My son and daughter happily watched a Superman movie yesterday afternoon. Shortly after it finished, I heard my five-year-old daughter tell my wife, “Superman is awesome, he’s better than God!”
My wife immediately said, “No he isn’t! Superman is just pretend and God is real.” My daughter started to cry because she thought she had done something wrong.
My daughter’s statement abruptly stopped me as I was on my computer responding to one of the numerous comments to my last post. Since I recently walked away from my faith, I have decided to stay fairly neutral on this with my children.
My wife still takes them to church regularly, but whenever my daughter asks me questions about God I am honest with her. I am not disputing my wife’s desire to teach them about her belief in God and when they are older I will discuss with them from my perspective. The last thing I want to do is force my children to agree with me. I want them to see the world with open eyes and decide for themselves what they believe.
My question is what does this say about “faith like a child”? Young children will believe whatever we tell them. But even at five years old my daughter is already questioning God.
My daughter broke her arm a month ago in a fall off playground equipment. The broken bone required surgery and she was in a great deal of pain. She woke up screaming for me in the middle of the night and I ran to her room. She immediately told me, “I prayed for God to stop my arm from hurting so I could sleep. But he didn’t do it. Why?” I looked at her and honestly said, “I don’t know sweetie. I ask the same questions why a loving God wouldn’t help you.” Then I made her comfortable and gave her Ibuprofen. On that night, a dose of children’s Ibuprofen was better than God too.
So how should I respond to my daughter’s statement yesterday? What could I say to her that wouldn’t build a wedge into my marriage? I do have to agree with my daughter, the only superpower God seems to posses is the power of invisibility.
Tags: Agnostic, Atheist, Bible, Child, Children, Christian, Faith, God, Jesus, Marriage, Parenting, Superman
May 31, 2009 at 11:05 am |
I used to work in a church. There was a print on a bulletin board that I saw every week. The picture showed Jesus from behind. On one side were adoring children. On the other side were hostile adults. There is a poetry there that defies easy answers.
May 31, 2009 at 11:27 am |
I don’t think it’s necessarily important that you let your daughter know you agree with her or disagree with her on this issue; it is more important that she know she has your support whether she holds a conflicting opinion or not. I would ask her questions that help her come to her own conclusion instead of simply answering a “What do you think, Daddy”-type question right off that bat. Try to think of a way to get her to answer her own questions without necessarily guiding her in any particular direction.
I asked questions at a very young age like your daughter, and while my parents were very supportive, their support was (in my eyes) conditional, whether they realized it or not. For example, “Yes, sweetie, that’s right” on a “Jesus DOES love me” conversation, but a more quiet or solemn response to a frustration with unanswered prayers. (Or one like your wife’s to the superman comment.)
For all their encouragement of my questioning, they were giving off very obvious signals about which questions I SHOULD ask and which ones I should stay away from–and what they wanted to hear from me.
Don’t tell her she’s wrong or right if she can’t see God; ask her what she can see. Why is Superman awesome? Why is she unhappy with God? If God had some of these qualities she likes in Superman, would it be easier for her to believe in him, or would the fact that he’s invisible always be a problem? What if Superman wore an invisible cape–would he be like God? Or is there something more with God that troubles her than the fact that he seems to be hiding?
These are just a few questions, but the point is to really get her thinking–continually–and not necessarily let her settle immediately on whether or not she likes or believes in God; let her know that she doesn’t have to know tonight, and it’s okay to be disappointed with people. Let her know that not everybody believes in God, but some people do and love him more than superman–like her mom, but that you will love her no matter what she believes in, and you will talk with her about whatever she wants.
May 31, 2009 at 9:19 pm |
Best answer.
May 31, 2009 at 9:50 pm |
Agreed. Very good insight.
June 1, 2009 at 11:17 am |
This is fantastic advice for almost anything. I firmly believe that holding and encouraging this viewpoint, that it is important to ask questions about what fascinates you, is about the most important things we can do as people.
Children especially are hungry for knowledge about the world around them and the best thing a parent can do is to provide the tools that will let them discern it for themselves from their own point of view.
May 31, 2009 at 12:04 pm |
Children are typically more honest than adults tend to be. I don’t know what you should say, but I hope that you can continue to encourage your daughter’s inquisitive spirit while not stepping on your wife’s toes.
May 31, 2009 at 1:41 pm |
Sir, every Christian should do as you say and “see the world with open eyes and decide for themselves what they believe.
Yet, to even do this presupposes Christ’s existence because He is the Logos and without Him there is no such things as “reason”, hence the ability to “decide” anything.
Further, let’s question your arbitrary moralism and decide why you should be “moral” in a universe where there is no God, thus no real morality where things are really right and really wrong which we are really accountable to.
And comparing Superman to Christ? Are you kidding me? Have you read Revelation when Christ returns and kills all the bad guys and does so with His army dressed in pure white? Christ created the universe and holds it together. Superman is a fornicator and needs a Savior, Jesus Christ. Much of Superman was actually borrowed from Christ. Both are from a small town, are not from this world, have indestructable power, have empathy on humans, etc. Yet, Christ has no red underwear and best of all has no kryptonite! Christ has no weakness.
His only weakness is when He is intentially meek, and humbles Himself to be slaughtered on behalf of sinners as an act of profound and undeserving grace. This ties into your daughter wanting relieve from her pain. The well rounded Scriptural response is that even Jesus Christ who is God suffered more then anyone as He took God’s own wrath upon Himself for countless individuals. But Rom 8:28 gives us hope that all things work together for good to those whom God loves.
Again, you show how you were never a genuine believer becasue you lack this type of Biblical discernement, yet you try to position yourself as having some genuine exit from Christianity given your supposed long past with it.
And God is invisible. Read Col 1. But Jesus is the part of God who makes God known and reveals Him to us. Jesus is most revealed to us through the testimony of the Holy Spirit by way of the true gospel message, which you will find on my blog. Again, you don’t only believe everything you can see, hence why you believe you have belief there is no God! Yet not even your belief can be seen. Why don’t you hold yourself to the same standard that you hold to God?! This type of behavior is just a fulfillment of Rom 1:18-20 and 8:6-8.
May 31, 2009 at 9:25 pm |
“Further, let’s question your arbitrary moralism and decide why you should be “moral” in a universe where there is no God, thus no real morality where things are really right and really wrong which we are really accountable to.”
Hmm… so morality can only exist if there is a big father figure in the sky to mete out punishment? Really?
“you show how you were never a genuine believer becasue you lack this type of Biblical discernement”
Isn’t there a saying somewhere about a mote in your neighbors eye….? Anyway, this is called the no true Scotsman fallacy, look it up. Just because someone doesn’t share your opinion they were never a genuine believer? Really?
Sigh.
May 31, 2009 at 10:11 pm |
Will, let’s reason together. In order to have a real morality where there are real rights and real wrongs which we are really accountable to, there first must be a standard which defines all that is good, right, and true. What is your standard? Mine is the personal, eternal, immutable, all good God of Scripture.
And the passage your referring to is Mat 5, and the context is that you shouldn’t judge someone else for wrong if you’re committing that very same wrong. I am not going around and falsely representing Christianity as one who supposedly was one for many years, so I am making a right judgment.
And to use logical fallacies you first must account for meanings so that you can at least arrive to classical logic and the 3 law of logic. How do you account for abstract absolute meanings? But even if I let you borrow from the Christian worldview and account for them, I would say my argument isn’t deduction, but is a Scriptural inference. It is not according to my own opinion.
May 31, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Cameron – So God gave you morals? That is too funny. He if he was real, would be the MOST IMMORAL thing alive. Do not worry he is a mass delusion. Since you like Bart Erhman, maybe you should get his book. God’s Problems. It deals with suffering.
FYI – You got what morals you do have from who ever raised you, immediate family and the society you live in and some part genetic. Yes your ugly petty religion I am sure was part of that. Mom and Dad get more credit, than your fairy tale. If you think for a second if there was no god, you would be evil. Then you are now. Your god will not stop you, and will forgive your ass by just asking. For anything you have done. What a dumb way to think of morals. Poorly written deity with no morals, judging those better than himself. That is funny. Stupid Christians.
June 1, 2009 at 3:11 am
Cameron, using Christian morals doesn’t make you a makes you a good person. You don’t do bad things because you care about the others, you don’t do bad things because you’re concern the big guy in the sky will send you to hell.
If I don’t steal from my friend is because I do care about his happiness not becuase what could happen to me after I’m dead.
It’s like someone who doesn’t break the speed limit becuase he’s afraid of the police instead of not breaking it because he doesn’t want to create an accident.
June 1, 2009 at 7:40 am
“I am not going around and falsely representing Christianity”
But what you are doing is claiming that you have some monopoly on truth. Your version of Christianity is superior to Be’s, you say. So you are dictating the terms of reality – because you say it is true or not.
Well, what about the pope? What about other pastors and priests in other denominations? If they don’t agree with you on something are they practicing the ‘wrong’ Christianity too? And how am I to know which one is the ‘real’ Christianity? So I just believe you, random guy on the internet, that what you say about God is true and what Be says about his own personal spiritual quest is wrong?
Taking a lot on yourself there.
June 1, 2009 at 7:44 am
Will – Believe me. I will be your random Guy on the internet. Send me a tithe of 35% because I am more true than the Pope. I will really appreciate it too. I will not waste it on lavish churches either. I will make sure I always have an internet connect, so I can stay in touch with my faithful.
June 1, 2009 at 11:31 am
This view on morality really frustrates me.
How can it be considered morality when you’re doing it for selfish reasons: avoiding punishment and receiving rewards.
Isn’t it more moral if people do the right thing without consideration that there actions will be rewarded in any way and that, even with no threat of punishment, people still treat each other the way they should?
People do this all the time. Atheists account for a significant percentage of, not just the world, but America specifically. If it was true what you were saying, that we have no morality, then there would be absolute chaos.
Atheism isn’t an excuse to act licentiously. The only people who seem to think so are theists.
June 1, 2009 at 6:35 am |
I would like to address the bald statement that without God, there is no morality.
In the years when I was transiting from believing to reasoning, one basic question I asked was, without faith, what would be the basis of morality.
I looked to my non-christian friends, and they were as moral as anybody else.
I looked at my atheists friends, and they were as moral as most christians.
I asked one, what is the basis of her morality.
She looked at me as if I were an idiot.
One of the many things Christians (and yes, only Christians, because none of the other religions have the chutzpah to think that they have a monopoly on morality or moral concepts) cannot seem to understand is why anyone would want to be good if there is no God to require goodness and to reward goodness (eternal life).
It takes only faith to be a Christian.
It takes courage and wisdom to be a “good” atheist. To realise that religion serves a social function and to understand the purpose of that function and to realise that the need to be “good” can be understood without reference to heaven and hell requires intelligence, insight, and a sense of the larger picture.
To choose to be good while giving up the concept of heaven requires courage that most Christians do not have.
June 1, 2009 at 12:50 pm |
As a God fearing Christian myself I just wanted to say “WELL SAID CAMERON!”
May 31, 2009 at 1:56 pm |
And your wife should show your daughter Col 1 and Rev 19 to show that Christ is infinitely superior to Superman, and do so with a nice and calm voice.
