I am viewed as Conservative and In the Christian world, it’s funny that I am viewed as sort of liberal. I really personally don’t care what people think of me, as long as they understand maybe a little bit more about God after they meet me then before, I love opening new doors for people that maybe they have never even considered. Maybe some think I am extreme for following God and living my life for Him, but that’s okay with me. But again, I definitely am opposed to people who follow blindly without reason. Whether you believe in God or you don’t believe in God, I think people should have logical reasons for what they believe!
God is perfect; you have answered your question. You asked if God is perfect, then how can He create something imperfect. Well, I hope you have read the few beginning chapters of Genesis…because He INFACT DID create Perfection…if you pay attention closely, you will find that WE were the ones who SCREWED it all up! lol sad, but true…and we’re screw ups to this day…(me included) But you are right in what you said…God has allowed us to fail, doesn’t mean that He MADE us to fail. It was our choice, we chose to disobey…He gave us freedom, freedom to choose, choice doesn’t equal imperfection, it’s what we do with that choice that may or may not lead to imperfection. (which it unfortunately did) And you’re right, He knows which one of us will fail, you know who they are? ALL OF US! lol But I don’t understand something that you said, human suffering is not a farce, it’s a reality…isn’t it? Allowing Human Suffering and Causing human suffering are two different things, and I’m not gonna lie, I am getting tired of seeing so much suffering being allowed. But that doesn’t take away from His perfection, logically speaking…
You are asking a question that a lot of people ask, but do not really understand what they are asking is illogical. You asked if God can make a rock so big that He can’t lift it…well, that question is illogical. The reason is because it is a categorical fallacy. It’s like the question “Can God make a Square-Circle?” Well, what defines a square to be a square and a circle to be a circle are completely different. A square has 4 angles and a circle has NO angles. So, you are asking an impossible question. God would not do something logically impossible, it’s just impossible! A circle and a square are different categories; therefore it is a categorical fallacy. What does a “Square-Circle” even LOOK LIKE? And the whole Rock question (The answer is yes and no)…it would be impossible and illogical for God to make a rock so big that He couldn’t lift it, because first it is yes because He does have the power to make such a big rock, but then He wouldn’t be GOD anymore. The reason is because now He has created something greater than Him, So the question is, can God make something more powerful than Him, that now the thing HE CREATED is OVERPOWERING HIM? It just is an illogical question and again a categorical fallacy. God and a Rock are in two different categories. I hope you are able to follow what I am saying. I hope that my argument makes sense to you. Can something created be greater than the Creator?
A good question to you would be…do you think that people can kill others without having hate? (because you are clearly associating killing with hate)
You found some really good verses, well the verse about God coming to earth not to bring peace but a sword must be understood in its context. (It’s Matthew 10:34) It seems that in its context, understood properly, the “sword” is symbolic of division, not literal killing or death of any sort. It is about the fact that some will follow Christ and some will reject Him, and this disagreement within households will bring division. For example, my mother was the first in her whole family to become Christian, and I made fun of her for two whole years and it brought division in our family because I thought she was crazy, insane, and brainwashed. I’m sure she prayed a lot for me. But anyways, my point is, it brings division. This is the context of the verse (at least that one).