Further, Christ historically lived, died and rose. Superman was invented in the last century.
You’re not entirely un-biased and nautral here either Sir. You are now having the dangerous tendencies of strawmanning Christianity to your children since you don’t like it now. This is equally unfair to them especially if Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life as He claimed.
You should refrain from doing what your doing on this blog with your children and not falsely represent Scripture to your children, but let your children and your wife dive into these questions considering all of what Christians have to say, not just let your gross misrepresentations of Christianity do the talking. You and your wife should talk it over about the best way to handle this with your children. There may need to be more books cracked by all of you.
Otherwise good luck with your marriage when you and your wife begin to play good mom/bad dad or good dad/bad mom when it comes to which is the correct worldview.
May 31, 2009 at 2:38 pm |
Further, Christ historically lived, died and rose. Superman was invented in the last century.
True, it is a lot easier to prove superman is make believe than it is to prove Jesus is make believe. We actually know who wrote superman. There’s a little more evidence that Jesus may have existed, but not much…
“Again, you show how you were never a genuine believer becasue you lack this type of Biblical discernement, yet you try to position yourself as having some genuine exit from Christianity given your supposed long past with it.”
Nice work, you combine insulting someone’s intelligence while elevating your superior level of discernment in one fell swoop. ‘Cause you know more than, right? BS, you don’t know a thing about this person and what kind of Christian they were. But you are showing what kind of Christian you are…
May 31, 2009 at 2:45 pm |
His advice sounds a lot like Pat Robertson. Not exactly someone I would model my life after:
Check out this video::
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/06/according-to-pat-robertson-my-christian-wife-and-i-should-get-a-divorce/
May 31, 2009 at 3:03 pm |
Historically Jesus never lived. There is no evidence of him, during the time on earth he was supposed to be. Christians have no evidence he existed. Until you provide it, you are blatantly lying to further the lie of Christ.
http://noguyinthesky.blogspot.com/2009/04/where-is-beef-jesus-is-missing.html
May 31, 2009 at 8:50 pm
atimetorend, I’m confident in my personal remarks of him based on Scripture. One cannot lose their salvation, because they did not initiate it, God does. He saves whom He wills. We’re all at His mercy. Second, I’m not insulting his intelligence, but his strawmen of the nature of God and men which is totally un-biblical. What was he doing for all those decades of “being a Christian”. I would be more convinced that he was reading superman comics, not Scripture!
the beattitude, instead of likening me to people whom I have huge political and theological differences from, would you mind responding to any of my statements rationally and intelligently? Doesn’t sound like you’re really after the truth by judge dodging everything and being all “la di da, this is fun”.
No Guy in the Sky, we have the epistles written by the Apostles which were contemporaneous sources. According to Bart Erhman (a non-Christian scholar), there are more transmissions of the synoptic gospels then any other writing in history. There are roughly 4,000. The earliest we have of Alexander the Great is 400 years after he existed! Your denial is probably really just a fulfillment of Rom 1:18-20 and 8:6-8.
May 31, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Cameron – What part of historical document, dont you get? There is none. Anything written 300bc can not document Jesus. Are you sleeping? If the fictitious story of Jesus ends at 1ad, how can a document from 300bc talk about Jesus? It can not. THere are none. Do you understand none. Let me clue you in Romans spouter. There are none because he is totally made up. He is fashioned after Horus.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm
His 3 day nap/resurrection is fashioned after Inanna. Look her up.
http://noguyinthesky.blogspot.com/2009/04/easter-bunny-brings-us-colored-eggs-and.html
Everything in the bible was written after Jesus died by decades or more. Like 6 decades. Imagine the most important(fictitious) person in history, and not one person wrote a sentence about him. That is Bart Erhman, and many others. Get your shit straight. Learn your fairy tale.
May 31, 2009 at 9:23 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/ancient-mythic-origins-of_b_185455.html
May 31, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Cameron-
I only respond to people that don’t arrogantly talk down to me like I’m an idiot. I am after truth, just not your archaic version of truth.
May 31, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Ya have not answer me Cameron. Waiting. . . . . . .
May 31, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Cameron – Since your are CONFUSED on Bart Erhmans thoughts. This is a lecture of his.
http://christianpwnage101.blogspot.com/2008/01/lecture-series-bart-ehrman-misquoting.html
May 31, 2009 at 10:55 pm
No guy in the sky, I have not answered you on what exactly?
I am not confused on Erhman’s remarks. He made them in the debate with James R. White! I know he doesn’t trust the synoptic gospels to be historically reliable, but his arguments for that can be equally applied to every historical document in history. He is really just a radical skeptic (and picks on the gospels on every media avenue he can) and a scholarly snob (IMHO). Check out the debate between him and White. He barely addresses White’s arguments because he actually never even took 2 seconds to study his opponents position! He even admitted that.
the beattitude, I didn’t talk down to you arrogantly. That’s your filter. I have mostly been upset that you misrepresent the nature of God and man as consistently presented in Scripture. That Sir, is not being after the truth as you tend to claim you are.
June 1, 2009 at 5:22 am
Cameron – That is not available. If you want to give me a link to it. Please do. I am sure you have not heard correctly. He clearly states there are none in his others. In his debate with Lane he was wishy washy at points and too nice. Hitchens would have trounced Lane, and not been nice. I would have trounced him too. Child like god arguments. So please link me.
Now where is any proof of any document of Jesus? The bible printed in 2008 is all you need? There are none. The bible has been proven fake. The whole fucking thing. It is one big made up story. Period. That is a truth.
June 1, 2009 at 6:57 am |
Yes we know Jerry Seigel wrote about Superman. He actually met the real Superman in 1930, which is were the idea came from. Superman saved him from certain death. Superman made him promise to keep him a secret and write him as fiction, so he could do more good for humanity. Superman unlike in the movies has a pad beneath Antarctica. Exactly the opposite of the movies to help hide it. Most UFO sitings tracked by the Air Force and NASA is him blasting around the planet. Superman is real! Tell your daughter. They can not prove he is not real. He just likes to remain anonymous.
June 1, 2009 at 4:01 am |
“And your wife should show your daughter Col 1 and Rev 19 to show that Christ is infinitely superior to Superman, and do so with a nice and calm voice.”
I have a book that says the opposite.
Who’s right?
June 1, 2009 at 10:42 am |
For centuries people have known what was to be canonized as Scripture by testimony of the Holy Spirit. This is called 2nd canon. This is why countless people believed the Bible is the inspired word of God (Yahweh). This is what is primarily required for one to believe that Scripture God’s revelation to us. Secondly, we can compare this book of divine revelation to any other book and see which one holds water philosophically, historically, scientifically, etc.
May 31, 2009 at 2:10 pm |
Speaking as someone who does not have children, but who was raised in a Catholic turned Atheist household, I would say that if your daughter is asking questions now, this is the time to be honest with her about your views and for your wife to be honest about hers and let the child decide which one she wants to believe in. Kids are smarter about this stuff than people give them credit for. They don’t have that fear yet about asking tough questions.
I say let her ask and respect her decision. She needs to be raised to be an independent thinker – whether that takes her to religion or not should be her choice, not that of her parents.
May 31, 2009 at 2:13 pm |
I honestly don’t know what you should say, specifically. I do know that when I was a kid and had questions, I would have loved to have a person in my life who supported my curiosity. By support my curiosity, I don’t mean give me answers like, “Sometimes God says no to our prayers.” (Something I heard often).
May 31, 2009 at 2:21 pm |
“The last thing I want to do is force my children to agree with me. I want them to see the world with open eyes and decide for themselves what they believe.”
I’m in much the same position, recently left the faith, young children, Christian wife. Your quote I copies above sounds like it is just right. It doesn’t seem right to replace Christianity which tells people what they have to believe with agnosticism or atheism or anything else that just tells your kids what to believe. Good luck, it is challenging, but it is so liberating to be able to raise children to think for themselves rather than feel pressured to indoctrinate them.
I have found the article linked below very helpful in this. It is good to find ways to teach kids to think for themselves without coming across as trying to undermine your spouse’s faith. I use a lot of, “What do you think?” questions rather than telling them what to think.
http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=758
May 31, 2009 at 2:46 pm |
A Christian might respond to your daughter by saying that God created the universe and everything in it. Superman, for all his powers, could not do this. Your wife is correct – Superman does not exist – but I agree it might be hard to describe the reality of God to a child.
Your daughter questions God’s existence because he did not ease her pain. I hope she will eventually learn that pain is part of human existance and God is not like a pill to be taken only when it hurts. Why is suffering part of human experience? Because we are captive to sin. Jesus Christ redeemed our sin in God’s eyes, but we are both sinner and saint at the same time. This is not an easy concept for rational adults, much less 5 year-olds, but I think it represents reality.
My wife and I have raised 4 kids and we could not have done this alone – the church was essential and at least one of our kids could have really turned out badly were not for the support our church community. Keep this in mind as you explore your new freedom – what will it cost you?
Even at 5 years old your daughter can probably sense the tension between you and your wife on this subject. It is possible she is pushing buttons here. I am not being critical – any kid is capable of almost anything – but you may want to have a talk with your wife on how to deal with this when it comes up again.
Best Regards…
May 31, 2009 at 10:08 pm |
My daughter is completely unaware. We haven’t openly discussed in front of her and there is absolutely no tension between my wife and I. My daughter was simply being a 5 year old that doesn’t understand the mystery that is an invisible god.
My “new freedom” won’t cost me anything. I am the same man and I still love my family very much. If a god is waiting up in heaven to nuke me for doubting irrational and archaic theology, how can you call him a loving god?
May 31, 2009 at 2:56 pm |
When your wife said this.
My wife immediately said, “No he isn’t! Superman is just pretend and God is real.”
You should have hip checked her into the shrubs. If she feels it is OK for her to evangelize, then she should be OK when you come right behind her and say “Honey Superman is better! He saves people and doesnt commit genocide like God. You know that God has killed millions of people according to his own words?” ” Then say “Do not worry, God is pretend. He was made up to comfort adults that can not deal with life.” Then smirk at poor deluded wife.
May 31, 2009 at 3:07 pm |
My wife is struggling heavily with doubt. She is just too afraid to admit she doesn’t believe it.
I said something pretty similar to what you suggested. I said, “Superman isn’t invisible and actually helps people in trouble. My vote is with Superman too.” I’m pretty sarcastic and fortunately my wife usually appreciates it. She isn’t a scary fundie like this post makes it sound.
May 31, 2009 at 9:50 pm |
Just curious. You now believe God is not real, but Superman “actually helps people in trouble.”
Do you see any contradiction in this?
May 31, 2009 at 10:12 pm |
No contradiction. Superman fictitiously helps people, God neither fictitiously or literally helps anyone in peril.
May 31, 2009 at 3:18 pm |
Hahaha! Cute!
But God is not responsible for genocides. People are…
May 31, 2009 at 3:25 pm |
Haha – God commanded his people to slaughter every man woman and child. Oh ya animals too of many cities. Remember the word of dog is true. Noah ring a bell? He is just as guilty as the mob boss who places a hit on a snitch.
May 31, 2009 at 3:28 pm |
Let’s not forget the flood. The biggest genocide in history. Or how god wiped out Egyptians and ordered the slaughter of nations to keep his “chosen people” safe from the unclean and unchosen people.
I had a post a while back that compared the biblical genocide of God to make a perfect chosen Jewish race to the genocide of Hitler to make a perfect German race.
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/03/09/if-genocide-is-evil-how-is-god-any-different-than-adolf-hitler/
May 31, 2009 at 9:59 pm |
Maybe this isn’t the most important part of the Bible.
June 1, 2009 at 7:42 am
Or maybe it’s just NOT about the Bible…. What if God’s one thing, the story invented about him in a bool was another?
May 31, 2009 at 3:21 pm |
I truly feel for you. My husband and I were lifelong Christians, and within the past year have come to question Christianity. Luckily, we are on the same journey and agree with each other on most things. We have three small children, and my oldest daughter just graduated kindergarten from a very fundamentalist Christian school.
We too are struggling with balancing what our kids have already learned, with reason and logic and our current opinions on religion. I agree with those who have stated to allow the kids to think for themselves, and answer their own questions. Perhaps you and your wife could discuss how to answer those types of questions, for example maybe your wife could say something more like this is what I think, and the same with you. And then reinforce that sometimes adults disagree, but that has nothing to do with how much you both love them. I wish you and your family well
)
To Cameron, I found your post saddened me and reinforced many atheist arguments. You made judgments that in no way you could know. It is so easy for Christians to say Oh they never truly were a Christian anyway, rather than to understand the many logical reasons why people walk away from their faith.
Reason exists perfectly fine without Jesus. So does morality. I want to be a moral person for that reason alone, not because some Deity tells me so. Your statements on morality seem to indicate that you would not be a moral person if your God did not tell you to do so, what does that say about you?
May 31, 2009 at 3:26 pm |
” Who is on the Lord’s side? …. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor … and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. Exodus 32:26-28″
Excerpt taken from this post…http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2009/05/gods-11th-killing-who-is-on-lords-side.html
May 31, 2009 at 9:58 pm |
And yet the Bible also says God gave his only son to die for us.
Why would God do this if he was such a killer?
May 31, 2009 at 10:08 pm |
If a fictitious god in a story, gives up his only son to torture. Was there really a sacrifice? God is a butcher that behaves like a sadistic jealous maniac in his own words. So if it is true, like you and many believe(do not worry. It is not). Then god is closer to a demon than a saint. Since it is all made up, you are just wasting your life following a demon god.
May 31, 2009 at 10:20 pm |
God isn’t a killer because the Bible says he impregnated a woman with himself so he could be born as a human to become a bloody human sacrifice to himself. This horrific bloody act was necessary to save you from your sin.
How could that God be a killer? Because the Bible says he is.
May 31, 2009 at 11:39 pm
But I see that as a saving action.
Maybe sacrifice is the only way humans can relate to the gravity of the situation – our salvation requires this bloody act because we would not noitice it otherwise.
June 1, 2009 at 10:46 am
God does kill, but He is not a murderer. God kills as an act of justice, not an act of selfish pride. Scripture teaches that God is holy and people are un-holy, thus every person is deseving of death because all are lawlessness Rom 3. Even human beings have the death penalty for wrong doing. How much more God, when the offense of sin is infinite against Him. This is Christianity 101 and thebeattitude has never seemed to grasp this in all of his “genuine 30 years of Christianity”.
May 31, 2009 at 4:48 pm |
Well done theBEattitude – this is a lovely blog and I look forward to reading more. I took exit from a Buddhist organisation and faith a few years back and, despite the struggle and suffering that caused I’ve not looked back.
If I were you (and I’m not, but you did ask) I’d teach your daughter only what can be said clearly, truthfully and objectively.
Jesus probably lived. No bigee.
Jesus probably was crucified. As were many at that time.
Jesus probably didn’t rise from the dead. No one else has risen from the dead and it’s an extraordinary claim to say this one guy did.
From my readings of Christianity Jesus is said to have done a lot of things that fulfilled prophecy. And people must think that’s awesome. But when the prophecy is in the first 1/2 of the book, and the fulfilment is in the second 1/2 half it’s not really a credible argument.
Show me something OUTSIDE the Bible and I’ll be prepared to be amazed, but the Jesus story, the greatest story ever told, is just the story that survived.
May 31, 2009 at 5:01 pm |
Holy Inappropriate – “Jesus probably lived. No bigee.”
Hmmm. There is no proof he lived. Not one document from what would be his time. He is completely fictitious. He is not noted as crucified. Another, completely different Jesus was crucified in 2AD. There is again … No evidence. Jesus rising from them dead was obviously a stolen, plagiarized story from other religions.
I do not like to give Christians any leniency in what is known to be true. At best Jesus is a fictional character in an ancient books, written by desert dudes.
I do like your show me the money line.
May 31, 2009 at 9:55 pm |
Well the New Testament says there was a Jesus that really existed.
But I suppose you will dismiss this as evidence.
Why? Were the people writing the NT lying? Involved in a great conspiracy to fool everyone?
Did the Trojan War happen? There are no written records and scant archeology.
May 31, 2009 at 10:00 pm |
Yes, it is very likely they were lying. It is even more likely that they were not eyewitnesses and never even met Jesus. Most of the New Testament was written by Paul who admitted to never meeting Jesus before his death.
The four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are examples of books which did not carry the names of their actual authors. The present names were assigned long after these four books were written. And—in spite of what the Gospel authors say—biblical scholars are now almost unanimously agreed that none of the Gospel authors was either an actual disciple of Jesus or even an eyewitness to his ministry.
May 31, 2009 at 11:25 pm
The Gospel of Mark is thought by scholars to be the recollections of Peter, as recorded by his companion John Mark. The Gospel of Luke was probably written by Paul’s companion Luke because the second half of the volume – the book of Acts – has passages of an eyewitness to some of Paul’s travels.
Does this constitute reliable proof? Maybe, maybe not. If God wants us to believe – as a matter of faith – then there must be the possiblity of doubt.
Just because the Bible does not contain logic or detailed proofs, does this mean it does not contain truth?
Is truth only available in rational form?
I would submit that God does not come to us by rational logic or reason, but only through faith.
Some Christians believe that the because the Bible contains truth, it must be a rational document and believed literally.
But this is not true of all Christians.
May 31, 2009 at 10:18 pm |
What part of new testament was written in Jesus’s time? None. So the bible can not be evidence. The bible just writes about his time, 60+years after the fact. Do you understand that? Comprehend no documents from 1AD mentioning, the Greatest fictional character of all time being crucified, resurrecting, living, casting evil demons, cursing fig trees, anything? There is none. All written after the fact. Funny huh? Documents of Mayors, Governors, Generals etc. The Big Messiah, God’s only son, pretty boy on a cross. Nothing! Zip, Zero, absolutely nothing.
If you think there is one. Please bring it forward to a credible college. Bible college is not a real college. Sorry. Only intellectual college, to get it verified. I am sure the church would be interested in it too. Since they know they have …N O T H I N G !!!
Please leave a link here too. Thanks
May 31, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Jesus was not a big presence in first century Judea. He was from a rural area and considered a subversive and executed by the Romans – as were hundreds of others. There is no reason for his death to have made any news in that time.
What we know about him comes from his followers. How does that make it incorrect or certain that Jesus never existed?
May 31, 2009 at 11:35 pm
@Paul – Because passing time corrupts the truth.
May 31, 2009 at 5:52 pm |
When my daughter was born I had a (non-Christian) religion; by the time she was ten I no longer did. However, ours was a house filled with books from and about a variety of religions, and questions were always encouraged. “Some people believe…” prefaced a lot of conversations, especially after a visit to church with her cousins or friends.
The best we can do as parents is be honest; even 5 is not too young to understand, “Some people believe…” and “…but you get to decide for yourself when you’re an adult.” It certainly balances out the pressure kids get from their religious peers. My daughter was FOUR when she came to tell me that we were going to Hell for not being “washed in the blood of Jesus,” like her well-indoctrinated and “saved” 6-year-old cousin. I told her that she didn’t have to worry about it because Hell’s just a story made up to scare some people into being good, the same way some parents tell kids that the boogieman will get them if they misbehave. Nightmares averted, complex theological concepts avoided.
My daughter’s 18 now, and atheist. Her cousin’s 20, a single mom with 2 kids from 2 fathers, the oldest of whom is 4. Hmmm, that strict Christian upbringing sure didn’t work out so well for HER, if you ask me.
Sounds like you’ve got a smart kid, which can be equal measures curse & blessing depending upon how willing you are to answer questions, and how honestly. They certainly test our mettle… best of luck
May 31, 2009 at 7:17 pm |
She is very smart. She tests my mettle every day. Fortunately I enjoy it.
June 1, 2009 at 12:02 pm |
She sounds like every parent’s dream/nightmare.
May 31, 2009 at 6:47 pm |
if you truly believe that you had a personal relationship with Christ then you would not say he is a God of wrath and vegance and destuction. I am sorry that you have felt unworthy, or not good enough to be in God’s presence, I tell you the truth when I say that the God of the bible longs for nothing more tha a relationship with you. He is the creator of the heavens and earth and he created the farthest reaches of the universe just to so that if you let him, he can venture in to the recesses of your soul. I know the God of the bible is real and alive today. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He has given me life overflowing in abundance and I follow him not because I have too but because it gives me pure joy to do so. I too, once walked away from Jesus, and nothing happened, no lightning bolt, no earhquake, the world went on as usual. It wasn’t until I realized it wasn’t a want for Jesus to be my Savior it was a need. Today I want to know him more fully and the more I know the more I believe. Jesus promises to be with me always even to the end of the age and he has been and I believe will be. For me it’s not just in the good times that I see God work in my life most often but in the hard times. When he dances in the fire with me. I pray that you come back to your faith. That you realize God is waiting to welcome you home. I realize that it is your choice whether or not to believe in Jesus, to accept him as your Lord and Savior but I know for me, he has truly rescued me from a life of darkness and pain and filled my life with love, grace, and understanding. God says that those who want to hear will hear and those who want to see will see but if you seek for the truth you will find it and it will truly set you free. May God Bless you and and your family and you will continue to be in my prayers.
May 31, 2009 at 7:02 pm |
Tiff – Have you ever read the bible? I doubt you have. If you did, you would not be spreading the lies of an EVIL JEALOUS GOD. Unless you are an idiot that gives him excuses for all his atrocities.
June 1, 2009 at 11:17 am |
This is precisely why I have started to question my currently held beliefs. The God I believe I have had a personal relationship with is kind, patient, loving, and merciful. His actions written in the OT just don’t line up with what I know about Him. My personal experiences show that what is written about Him in the OT is in contradiction with His nature as I know Him now. I know the bible states God is the same and he unchanging. This is causing cognitive dissonance, and I haven’t heard any good teaching to explain God’s actions in the OT and remove the dissonant elements in my mind.