And also, it is important to note that when Jesus was with His few select disciples in the Garden before they arrested Him, remember when Peter took out his sword and sliced off one of the guards ears, well Christ told Peter to put the sword down, because those who live by the sword will die by the sword. It is also curious to note that a few chapters before this scene, Christ told his disciples to bring swords with them (yet, He knew that there would be a time that would come that he will be an example and say that we should put the swords down)…
You found some really good verses in the OT too. Exodus, definitely great. Ummm, but you must, again, remember the context of the verses. What’s happening in Exodus? They have left Egypt and God is defining them and molding them to look like the People of God, to be set apart from the rest of the surrounding pagan people. So, Exodus 22:20 is really good, but pay attention to the two verses before that too. They say, “v.18 Do not allow a sorceress to live. v.19 Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be killed”. Then He says, “v.20 Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed”. Again, please remember the context. God has JUST brought them out of Egypt and is giving them all these standards that they must live by. Try to follow me here…I do not believe that there would be any sorcerers among them because they are still trippin over what God just did for them, there probably would not be anybody who is having sexual relations with animals because they are still trippin over what God just did for them, and I do not think that there would be any among them who are sacrificing to other gods because they are still trippin over what God has done for them. They are in a community of believers who just experiences miracles after miracles and there is no account of any sorcerer, anyone having sexual relations with an animal, and anyone sacrificing to gods being killed. But let’s say that there was and someone was killed for sacrificing to other gods, then the whole point of this time period in history is for God to set a people apart for Him. He commands that there be no sin among them and that they be holy because God is holy. So, if they were cut off, destroyed, killed, or whatever, it was to keep the purity amongst the people of God, at this particular point in time. This does not mean that all are commanded to kill sinful people (we’d all be dead). Oh, and the cursing the mother and father thing, again, there is no account of anyone being killed because of it. Honestly, what I am trying to say is that in this particular time in history, God was setting a standard for the people of God to follow and to be utterly distinct and different from everyone else. And later on, when this group of God’s people who were set free from slavery in Egypt do sin against God, some He forgives and some he personally destroys. I think God really looks at the heart of people and judges according to that. Again, there is no record of people killing other people because they sacrifice to other gods, or curse their parents, or any of that (at least not in this context). And when there are wars against other peoples in the Old Testament, it is because they are getting to the Promised Land and God is trying to keep His people holy. I mean, I would really encourage you to read the whole OT to really understand what I’m saying. It might not make sense from what I’m saying. I hope it does though…
Oh, God knows that a lot of Christians forget about all the bloodshed that took place in the name of Christianity, but I surely am not one of them. And also, it is a major problem that I personally have with the Catholic Church, that they equate the Pope’s words as equal to Scripture. HELLL NO! I get mad and it’s upsetting. There was definitely A LOT of killing and that was WRONG! It was sinful men who killed, not God. God didn’t want it that way, He would never want us to kill people if they don’t follow Christ. That is totally the opposite of what Christ stands for. Love your neighbor, love your enemies and pray for them. That verse you used is out of context too, I don’t blame you because a lot of people use it, the binding and loosing, a lot of people also apply it to demons. So that they say we are binding the demons basically. The context is Christ talking to peter and His Disciples. How does that apply to the Pope? The scene is where Peter confesses that Jesus is Christ, the Son of the Living God. Then Jesus says that this was revealed to you from heaven. Then He goes on to say that on this rock He will build His church and the gates of hell won’t prosper against it. Then He says that verse. It’s not about the Pope, or even about what believers say, it was about Peter and His disciples.
Actually, the twin study is what fuels the idea that it CAN’T be genetic, because you have fraternal twins, and one is Homosexual and the other is Heterosexual. How can this be if it is genetic? And also, I’ve never personally heard about the fruit flies and things like that, so I’ll look into it. But…definitely I agree that maybe a person can be genetically predisposed, meaning they have a hormonal imbalance of estrogen or testosterone, Which actually happens a lot. I wonder if gay men and women were to take hormone pills, if it changed all of it. At least the biological aspect of it, Because I also do not think that it genetic predisposal, but a bunch of outside factors. The way you’re raised, particularly sexual experiences such as molestation and rape, definitely the way you’re parents treated you. So many things…And also, it is important to clarify that being genetically predisposed does not mean that it is definitely going to happen, it’s up to a person, the individual to decide. Such as being genetically predisposed to alcoholism, some people fall into it and some people never take a sip. It’s a person’s choice, and again, must likely a lot of outside factors as well. Also, it is curious when people who are openly homosexual for 10, 20, 30 years become straight and follow God. It means that it is a choice. I know a few cases personally where people have gone from being homosexual for years and years, thinking that’s the way that they just are, to becoming Christian and being saved and totally changing. Even some get married to people of the opposite sex and having children, and speaking against this idea of homosexuality being genetic.
Also, I think that being bi-curious or homosexual have become a trend these days. Honestly, more and more people are experimenting and thinking that it’s something cool. They have some bad relationships with the opposite sex, so they just go to the other side. It is being flaunted everywhere and it is becoming something that is totally acceptable, where in the past they considered it a disease. I mean, now we have songs that say “I kissed a girl and I liked it, hope my boyfriend don’t mind it”. I mean, kids are growing up more confused then ever before. I think that the divorce rate also plays a role in this. Because being raised by a single parent and generally it being unhealthy is formula for disaster. I don’t know, I just have so much to say about this, but I do agree with you it may be somewhat biological, but in the fact that there is a hormonal imbalance in people, but again, this imbalance can be corrected.