If you know of any resources I can look into, I’d surely appreciate it. I’m coming to see that the simple explanation for these events is that God doesn’t actually exist and he is made up in the minds of humans throughout the millenia. This “made up” portion being an actual psychological property of humans and other animals which is a manifestation of one believing something exists when it actually doesn’t. I forget what this property is called, but I believe it explains the feeling of being watched.
June 1, 2009 at 4:12 pm |
The property is called “delusion”.
May 31, 2009 at 6:50 pm |
When parents have opposing points of view, it causes confusion for the children and they will have no choice but to choose sides. If the child believes in God because she was taught to, then to try to take that away from her can be seen as being mean. Alternatively, if the child is more swayed by your more rational argument, then she will see her mother as irrational. Neither of these scenarios is ideal.
I believe that the best way to handle the situation is for you and your wife to come to an agreement about how best to handle the situation AS PARENTS. These are fundamental differences of belief which have the potential to destroy a marriage, but ultimately, only the two of you can solve this. If you don’t work it out between yourselves, the questions from the children will just continue.
“Why doesn’t daddy come to church with us?”, “Why do I have to go to church when I don’t want to?”, etc. These are the questions that the church does not want its flock to be asking. In fact, the church doesn’t want its flock asking any questions, because after all, you can’t question faith.
Sit down with your wife without the children. Set some ground rules for the discussion that is to follow, but make it clear up front that the ultimate goal is to work out how to best handle the situation for the children. Assuming that you won’t revert to life as a “good Christian” (I’m sure there’s no coming back after some of the posts you’ve made at your blog
), is your wife steadfast in her faith? You’ve poured out here the reasons for your decision, maybe she should justify her grounds (but don’t argue with her, just listen to her). Has she read every one of your articles? If not, maybe she should to get to know and understand you better. Lord knows you’ve read and heard all the stuff that is supposed to keep you Christian.
Whatever you do, don’t stop communicating – and that doesn’t mean arguing. Good luck. I’d love to know how it works out in the end.
May 31, 2009 at 6:54 pm |
Just to comment on the one above who said there is no proof that Christ existed,besides the bible several theologist and historians in Jesus’ time recorded Knowing or meeting Jesus. Do your research or read it from some one who has done it for you, look up case for Christ.
May 31, 2009 at 7:00 pm |
Hey the bible….all of it was written decades after he was supposedly D E A D . Look it up. Learn the history of your own bible.
http://noguyinthesky.blogspot.com/2009/04/where-is-beef-jesus-is-missing.html
May 31, 2009 at 7:04 pm |
I dont want to come off sounding rude, so forgive me but I think that you need to read the bible and really get your stories straight and notice:
Jesus did live, it has been proven.
Jesus did die, it has been proven.
Jesus rose from the dead is the only one who has and can and that is what makes him God. This is proven in my life every single day in a personal and real way. He is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through him.
Once again I send you love and prayer and hope that one day you will want the hope I have.
May 31, 2009 at 7:15 pm |
Tiff – Your an idiot. Your bible is made up of stories written by men. After the fact, and they still couldn’t get their stories straight. These are gods words? Are you kidding? The bible is FULL of errors. Full! No the bible is not the documentation history gives. There is documentation for ALL historical figures from that time … except …
Jesus. Did you even click on my link? No. You need to ask Jesus why you are so willing to stay so ignorant. Wghen he doesn’t answer, then learn the truth.
May 31, 2009 at 7:12 pm |
true but if you knew the culture then most scripture was memorized verbatim and then recited. Very selcom was it written.
although we do get first hand witness accounts like the gospel of Mathew and John as well as acts, phillipeans, collosians, thessalonians, galations, ephesians, revalations, and more actually written in the lives of John, and Paul (aka saul of Tarus) as well as matthew and the others so most of the new testimet was written while the followers of Jesus, his very own deciples were living. So they were able to give an acurate recount of all that had happened.
May 31, 2009 at 7:13 pm |
again I believe it would be worth your while to go and rent the case for Christ.
May 31, 2009 at 7:17 pm |
For the records I have listened to hundreds of hours of video. Read hundreds of articles on the bible. Maybe you need to stop reading Christian propaganda.
May 31, 2009 at 7:17 pm |
bottom line, its your choice and I cant make it for you. I know God is real and loves you and died so you wouln’t have to and is waiting to have a personal relationship with you. I am no longer afriad of what tomorrow holds for I know who holds tomorrow. May you find what you are searching for, and know true peace.
May 31, 2009 at 7:19 pm |
How long would I have too wait for something that only exists in the pathetic minds of Christians? If a tree does not exist, and falls in an imaginary forest. Does the tree make any noise?
May 31, 2009 at 7:28 pm |
Childlike faith refers to their faith in you: the parent. Even horrible parents will still have children that have faith in them.
May 31, 2009 at 9:01 pm |
theBEattitude-
I applaud your efforts to question the indoctrination that your parents and community gave you when you were young. As for the questions your daughter is asking, you should answer them as truthfully and completely as you think she can handle.
As for your wife, remember that she’s struggling against her reason. It’s really hard work to make excuses for why God isn’t living up to the advertising. She’ll have to either continue to contort her understanding of the universe, or give up and join the rational.
There are plenty of people commenting here that are trying to scold you for questioning your previous beliefs. Read them carefully and consider whether they are trying to help you or whether they’re trying to bolster their own shaky beliefs.
Ultimately, there are good ideas and bad ideas. Bad ideas should be exposed and criticized, no matter where they come from.
As for your daughter’s assertion, I think it’s awesome. Superman represents moral strength, truth and justice with compassion. The God of the old testament is at best morally dubious, metes out punishment to entire cities, and advocates justice that modern humans find appalling.
To all the bible-thumping Christians above, I truly hope you reconsider where you got your information. Is it from a book? Who wrote the book? And when? What makes that book any more valid than Harry Potter? Did your parents tell you about God? Why did they believe in God? Was it because their parents did?
Finally, ask yourself the following question: “Why is the god I believe in any more valid than the Greek god Zeus?” Once you understand the reasons, you’ll have a good deal more to think about.
Good luck all.
May 31, 2009 at 9:46 pm |
Thanks Nick–
That is exactly how I’m handling it. My wife is having a hard time with it, but she agrees with me on every one of my reasons for no longer believing. The fear of god and the fear of death keeps her from admitting she doesn’t believe.
Don’t worry about the evangelists here talking down to me like I’m and idiot that was misled by men and defunct dogma. This wasn’t something that I decided on a whim. There is nothing they are going to tell me I haven’t heard a thousand times.
May 31, 2009 at 10:43 pm |
Nick, is Zeus in time or outside of time? Is he eternal, immutable, and all good? The Greek gods were never said to be outside of time but inside of time. Scripture clearly teaches that God is outside of time, however. So there you have it. I’ve questioned why the Triune God of Scripture is more superior than Zeus.
Also Nick, the NT presents Jesus Christ as the one who dishes out more wrath then even the God of the OT. Have you read Revelation chapter 19-21?
Lastly, “that book” happens to be God’s own inspired word and self revelation to us. Does Harry Potter have fulfilled prophecies and count as a historical source? Does it contain a man who was fully human and fully divine who said he was the way the truth and the life and that there is no way to the Father but through him?
the beattitute, your wife fears god and death? Is she a Muslim? Scripture says that in John 17:3 “this is life: that they would know you the one true God”. Scripture also says “o death where is your sting?!” 1 Cor 15 lays out our great hope in the Resurrection from the dead. Rom 8 says “therefore there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.”
I have seen you offer nothing against Scriptural Christianity.
May 31, 2009 at 10:50 pm |
Yes my wife fears death. Belief in Jesus and an afterlife in heaven gives her comfort much like it does for you.
And yes she fears how God would judge and condemn her to hell if she stops believing. Again very much like you do.
May 31, 2009 at 11:05 pm |
For one, please don’t assume what I believe before asking me. In fact, I have already stated on this thread that one cannot lose their genuine salvation. Thus, if your wife is genuinely saved, then she need to fear anything. Many Christians struggle with whether they will lose their salvation. But the question is actually not if we can lose our salvation, but if Christ can lose us!
John 6:39 says that Christ will lose none whom the Father has given Him but will raise them up on the last day.
Further, Rom 8 asks the rhetorical question, “who is he that condemns, it is God who justifies”. Your wife, nor any true believer, can be forever forgiven of their sins, and then not be. That doesn’t make any sense and is not Biblical. But that’s what justification is. Rom 8 also says that nothing can separate us from the love of God, even nothing in creation. Your wife is part of creation, thus can’t be separated from the love of the God of Scripture.
As Martin Luther said, “the gospel is a table for sinners and sinners only.” No matter how great our sin is, Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior.
May 31, 2009 at 11:08 pm |
I’m out of line? But it is somehow okay for you to assume you know what I believed when I was a Christian.
That reminds me. I need to post this week’s “Wisdom from Martin Luther”. He was such a wise man.
May 31, 2009 at 11:08 pm |
Harry Potter does have fulfilled prophecies, have you read it? Harry is also a Christ figure, he had to sacrifice himself so that the rest of the wizarding world could be saved from Voldemort. Who is to say that the book could not be historical? The author, she says it is fiction. So the authors of the Bible say their book is truth. We have to take both of their words for it. If Moses can part the red sea with his staff, why can’t Dumbeldore perform magic with his wand?
The Bible also says these things…
Leviticus 25:17 … but thou shalt fear thy God for I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me…
Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God…
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever:
I think I see some contradictions here.
May 31, 2009 at 11:13 pm |
I am going off of the beliefs you posted. In particular your 20 reasons for denying God. In point 1 you said that God was not holy for being a God of wrath. This is not what Scripture teaches. In point 2 you assumed that men, women, and children are innocent. Again, this is not what Scripture teaches. I’m sorry if I got uptight and seemed in your face with my remarks though.
May 31, 2009 at 11:19 pm |
Priscilla, we know Harry Potter is fiction for the reason you stated. That tackles that question. Your criterion for knowing what should be considered a historical document applies to all history, not just Scripture. You’ve only created a problem for all of history, not Scripture alone.
And as far as fearing the Lord goes, Prov 1:7 says that we are to fear God to have knowledge (where the context if knowledge for living rightly) and that fools despise wisdom and discipline. But this is so true! To live carelessly of God’s ways is to make bad decisions and be unhappy. Fearing the Lord is for right living, not salvation. That is only through justification by faith that God graciously grants to countless (Rom 3,4; Eph 2:8).
May 31, 2009 at 11:30 pm |
So Cameron, your one verse clears up the FOUR contradictions that Priscilla posted? Why do you choose to simply ignore those parts of the Bible that are shown to be contradictory, immoral, and false? Are you saying the Bible is not infallible?
If it isn’t infallible, why on Earth would anyone run their lives by it?
May 31, 2009 at 11:39 pm |
I agree that the foundation for Christianity, and religion in general is faith. If that is enough for people, then that is their decision. The bible puts it beautifully, Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
But put more plainly, faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. In any other context but religion, faith in something you can not prove is foolish. “The bible tells me so” is just not enough for some people, and I think Christians should respect that. Just my opinions anyway.
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
Thomas Jefferson
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
Thomas Paine
There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice.
Thomas Paine
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
Thomas Paine
June 1, 2009 at 12:11 am |
paralleldivergence, Christians have interpreted Scripture with Scripture for centuries. Are you suggesting we all of a sudden change and interpret it with surface level examination which your supposed contradictions come from?
Are any of those contexts in regard to fearing the Lord referring to obtaining salvation or justification? Uhhh, no. Many of them are in reference to living rightly before God which is a good and enjoyable thing, hence why the Psalmist says that He loves God’s law.
I believe there are seeming contradictions, but there are not actual contradictions such as A = non-A. And where is your standard of real morality where things are really right and really wrong which we ought to be really accountable to come from? God?
Priscilla, the Christian faith is not based on rationality alone, nor is it irrational. Rather it is trans-rational, Romans 10:5-8. In fact, even science requires faith, because nothing can be known with 100% certainty. We know things in propensities or likelihoods e.g. something is 50%, 75%, 90% true, etc. Faith fills in the gaps of the uncertainty. The question is not whether one has faith, but rather one’s faith makes the most sense of reality. What is your worldview? What is ultimate reality to you? Let’s put it to the test.
June 1, 2009 at 12:24 am |
@Cameron, so “there are not actual contradictions such as A = non-A”?
Exodus 20:5 “For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9) (let’s call this A)
OK, so I’ll suffer for my father’s wrong-doings. But hang on:
Ezekiel 18:20 “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.” (let’s call this non-A)
Here’s just a few more A’s and non-A’s…
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra
The book is a set of stories written by multiple men over a long period of time. It is not a perfect book. It’s not even a good story book.
June 1, 2009 at 11:00 am |
paralleldivergence, I think your head has split open like your picture and your brain has fallen out.
Please take the time to read passages in CONTEXT before you get your panties in a bundle and throw an apparent contradiction at me. The very next verse right after Ex 20:5 is verse 6 which says “but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.” So God doesn’t determine the suffering of the sons only according to their fathers rebellion, but also takes into account their own willingness to follow His commands as a merciful God would. Eze 18 actually expounds on this. Further, the word “visiting” in verse 5, where it says “he visits the iniquity on the fathers of the children” means to “pay attention to”, not to out right punish.
and here is a site for your surface level contradictions as well:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm
June 1, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Cameron, I think the majority of commenters here would suggest you are the one with brain problems.
June 4, 2009 at 10:39 am
This commenter would suggest that Cameron makes her have bile rise up in her throat and have an intense need to vomit.
June 10, 2009 at 12:50 am
I welcome the majority to think so and I wear it like a badge of honor.
June 1, 2009 at 12:55 am |
Science does NOT require faith. What science requires is PROOF, EVIDENCE.
“nothing can be known with 100% certainty.” is an absolute statement. Thus, by your logic, we can NOT be 100% certain that your statement “nothing can be known with 100% certainty” is true. Which proves that SOME things can be known to be 100% true.
I submit the following as proof: 1 + 1 = 2. This is absolutely TRUE 100% of the time with 100% certainty.
Faith need not fill the gaps of uncertainty. I submit that ‘questions’ should fill the gaps of uncertainty. For it is the thirst for knowledge and understanding that distinguishes us from mere animals. And only by asking more questions, and searching for answers, proof, and evidence can we move forward.
June 1, 2009 at 12:57 am |
“Which proves that SOME things can be known to be 100% true.”
correction “Which suggests that SOME things can be known to be 100% true.”
June 1, 2009 at 10:33 am |
And if I say everything can be known with absolute certainty, I wouldn’t be absolute about that. There is a middle ground. Most of science is done with inference. I’ve talked with many scientists and atheists who agree, so I’m not just going to take your word for it.
And to get to the number 1 you have to account for immaterial meanings, such as the meaning of 1. What worldview do you have which accounts for abstract and absolute meanings?
Questions are uncertainties. And it was Deists such as Newton, Galileo, and Copernicus who thirsted for knowledge in profound ways.
June 1, 2009 at 11:53 am
Are you arguing that 1 + 1 does not equal 2?
Whether or not Newton, Galileo, or Copernicus were deists does prove anything about the need for faith in science. It is entirely besides the point. I can also easily point out scientists that are atheists ( Richard Dawkins anybody? ).
I also submit that there are far more atheist scientists than deist scientist. Does this prove that science does not require faith?
Nobody denies the fact that much of science involves inference, ie. theories and hypotheses. It is not considered scientific law until it can be proved. And if new evidence shows that our understanding of science is incorrect, scientists gladly admit it and make the appropriate corrections.
June 10, 2009 at 1:01 am
No I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing for how you get to the abstract absolute meaning of “one” in the first place. Naturalism can’t account for abstract absolutes.
Natural laws are only one part of science, namely, physics. And a law is only descriptive of nature, not prescriptive. I tells us how nature functions, not how it should function. And things are proven with propensities, until disproven with greater contrary propensities like you point out. This is my argument. You are making my argument for me! For example, you don’t know that the sun will rise and set tomorrow. You have good reason to believe this because it has happened many times in the past, however, you still do not know with 100% certainty that it will tomorrow, thus you have faith that it most likely will. Your faith is backed with reason, but so is mine in terms of studying the world around me as well as belief in Christ.
June 1, 2009 at 12:35 am |
“Further, let’s question your arbitrary moralism and decide why you should be “moral” in a universe where there is no God, thus no real morality where things are really right and really wrong which we are really accountable to.”
One need not be ‘accountable’ to be ‘moral’. One can be moral simply because their mother taught them well. Or maybe just because, one is human and can empathize with a fellow human being. Which allows you to base your morals on how you would like to be treated by others. I don’t need anybody or anything to STOP me from being moral.
It is ridiculous to assume that without God, there would be no reason to be moral or a good person. If you think about the statement carefully, it is equivalent to saying that without God all Christians will stop being moral. In other words, Christians are naturally immoral. Is that so? I’m not sure I’d want my children growing up around immoral people.
June 1, 2009 at 10:35 am |
So someone’s mom could teach them that being moral is murdering. Who are you to disagree with their subjective opinion of morality? You have offered no rational foundation as to why we ought to behave a certain way as opposed to any other way. In the end, all is permissable.
June 1, 2009 at 11:42 am |
Yes, you are correct. And this is exactly what happens. There are religions that teach the stoning of adulterers as the correct course of action ( the definition of morality ).
There are also religions that teach that breaking sabbath is punishable by death.
“Exudus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.”
I think we can agree that this is not right and not moral. Yet it is the words of your God.
I would argue that teaching one’s child to murder is immoral, because it violates another human beings right to life and liberty. Furthermore, I have the right to “disagree with their subjective opinion of morality”, because it is every man’s right to think for themselves and form their own opinions. Are you suggesting that I am not allowed to disagree with somebody?
Morality as I tried to point out can be based on simple human decency. Or better known as the Golden Rule of ethic reciprocity the “ethical code that states one has a right to just treatment, and a responsibility to ensure justice for others.”
In Bible terms, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” (Luke 6:31, NIV)
Indeed “in the end, all is permissible”, for we are all part of nature. However, random murder is not good for society or humanity’s growth so we can all agree that it is not the right thing to do.
June 9, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Edward, your contradicting yourself. You agreed that you believe that all is permissable, then you want to turn around and say that God killing those who willfully rebel against His established law for the nation of Israel is murder and is wrong! This makes no sense. Why don’t you stay consistent and say that “all is permissable, even if God wants to kill, if I want to kill, or if Ted Bundy wants to kill”?
So the answer is “NO” we cannot agree on what is moral until you provide a standard which eternally defines what is all good. That is the basis for a real morality where all is not permissable at the end of the day.
I would argue that teaching one’s child to murder is immoral, because it violates another human beings right to life and liberty.
This is just your subjective opinion. Someone could disagree and no one is more right then the other. All is permissable.
Furthermore, I have the right to “disagree with their subjective opinion of morality”, because it is every man’s right to think for themselves and form their own opinions. Are you suggesting that I am not allowed to disagree with somebody?
Again, someone could equally disagree with you and no one is to be considered more right. All is permissable, thus all are free to kill if they’d like. Congratulations to your worldview which is supposedly superior to Christianity.
Morality as I tried to point out can be based on simple human decency.
Some may disagree with what is considered “decent”. No one is more right. All is permissable.
However, random murder is not good for society or humanity’s growth so we can all agree that it is not the right thing to do.
Someone could disagree with you as far as what is good for society. Some may think it’s good for society to all die. We all die anyways, so it’s just speeding up the natural process. Your opinion can’t be more right then theirs, unless your a fundamentalist. If all is permissable, then stop trying to act like all isn’t permissable. Just stay consistent and stop trying to act like there is an eternal all-good standard like my worldview can account for.
June 1, 2009 at 12:59 am |
My dad is an atheist and my mom is catholic. As a kid, i would always pray to god for this and that. When I was 12 years old, I realized there was no god and i was an atheist. That is also when i found out my dad was always an atheist.
I do not recall asking my parents if god existed or not. However, I would recommend that you try to get your wife not to influence your daughter. If she disagrees, then do not budge. Sooner or later, your daughter will ask you what you what you believe in. This is when you tell her your belief. You must explain in detail why and what motivated you to become an atheist. By her asking you, she will think independently of whats correct and incorrect. When she does reach a conclusion if god exists or not, she will probably never debate it as no one forced it on her.
Keep in mind this is completely different from her asking why did god not help me. I would follow the same steps right now as you are doing and not try to interfere. However, if it still continues to bug her, then you might want to tell her your thoughts on this. If you do not, she “might” think she is cursed and could start doing naughty things because god does not care about her. When you do tell her your thoughts, she needs to know that this is her decision to make and that you will always love her. If your wife or the area you live in is extremely religious, I would try to wait until she is older (but if you have to tell her at a young age, then tell her to keep it a secret until she is 10 years old).
There was a blog about a person who when he was 10 asked his dad why he did not attend church. The dad took him to church one Sunday. Afterward, the dad told him that decision was entirely his to make.
June 1, 2009 at 1:29 am |
Thanks for the story Rishi. I particularly like the last paragraph. This is how all atheists should handle the church/god question with their kids. “Here it is, it’s your choice”. This is exactly the opposite of what a believer would do – there is no way they’d give their children the same choice.
June 1, 2009 at 8:14 am |
The church my wife takes my children to does a very good job of making Sunday school fun for the kids. But every Sunday my daughter says, “I don’t want to go to church!”
Virtually every kid on earth would agree with my daughter. Parents typically bring children to church by force, not by choice.
June 1, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I remember one day I decided that I wasn’t going to go. I was going to stay in and play with my toys.
My mom made a big show about leaving me by myself and how bored and lonely I was going to be while they were gone and went out to the car. The intention was that I would quickly realize that I wanted to be with the family and run out after them.
When that didn’t happen, she marched right back in and carried me out into the car.
It was actually pretty funny and something I look back on and chuckle about.
June 1, 2009 at 1:47 am |
I believe in superman to the same extent that I believe in fairies, or unicorns, or gods. Which is to say, not at all.