May 30, 2009 at 7:20 pm |
Anna, I have a lot of freinds who are lesbian or bisexual, and I’ve asked them about it because I didn’t really get how a girl could love a girl, instead of a girl loving a man. They all told me it wasn’t an option for them. Just like I can’t make myself love a woman because I’m not oriented that way, they can’t make themselves love men, or just either men or women, because they just aren’t programmed that way. It’s not really fair of you to doubt that they are born with their sexual orientation.
June 2, 2009 at 4:20 pm
No, I agree that a lot of them feel as if they have no choice and they wish they could change. I know, it’s difficult to tackle that one because I have friends that struggle with it as well. But honestly, I have to doubt it because there is an argument for both sides of it, and I personally think that it is a choice, for the most part (but I do think that a lot of kids who are raised a certain way from birth and who may have been sexually abused think that they were born that way, but it’s just that they have been raised that way) and again, like what i commented up there just now, I do think that people do have a hormonal imbalance as well, which makes it even harder.
May 30, 2009 at 10:33 pm |
Anna,
What is wrong with you? I certainly don’t want to take anything away from this Young Man’s blog by bringing about the gay bashers. Which there is plenty to go around for every Man, Woman and Child! However I’m indeed BOLD enough to say that I was “born that way” (lesbian) and unless you walk one step in my shoes or any other homosexual’s shoes you have no right to argue any different! I no more woke up one day and decided my sexuality than you woke up one day and made the choice to be hetrosexual. The decision was made already, yet it wasn’t mine to make. The only choice that I did in fact have was to come to terms with the God of my understanding and with myself. My choice I make on a daily basis is simply to be true to myself.
You have no idea how I’ve had to suffer in this lifetime, or how any other homosexual suffers due to religious zealots and hateful people. People I like to call, fearful of controlling their own same sex desires! So they become obsessed with controlling other people! Weak people loathe the strength that it takes to have resolve and inner strength to be just who they are created to be. Despite how other’s think they should live their lives. It’s truly sad that so many other people are too weak to make this choice for themselves. Because really, anybody that’s secure with their own sexualities will not have a problem with anybody else’s (providing it’s consensual and mutual among adults)
I firmly respect the studies of Kinsey. Our sexualities are more often than not…fluid. While you may not ever sleep with another Woman (hmm without your bf being present anyway) you are a sexual being and how you choose to express yourself behind closed doors is not necessarily what other’s would do either. But then again I don’t care what you do, it’s none of my business after all! The only time I would bother to care is if a child, elderly or any innocent person for that matter is harmed or taken advantage of in any way. And let me not to forget to include animals as well! Now those things are the definition of perversion!
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love heterosexuals. It’s just that they need more supervision!
June 2, 2009 at 4:53 pm
No, you absolutely make really great points. There really is nothing wrong with me and I have not said anything wrong. There is no homosexual gene that has been proven, I’m sorry, but I go with facts. And I am so honestly sorry that you struggle, I really am, but you beliving that you were born that way doesn’t mean you actually were.
Trust me, I don’t have to walk in your shoes, I’ve walked in my own already and I know how it feels to want to be with the same sex. I don’t typically like spreading it around, but I did sturggle with those desires as well, but I guess the factors for me weren’t so strong that i went to the other side.
Actually, I did make the decision to be heterosexual, because I could be bi-sexual or even lesbian anytime I choose, but I choose not to be. Some people feel the need to be lesbian stronger than being heterosexual and that’s the way they go. Or again, it mgiht be the way that they grew up from very little, so all they remember is leaning towards their own sex rather than the opposite sex and they are convinced that they were born that way.
I have really good friends and even some family members who are gay, please don’t make false presuppositions about me just because I am a Christian and because a few of the many have represented in the wrong way. I agree with you Religious Zealots and HATEFUL People SUCK!!!
I believe that you were totally misunderstanding me and boxing me up with the rest. I am not trying to control anybodies sexuality, that’s their choice. But I am not gonig to agree that it is okay. I’m sorry, it’s not. I do not have a problem with other people’s sexuality because I am insecure of mine, it is because it is wrong according to God and according to logic.
If everyone gave into their homosexual desires (let’s just say), then the human race would die off because there would be no offspring. I don’t know about you, but that sounds pretty illogical and unnatural. You are going against what you are made to do and to be.