June 1, 2009 at 2:01 am |
The way I see it, no one fully understands anything. Just keep asking the question “how” or “why” and one will realize that nothing will ever be fully understood. For example, the computer that I’m using. One can study a computer and break it down to all the components and understand how each component makes the computer work. But then one can ask “How does specific component X work?” This can be done over and over until one gets to the point where the answer is “We don’t fully understand how component Y works but we do have an idea.”
Perhaps God is a concept that we have tried to break down in order to try and understand. But being human…we probably messed something up along the way.
As far as your daughter is concerned… I think you should tell her to keep an open mind. Everything in this life should be questioned. It makes life very interesting when we ask questions. Life can be very dull when everything is supposedly already answered.
Do I believe in God yes and no. Do I believe everything science teaches me yes and no. Science teaches me that there was a big bang but where did original components of the universe come from? The Bible teaches us that God was just there…but how can God just be? Looks to me that at when it comes to the creation of the universe the Bible and science have a lot of explaining to do.
(Check this out for another theory of our universe, one has to have a lot of faith http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html . A very interesting program on String Theory)
As far as your daughter’s prayer not working. The way that I would have approached it would have been to tell her that we don’t fully understand God and that she is asking the right questions. Tell her that you will be there to help her as much as you can. That way she is comforted by having her dad help her with her pain. At that age I think that would be enough. (My reasoning will follow)
When she does get a little older explain that God may not be how people have described God to be (she probably will have already figured that out). Her prayer that she thinks wasn’t answered does not mean that there isn’t a God. And at the same time, a prayer that is answered also doesn’t mean that there IS a God. Tell her not dismiss God because a few prayers don’t get answered. Tell her that life will make her believe in God one minute and dismiss God the next but to never to take it to either extreme because she could miss out on some important life experiences.
Why do I say the above…well again it boils down to the fact that we just don’t understand. In my opinion, her prayer was answered. Maybe not to the extreme she would have liked but you were there to give her medicine and help her pain to go away. Now, was any of that God’s work?
I know that some of my prayers go unanswered but I like to think of it this way…
Most people have faith that when a computer is turns on it will actually turn on. But what if I turn on my computer one day and it doesn’t turn on or even worse it crashes while doing something very important (Always backup your work!
). Does this mean that I shouldn’t have faith in computers in general? Should I dismiss my faith in computers just because it has failed me a few times? The logical answer is no. I know that more often than not, the computer will enhance my life. It will make certain tasks easier…but do I NEED IT? No…I will be ok if I never touched another computer in my life. But does the computer enhance my life? Yes, it sure does! I can play video games, watch movies, listen to music and find information at my fingertips. I can also read blogs and post replies 
.
God is much like that for me. Having faith in God like entity can enhance my life. When I worry, I can say a prayer in hopes that the entity out there can send help…or perhaps just help me worry less. But I never put all my faith in a prayer. If there is something that I can do I will go do it. I won’t just sit there and hope that the entity will come solve my problems. It is a very comforting feeling to have faith that God can be on my side but I don’t count on it.
June 1, 2009 at 4:52 am |
Time – You would have him tell her, we cant always believe science because nobody knows where the matter for the universe originated. Wow – Bad answer. Why wouldn’t it be better to tell her Christians will believe anything. Point to any scripture and tell her there are 1000 different ways to interpret it. Nobody knows because ignorant men, looking for fame notoriety and a free meal wrote this BS. Tell her if the evidence is in the bible, she should not believe. It is the most screwed up fiction of all time. Tell she is a bright girl that can think for herself. She does not need religion to comfort her. Religion is for the weak. Tell almost every civilization through out history has made up gods for things they do not understand, or can not comprehend. Tell her do not be weak and take the easy way out. Just understand, we do not know now. Maybe we will sometime in the future. It is up to her if she wants to be a lemming.
Your way is like saying daddy kind of believes. Look god had daddy here for you. Why not leave out the BS and say daddy is here for you. God never will be. God can not answer prayers, because he does not exist, except in simple minds of delusional people that appear to be rational. They are not, so never trust someone that believes.
June 1, 2009 at 12:10 pm |
I wouldn’t take a negative spin on it.
Like you said, kids are pretty bright and can figure things out on their own.
Instead of writing off religion by telling them the score, why not use it as just another opportunity for them to determine their identity by figuring it all out themselves?
As they ask questions about religion, they will figure out that it doesn’t all add up and that merely saying “you have to have faith” isn’t an acceptable answer.
Honestly, what kid likes to hear “because I said so, that’s why?” They want an answer to things that don’t make sense to them and religion is no exception. It’s only when the idea that they’re supposed to just roll with it is repeatedly impressed upon them that they accept it as such.
June 1, 2009 at 3:08 am |
You should have told her to ask Superman to come to her rescue the next time it hurt.
June 1, 2009 at 6:37 am |
and superman would have been just as effective as god in this case…
June 1, 2009 at 6:36 am |
i wrote my year 12 english exam on how people use religion as a crutch… because it IS a crutch…
people use religion to explain things they don’t understand or things that they may “fear” such as death…
The bible is just a story… it has a few good things in it, such as don’t kill people, don’t steal stuff, and don’t sleep with some other blokes missus… but it also contains bad stuff, such as gay people are bad and you shouldn’t masturbate. (For some strange reason god doesn’t want you blokes taking yourselves in hand, but he has no problems with us girls doing the same thing
)
i don’t believe in god all that much either, can’t say that i seriously ever did. i was brought up in a christian household and all that jazz, but my parents let me work out my beliefs for myself, by answering my questions or directing me towards a book that might have an answer for me… and let me work out the answers for myself.
5 is never to young for working out the answers yourself…
June 1, 2009 at 6:58 am |
You could use this as an opportunity to discuss mythological pantheons. The D.C. Universe is essentially a repeat of Grecoroman Mythology:
Superman – Apollo/Helios
Batman – Hephaestus/Vulcan
Wonder Woman – Artemis/Diana
The Flash – Hermes/Mercury
Aquaman – Poseidon/Neptune
Then you use that to roll into a discussion of how the same mythology pops up in culture after culture.
Then you casually leave out a copy of “The Hero With a Thousand Faces” by Joseph Campbell and let her make up her own mind.
June 1, 2009 at 7:11 am |
BEattitude,
I think you are doing fine, but since you asked for views, I will shamelessly share mine.
I have decided that should I ever have children, I will raise them in the faith that I was raised in even tho I don’t believe anymore. Or if my wife has strong faith, I will raise our children in her faith.
A home cannot be a war zone, least of all for the children.
Then reason it out for yourself. Why do you do what you do, and why do you wonder what to do?
Because you want to do what is best for your family, and what is best for your child. And what is best for your child is for her to grow up a good person, with a sense of responsibility, compassion and respect for others, and a strong sense of her own self-worth.
As for the specifics, it’s a lot like telling your kids about sex. You want to tell them what they can understand and can handle at their level.
So if she still believes in Santa Claus, and you are still doing the Christmas thing, then God is just part of the deal.
Frankly, the big advantage of organised religion is that it comes pre-packaged with all the set answers, and it’s kind of a no-brainer to hand out the pre-digested morality in bite-size pieces.
After all, which is easier to explain: You should be good because god loves you and wants you to be good, or You should be good because you are a member of civilised society and as such share a social compact with all other members of society which is predicated on each member of society respecting the rights of each other, and fulfilling their social responsibilities?
So keep your eye on the ball and do what is necessary for your family as well as your children’s development.
So, yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus… oh yeah, and God too. But ask me again when you’re older.
June 1, 2009 at 8:18 am |
My goal is always to do what is best to keep my marriage strong and my children learning and growing. I will never allow my home to become a battle zone.
My opinion doesn’t trump my wife, so she can continue to bring them to church and I will be equally honest with them. When they are old enough to think rationally for themselves they can decide what they believe.
June 1, 2009 at 9:28 am |
My opinion doesn’t trump my wife
No! The man is master of the woman. The Bible says so.
June 1, 2009 at 9:40 am |
I think you sense that you are on thinning ice with your approach.
You’re wondering, how long can you be honest with them and not contradict your wife.
Your passive support of our wife (or non-undermining of your wife’s faith) can only take you so far.
Hopefully, by the time the thin ice breaks, your kids will be in their late teens or old enough to reason for themselves, and you can share your worldview with them, and they can understand or begin to understand.
But what if they’re not, is probably what you’re asking yourself.
I guess the fact that you are not actively undermining your wife’s faith says that you are generally tolerant of her faith (or religion in general).
You can be an atheist without being an anti-theist.
I don’t know if you share the same view as i do, that religion serves a social function, and raising kids in organised religion is a viable option. But you are allowing your kids to be raised that way.
What you need to decide (maybe not now, but probably in the months to come) is what are you willing to do.
You say that you will do what is best for your family and your children.
What if it meant you needed to pretend to believe?
What if your daughter asks you pointblank, or says something like, “I don’t think God even exists!” and you wife hurriedly says, Of course He does!”, and your daughter turns to you and asks you, “Does he, dad?”
What do you say then?
I dunno about you, but I’d pretend (a.k.a. lie).
And you need to decide ahead of time (if you’re going to lie) cos you need to be prepared to do so without hesitation. If you hesitate, you have given your true answer.
And the truth will set you free?
How do we justify lying to kids? We do it all the time to protect them.
Then we trust that when they are older and when they wiser, they’ll figure the truth out for themselves. At the rate your daughter is going, she’s likely to follow her father.
But this is just my answer. It may not be the right answer for you (or for anyone for that matter).
Maybe I need to think about my answer.
While you think about yours.
June 1, 2009 at 7:38 am |
I wanted to let you know I linked this article to my blogs.
http://mixtersmix.blogspot.com/
June 1, 2009 at 9:43 am |
seriously man,u have to know that God talks to us everyday,but its kinda ,like we dnt realy listen to him.and ur daughter prayed to god…god loves kids,and no matter what he will alwayst do
June 1, 2009 at 11:08 am |
God posesses the power of invisibility but we as human possess the power to discern. I am no one to
June 1, 2009 at 11:14 am |
typo error..pls ignore this comment.
thanks.
June 1, 2009 at 11:13 am |
If God possesses the power of invisibility, we possess the power of discernment. I shall not comment on your status however I am extremely intrigued to know the reasons that in the first place, let you remain a ‘believer’ and then led you to forsake your belief.
June 1, 2009 at 12:32 pm |
i think you need to determine your priorities. Is keeping the relationship between you and your wife #1 or giving your 5 year old freedom to believe what she wants #1?
I would say that you and your wife need to find a common ground for parenting right now. Let the “beliefs” be what they are but kids thrive on mom and dad being a unified front. Kids have this weird way of figuring out that mom and dad don’t think alike and they will maximize that to their advantage and it could be a disadvantage for you guys.
Obviously the belief thing is big for you but you for sure should honor your wife and she should honor you. Figure out how to keep lovin’ on eachother the best way you can so you can give your kids a foundation of LOVE while the belief foundation is in question.
June 1, 2009 at 12:40 pm |
[...] This article made me want to include a little list of why Superman is better than Jesus. I’ve made a comparative list so that I can definitively prove that the last son of Krypton is superior to the King of Kings in almost every way. [...]
June 1, 2009 at 12:48 pm |
Your statement is a worthy argument, and it is a hard one to understand, to think an invisible God would have anything to do with any person. Why would he do anything like that anyways, he owns everything, why would he want to do anything with us?
The thing is, God does it all the time. I’ve seen it with my very eyes that God is real, and working in the world. I’ve been healed from back pain, and watched people come out of deep depression, be healed from cancer, and be freed and healed from many things.
From the beginning of the world, we were the ones who were above all other creation, because God put himself in us, and made us like him, so we could give him the honor, and he would be praised. Then we disowned him, abandoned him, and at times, completely forgot about him. But he has never forgotten about us. There might be times when you feel God isn’t answering you, and he does say know, but he knows why he is saying no, because he has something better for you.
I’m not one of those sort of Christian’s who condemns everyone who doesn’t agree with me, and I respect you for your beliefs and experiences. I just know, with all that I am, with all that is within me, that Jesus was the reason I am still alive, the reason I haven’t killed myself, the reason I came out of depression, the reason I am living the way I am right now. I’ve tried almost everything else, and nothing has worked, everything else has only brought me more pain and more grief. And I’m sure you feel that too.
All I have to say is, God is just waiting for you to believe in him, and he will work in you. Purposefully pursue him, seek him out, and he will show you.
Stephen
June 1, 2009 at 1:03 pm |
That evidences how infantile is your view about God, about Religion, evidences that you should seriously search about it but simply don’t want, rather get comfortable in a child’s view of the World. Want to listen and read what pleases you. Many people had these questions in History, but they did their best and have become great thinkers and philosophers of the Faith.
Caio
June 1, 2009 at 1:18 pm |
Firstly, I have to say I really love that you have created this blog – I think it’s so important to create the space for dialogue. I also love your designs!
Back to the conversation -
I am not a Christian. I grew up Catholic but by no means I was ever “devoted” and I wouldn’t say that I am one, or even religious for that matter. Like you, I was never one for blindly following and never questioning so I took matters into my own hands and now have a spiritual sense of “God”. I arrived at all this through self discovery, sorting through difficult moments of my life from a higher perspective and arriving at my own beliefs. It took a number of different modalities of which were more personal development (meditation, breathwork, books, landmark, philosophy, metaphysics and even learning about quantum physics!) than religious but it all arrived at spirituality.
I think the Eastern religions have a few ways that could lead to answers and if one were to look into Jesus’ life from a historical perspective, one would find that his teachings and his practices were in line with Eastern philosophies.
At the heart of any “relationship” is how you are in it. Like the title of your blog insinuates, “the attitude is decisive”. What if God isn’t this mystical being that grants wishes through prayers? What if God is within each and everyone of us and it’s up to us to allow God attributes to occur in the world through our own unique abilities (after all no else in the world has the same combination of our past, our personalities and our DNA). If this is our attitude, then what are we mere humans capable of? More than we can imagine! And there are people creating miracles every day. What does it take for someone to endure war, rape and in spite of all difficulties that occur in this world, they transcend it and are loving and are helpful.
You mentioned having a powerful experience that led you to be reborn… If you think back to what led to it – how were you? Was your heart open, did you have a strong sense of self, were you surrendering to anything that may come? All these attributes for me have led to that “relationship” with God. I really believe that God isn’t this creature that is outside of ourselves. The blissful states, the oneness that one feels during spiritual experiences – all these occur within and it only takes being open hearted, surrendering to what may come and constantly working on oneself to have a strong sense of sense that is not guided by the past or “personality” or our thoughts or our feelings.
Going back to your daughter and the physical pain she was under… I recall being under a great deal of pain at 14 years old and mentally thinking that pain was an illusion and it worked! I can imagine that it would be difficult to convey this to a 5 year old but what if we adults supported that “faith like a child” that everything and anything is possible? What kind of magical life would that child have? What amazing contributions would that child be able to give to our world?
June 1, 2009 at 1:28 pm |
Yeah you don’t tug on superman’s cape
You don’t spit into the wind
You don’t pull the mask off the old lone ranger
And you don’t mess around with slim
June 1, 2009 at 1:28 pm |
[...] Are You An Atheist? Reading this article, reminded me of a conversation I had with my [...]
June 1, 2009 at 1:41 pm |
I’d say God’s answer to the prayer may have been in the Ibuprofen — grace working through the scientists who created it and all the other people who made it possible for you to give it to your daughter that night.
I read your “Top 20 List”. I give you credit for being intellecually honest with yourself.
I wonder if you’ve given yourself a chance for belief in God without a literal interpretation of the Bible. Maybe it’s time to explore a faith tradition that places at least an equal emphasis on the Sacramental life.
June 1, 2009 at 5:29 pm |
Praise the Lord for Ibuprofen!
But what about all the people before modern medicine came around? When bloodletting and other barbaric procedures were common. Did God’s grace inspire those scientists and medical professionals as well?
June 9, 2009 at 12:30 pm |
God’s grace let them suck His oxygen as sinners deserving of wrath. Many of them were probably actually thankful for that and realized they didn’t deserve that. In fact that is the case as you can read in the biographies and hymns or early Christians.
June 1, 2009 at 2:14 pm |
I have to agree with the child. Both are born of fiction (seriously, show me some true hard evidence otherwise) and both are pretty “super.” But, in the end, I’ll have to side with the one I can relate to better — the one with a face. And those eye-lasers are pretty spiffy too.
June 1, 2009 at 4:19 pm |
“So how should I respond to my daughter’s statement yesterday?”
Your daughter needs counselling. I realise you only recently left your faith, but you must understand how much trauma her mother is putting your daughter through. Since that is what religion is — trauma.
Stand up for her. She needs you.
June 1, 2009 at 4:54 pm |
copying and pasting from the link someone referenced earlier…
” Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the “true one” is not all that relevant in such contexts…
“This is important. What is really relevant is whether our explanations show that the point of contention is not necessarily a contradiction. If we succeed, then the critic’s assertion that “X and Y are contradictory” is no longer an obvious truth, instead it becomes merely a belief that someone holds. ”
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm
That statement is so fascinating to me. This site is telling Christians to makeup anything plausible . They don’t even have to believe they have the right answer! Isn’t that a little self defeating?! That last statement…”is no longer an obvious truth, instead it becomes merely a belief that someone holds. ” is the perfect description of Christianity.
June 1, 2009 at 5:16 pm |
Your daughter’s comment makes me think of my best friend who when she was in early elementary school got in trouble with her mom and with her teacher at Sunday school for asking if it was cannibalism to eat the body and blood of Christ.
I grew up with an atheist dad and a catholic christian mom, I can’t give too much advice ’cause honestly I don’t remember it ever being a problem. It was just sort of a given that mom brought us to church but dad didn’t go, mom lead us in praying before the meal but dad just sat quietly, etc. Mom told us about being catholic and the religion and dad was sort of stood by in the religious. I think it helped us grow up knowing we had a choice what to believe and not everyone believed the same thing but we could still get along fine.
If you feel the need to bring it up to your daughter, it might be best to just give an off handed comment along the lines of “You know I think superman is pretty cool too.” When she is that young she probably doesn’t even realize what she said is a big deal, so just let her know that its okay for her to think what she wants.
You also may want to talk to your wife about the “No, he isn’t” part of her statement, something along the lines of “But superman is just in the movie” or “But God can help people outside of the movie” etc, might be better. Make the point without telling the kid that her opinion is wrong. It will help the kid to later on feel she can talk to your wife about her opinions without being worried that her opinions will be rejected.
Well good luck, hope you don’t have too much trouble. And tell your wife not to worry to much, kids tend to say stuff like that, she doesn’t have to worry unless the kid starts worshiping superman
-Ellipsis
June 1, 2009 at 6:48 pm |
just don’t let your daughter believe that the a loving being in the universe would not approve of her because of original sin. that really killed my self-esteem as a young child, which murdered my dignity. but it was okay because i ‘knew’ i had the monopoly on truth and that made me special. it made me better than everyone else who didn’t believe in jesus. but simultaneously I had no respect for myself.
don’t let your daughter get mind fucked like i was.
i would be concerned first and foremost with making sure your daughter knows that you love her no matter what. and make sure christianity doesn’t ruin her self esteem like it did mine.
June 1, 2009 at 9:04 pm |
I’m surprised. I honour you for being an open minded father to your daughter and guiding them with an open heart.
This is what I think about the situation:
“I prayed for God to stop my arm from hurting so I could sleep. But he didn’t do it. Why?” -your daughter prayed to stop the arm from hurting,
“Then I made her comfortable and gave her Ibuprofen.” – on this statement i can see that God really did stop your child’s pain through you. God does do things, he answered your daughter’s prayers. He made the pain stop and he used you as an instrument.
He wants us to not just wait for a request, but do something about it. He wants us to learn on our own. Like you, as a father, you want your kids to learn from their own point of view because you allowed them to use their free will… God is the same, he only guides us and let us do what we want so we can learn things from our own point of view.
June 1, 2009 at 11:27 pm |
I would like to apologize for the uncharitable responses this blog post has generated from my fellow believers. Christians can be harsh, uncaring, and presumptuous about people with legitimate doubts. They’re only human, I guess. I found your anecdote about your daughter actually rather cute and somewhat sad, too. I grew up in a home where my parents didn’t agree on religious matters and it was confusing for me and my brothers at times, especially when it came to moral decisions. I hope that you and your wife are able to work together in raising your kids.
I do think that both the atheist and the theist camp could do with less rhetoric and more philosophically rigorous public figures, though. Richard Dawkins, though a very intelligent man, can be just as insulting and abrasive towards Christians as Pat Robertson is toward atheists and Jerry Falwell was toward gay people and democrats. I too think that the way we should approach religious belief is rationally and reflectively, with intellectual honesty and not harsh rhetoric. Neither side does this very well.
To those of you who doubt, there are many of us who also doubt but have remained of the theist persuasion. I’m one. There are others who are far more intelligent than I am who occupy the same position. I do not think that the divide is simply a matter of those unreasoned Christians and evil atheists. We’re all humans here and we’re all looking for answers. I do my best to engage charitably and thoughtfully with those who disagree with me. I hope you’ll do the same.
I look forward to reading more of your blog, theBEattitude.
June 2, 2009 at 8:01 am |
Thank you. I am in full agreement that the atheist and theist camps become much too polarized. It becomes pointless and juvenile when the discussion degrades to pointing fingers and insulting each other.
I didn’t start this blog because I am a militant hater of Christians. I’m married to a Christian, so that wouldn’t make any sense. I simply disagree with what Christians believe and this blog opens it up for discussion. Like you I strive to engage charitably and thoughtfully with those who disagree with me. Insults I either ignore or point out how obviously hypocritical their words are.
June 2, 2009 at 6:39 am |
re: “So how should I respond to my daughter’s statement yesterday? What could I say to her that wouldn’t build a wedge into my marriage? I do have to agree with my daughter, the only superpower God seems to posses is the power of invisibility.”
O doubting Thomas do you wish to see the nail prints in his hand and the hole in his side? Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe. Lost brother come back to the faith which you are currently denying and come back to the Lord as a five year old child would who trusts Dad’s word. Trust the Word of God. Live by it. Lean on it with all your heart for the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob will not fail.