But wow, I am offended that you would say this “While you may not ever sleep with another Woman (hmm without your bf being present anyway)”…that’s really messed up. What if I said to you, “While you may not ever sleep with another Man (hmm without your gf being present anyway)”
I don’t know, that sounds pretty mean to me, what do you think? I think You’re really rude.
Anyways, regardless of whether you are rude or not, your argument is flawed. You say that it takes a lot of boldness, courage, and strength to be “simply true” to yourself.
Well, honey…let me remind you that if everyone was, what you say “simply true” to themselves, then this world would be destroyed in a day.
You are giving into your sinful desires, and if I were to do that, I’d sleep around with thousands of people, because hey, I’m simply being true to my desires, and then I would go kill a bunch of people, because hey, I’m simply being true to myself. NO!!! YOU’RE WRONG!!! Yes, THERE, I SAID IT, You’re utterly WRONG!!!
It does not take STRENGTH to give into evil desires, IT TAKES STRENGTH to REFUSE to Give IN!!! You have it all TWISTED!
It takes more strength, more power, more courage, more boldness, and more patience to do RIGHT then to do what’s Wrong! It is sooo hard to resist temptation. I’m sorry, but You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Why are you okay with homosexuality as long as people like “children, the elderly and the innocent” don’t get hurt? Who said that it’s wrong for them to get hurt? Where do you get your standards from.
What if my personal sexual desires were to have sex with ten year old girls? Hey, I’m simply being true to myself and having enough strength to be comfortable with my sexuality…
Why is it wrong for a grown man to have sex with a young girl? Who says that’s wrong but yet it’s okay for the same-sex people to have sexual relations? Where do we get our standards? Who is making ALL THESE RULES???
My true self is SINFUL honey, and so is EVERYBODY elses. Do you REALLY want everyone to give into their Desires??? Think about it!
I’m sorry, but I get really mad when people use that argument…it doesn’t make logical sense. “Being true to yourself” is not a reason, at least not a reasonable and logical reason to do whatever you want, especially when it comes to sexuality because it is such an intimate thing. You are not only giving yourself physically to that person and conecting with them physically, but you are spiritually connecting as well. And many people don’t realize that, they give a picec of themselves over to that eprson everytime they have sex.
Yes, more rules for the heterosexuals because there are more heterosexuals than homosexuals during that time…Everyone needs supervision!
(I’m not trying to make this a homosexual discussion either, but it’s definitely a hot topic…wouldn’t you say?)
May 30, 2009 at 4:32 pm |
Evolution is right, but people would like to think there is a superior power there to guide us, but the truth is there isn’t one. God is a fictional character made up by people whom wish to justify what they have or had done in the lives.
My gf and I broke up a few weeks ago and the main reason was our differences in religion. She is a faithful white Christian and I am just a normal Asian boy. Religion was the excuse she used to broke up with me. If God love all his creations then why would he make us have this problem? If we are all his sons and daughters, why in the Bible it states that God sent his “ONLY” son to wash away our sins? So what are we?
I agree with the author of this post, God doesn’t exist. God exists if you want it to exist, and majority of the believers believe because they were taught to believe. And please save the “God works in a misery way” phrase, that is like saying we can’t answer you but we don’t have the decency to answer you.
I dare to say I have extreme high moral, and I believe a lot of people out there also poss this quality but is it because of God? I beg to defer, we can only try our best to be a better person not relying on a fictional character.
May 30, 2009 at 4:52 pm |
I am sorry that you and your girlfriend broke up. I personally was not raised in a Christian home, I was an atheist and it took a lnog time for me to study the bible and to finally accept Jesus Christ as who He is…God!
Trust me, it would be really difficult for a person who is serious about God to be with someone who isn’t, it really is a good excuse. it will save you from a lot of heartache, regret, and disagreements.
God didn’t bring problems, you and her did.
And where you asked about Jesus being only Son of God, if you read the Bible it says that we are all considered children of God through Christ. Meaning, that not only the Israelites are the Chosen people of God whpo prided themselves on being the Children of God, but rather everyone who accepts Christ as God, lord, and Savior is a child of God. You have to read that verse in it’s context.
I would really encourage you to read the Bible in depth and to study it. if you are serious about your questions and you’re confused…I would really challenge you to read this great book called “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” by Norman L. Geisler. You won’t regret it.
May 30, 2009 at 4:35 pm |
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