17:1 Jesus said to his disciples, “Stumbling blocks are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 17:2 It would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 17:3 Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. 17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to you saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Did you know that Saul went about imprisoning and causing Christians to be killed before he met up with Jesus face to face. I assume that you are aware of most of the content in the Bible.
Since your wife is presumably a Christian and practicing her faith then her hope in the Lord will never die even if her husband is an atheist However be warned that if you walk away from the Lord she has the right and approval of the Lord to walk away from you and re-marry so as to keep her children holy and teach them how to give glory to God the creator of earth and the universe.
I have walked with the Lord for over 30 years and my wife as well. I am a software engineer and have studied the Word carefully and there is no cognitive disconnect for me. I have tested and found the Word to be pure and true. My wife is an endocrinologist and professor at Harvard. She has never doubted the Word. DNA and the replication of life is an everyday miracle. The reproduction of life by male and female each according to their kind is caused by divine purpose and design.
June 2, 2009 at 10:56 pm |
Cameron-
I love your response: “Nick, is Zeus in time or outside of time? Is he eternal, immutable, and all good? The Greek gods were never said to be outside of time but inside of time. Scripture clearly teaches that God is outside of time, however. So there you have it. I’ve questioned why the Triune God of Scripture is more superior than Zeus.” since it has no basis in anything. It is simply a claim with no evidence. Yet, you state it emphatically. Good on you. Your mind is well defended against contradictory evidence.
I’m pretty sure the Greeks believed in their god as much as you believe in yours.
My question in response is this: “If your God exists, and all things that exist must have been created, then who created your God?” God would have to be pretty complex to create the universe, so it just kicks the can down the road. No doubt you’re going to say “God has always existed”. Of course. How convenient.
The problem with faith is that it is all claims with no evidence and having faith has no predictive value. You can believe anything you want (and people can believe some pretty crazy things), but science is the only thing that has shown predictive value and pushed the human race forward.
I assert that faith and science are mutually incompatible. Anyone who thinks they can co-exist is essentially fooling themselves. They have cordoned off some portion of their mind and made a rule that no contradictory evidence may enter. Everyone has a fact filter. Is yours tuned to turn away new evidence because it conflicts with your pre-existing world view, or is it tuned to kick out your own bad ideas when it encounters something that you can’t ignore?
June 9, 2009 at 1:38 am |
Nick, you said “I’m pretty sure the Greeks believed in their god as much as you believe in yours.”
That’s fine. But I already demonstrated how their criterion of “god” is insufficient to account for a finite universe. Scripture teaches that Christ is outside of time, thus time, space, matter, and energy had a beginning.
having faith has no predictive value.
If Christ created the universe and for His purposes, then I have greater reason to trust that the future will be like the past. If “?” created the universe for the reason of “?”, then there is no reason to trust that the future will be like the past.
“If your God exists, and all things that exist must have been created, then who created your God?”
If something created God then I would call that thing God, and so forth into infinitely. I just cut to the chase, skip the infinite regress, and say “God”. Further, Scripture teaches that God is eternal and self-sufficient, thus is an un-caused cause in philosophical terms. Scientists already believe there is a 4th dimension (outside the universe) to our 3rd dimension (the universe) if you will. I call that “God”, or Yahweh, or Christ. I don’t say that because it’s convenient, but because it’s what Scripture teaches and is a rational precondition to our finite existence. I could just as easily say it’s convenient for you shun a worldview which always has been conveniently true. There’s plenty of “convenience” to go around.
science is the only thing that has shown predictive value and pushed the human race forward.
“Pushing the human race forward” is not something you can scientifically prove. This is a subjective opinion. Thus, is a metaphysical notion. Science works off of induction. You can’t prove with 100% certainty that you’re real. This might be the Matrix. You would have no way of knowing for sure. Thus, even science requires faith.
And by science and faith, I assume you mean the observable and the non-observable. Yet, science itself requires observers who observe the observable. You must assume the non-observable to account for each of these. You don’t know how time came from timelessness, how “life” originated, and how to account for abstract absolute meanings by which you claim to know anything. The two fit like a glove, and you’re assertion is way off!
What evidence am I kicking out exactly, since you’re making the assertion that I am? I’d like to know what your worldview is so I can see how it accounts for a real morality and the laws of logic! I’m waiting…
June 9, 2009 at 7:40 am |
Your law of logic is, “It’s true because the Bible tells me so.”
The Bible is so flawed and conflicting, I’m not sure how you decide what “real morality” is, or which conflicting law to follow. Either way, your reasoning is far from logical.
June 9, 2009 at 12:01 pm
thebeattitude, I don’t intend to sound mean to you, but I can tell you don’t haven’t studied much about these types of things. It’s like when someone enters into a debate and the opponent doesn’t take anytime to find out what the other believes. They only ASSUME what they believe, thus they assume what they are arguing, and would have been better off just not showing up to the debate. I would really suggest, if you were to ever consider my advice (probably not), to take some time to read and learn what arguments from morality and the laws of logic entail before you start attempting to argue about them. It’s like when Evolutionists can’t stand Christians who argue against Evolution, yet don’t know anything about what it really says or teaches.
By the laws of logic, I’m referring to classical logic of thought, aka the 3 laws of logic. In other words, how we think and identify things. Simply put, one’s worldview must account for abstract (immaterial) absolute (unchanging) meanings. Naturalism can’t account for the immaterial, because all is material. If you look on my blog under ‘the laws of logic and John 1:1′ I explain why the Christian worldview does account for this.
2nd, with morality. The reason I say “real morality” is because I don’t believe all is permissable. If morality is purely subjective then all is ultimately permissable. Yet we don’t live our lives like that. I don’t think we live like that arbitrarily, but because we are created in the likeness of a being who eternally defines what is all-good. I call that being God. Where is your standard of what is all good?
June 2, 2009 at 11:14 pm |
xierellecross -
I love this contortion: ““Then I made her comfortable and gave her Ibuprofen.” – on this statement i can see that God really did stop your child’s pain through you. God does do things, he answered your daughter’s prayers. He made the pain stop and he used you as an instrument.”.
So, by that logic, a suicide bomber that kills a busload of children is also working according to God’s plan. At least that’s what he thought he was doing.
Humans working hard and using the scientific method came up with ibuprofen. A parent giving it to a child is an educated, rational action.
If she had not prayed to God for it, would he still have given it to her when she said her arm hurt? My guess is yes.
June 2, 2009 at 11:29 pm |
youngearth -
“I have walked with the Lord for over 30 years and my wife as well. I am a software engineer and have studied the Word carefully and there is no cognitive disconnect for me. I have tested and found the Word to be pure and true. My wife is an endocrinologist and professor at Harvard. She has never doubted the Word. DNA and the replication of life is an everyday miracle. The reproduction of life by male and female each according to their kind is caused by divine purpose and design.”
So, are you ignoring scientific discoveries or parts of the Bible? You are likely being intellectually dishonest with yourself if you truly believe there is no conflict. The universe is ~13.5 billion years old by astronomical observation, yet the Bible states it’s only 10,000 years old. Do you believe both figures? Perhaps you’re claiming that God created the universe 10,000 years ago to look like it was ~13.5 billion years old. That would possibly explain how you can hold both beliefs, but I would classify that as mental gymnastics.
June 9, 2009 at 1:39 am |
The Bible does not out right say how old the earth is. Nick, what you mean is “many Christians have believed that the Bible teaches that the earth is 6,000-10,000 years old. In fact, many church fathers, such as Augustine, believed in an older universe. I would recommend checking out Hugh Ross’ position on this. Looking at Gen 1, the Hebrew word ‘yom’ can be a reference to literal days or a long period of time. Context decides. It’s worth noting that human days from our perspective weren’t even created in the Gen account until the 4th day, b/c that’s when the sun and stars were finally in place. Also, the 7th day doesn’t have a “day and night” closing on it, hence why Heb 3 and 4 says we’re currently in the 7th day!
June 4, 2009 at 12:21 am |
Hey, man, just love your daughter and wife to the best of your ability and with all your heart — and try real hard not to let matters of religion and belief (or the lack thereof) get in the way of that.
And, maybe, if God really is love, you might just reconnect with Him in the process.
June 5, 2009 at 11:36 pm |
My sister is a Lutheran married to a Japanese atheist. Her children are baptized and I am their godmother. They met at church in Japan, which he attended only to learn English.
In their household, she and the children go to church and he does not. He does not usually discuss religion. He is generally a quiet man. He will, however, occasionally admonish her to follow the “dictates” of her religion more closely, meaning that she should be more self-disciplined, more patient, more whatever he thinks she should be more of.
So, here we have the atheist acting the moralist, while the Lutheran lives on grace, the forgiveness of sins for herself and those around her. Kind of ironic, too. Some of us are just not as good as some atheists.
We desperately need the forgiveness, and they don’t.
In terms of the atheism, even though as a Christian I sometimes look at some of our own thought patterns as circular or don’t have answers to many questions, I do find the Bible a credible document and hence inspired. When I read the texts carefully, I cannot come away with it as invented by people. People would not have invented such books. Atheism has not come up with anything that explains human life and experience at all. It really can’t throw any stones.
As someone said above, if there is no god, who then caused the genocides and why does it even matter if there is a genocide if there is only materialism? You are not putting out any explanations.
I enjoyed this article the other day,(http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2009/04/conversion-experience-atheism) which with some sensitivity dealt with the fact that materialism cannot deal with our deep experiences of beauty, life, death, meaning…
June 7, 2009 at 4:57 pm |
If your daughter prayed for her pain to go away, and you gave her ibuprophen, didn’t her prayers got answered?
June 9, 2009 at 12:08 pm |
Amen Gab.
February 14, 2010 at 7:24 pm |
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
December 9, 2009 at 11:42 am |
There’s an important distinction to be made here.
Superman > God
Batman > Superman
On a serious note, what if his daughter had prayed to Superman for the pain to go away? Would that mean that SUPERMAN answered the prayer when her father gave her the Ibuprofen?
July 17, 2010 at 9:19 pm |
‘There’s an important distinction to be made here.
Superman > God
Batman > Superman’
Old comment, but this needs to be said:
Dr. Strange > Batman, Superman, Spiderman, Iron Man, Green Latern, etc…
July 17, 2010 at 8:34 pm |
Actually god can do anything. He made you!!!!!!!!
July 17, 2010 at 9:10 pm |
He can’t forgive your sins with out the blood of animals or his only son, nor can he inspire his prophets to write original stories of his miraculous works as most of the stories in the Bible were inspired by much older stories.
July 17, 2010 at 9:58 pm |
Yes, but note that God usually chooses to do NOTHING – in the words of those who believe in him, God may or may not choose to do something, for reasons that are his own.
Superman and all the fictional heroes are better than God in that, in their respective realities, despite NOT having God’s power and despite having the same whims, they chose to DO SOMETHING.
God is no hero in the tale of our reality, it is humans who act that are the real heroes – even if it were at the behest of God. We can thank God for sending someone OR putting someone in the position to save another – but we do not thank God for the act of being saved by another human.