On ongoing weekly series of quotes from Martin Luther.
Satan often uses snakes and monkeys to deceive people.
“Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them.”
-Martin Luther
Table Talk, from The Collected Works of Martin Luther
I did go to the local zoo before I lost faith in God. Maybe the damn monkeys deceived me!
Tags: Bible, Deceive, Demon, Devil, God, Martin Luther, Monkey, Quote, Satan, Snake, Teaching
June 6, 2009 at 12:02 pm |
If you really wanted to make things right, and to question God (which, for your information, we as sinners don’t really have a right to), you’d be talking to God right here, right now, right from the start, instead of talking to your blog. Which, in my opinion, is silly because it shows that you don’t really want to get this sort out, properly.
There was a girl who just started working in a cotton factory. Before she was showed to her workstation, her supervisor specifically told to her to go him whenever she has a problem, especially when the ball of cotton which she was working on got tangled up.
Two months later, her ball of cotton really got tangled up while she was working on it. But she thought, I’ve been working in this factory for 2 months and I pretty much know how things go. So she decided to try fixing the entangled ball of cotton herself.
An hour later, her supervisor while doing his rounds walked pass her workstation and asked her if anything was wrong. She told him that her ball of cotton got tangled up and she’d attempted to get it fixed. But by then, she’d made an ever messier job out of it.
Her supervisor took over and the tangles got undone in 5min. Before he left, he told her, In future, bring your mess to me.
Bring your mess to God, I can’t tell you more than this.
June 6, 2009 at 3:15 pm |
We don’t have the “right” to question God? Everyone has the right to question the unprovable and invisible. A muslim person would tell me the same thing, but you openly reject Allah.
My questions on this blog aren’t because I’m looking for the religious version of truth. This is simply a forum for open discussion on the subject.
I brought my mess to God for the first 33 years of my life. Belief in a god gives many comfort, I simply view it as unnecessary and in many cases harmful when people lose touch with reality.
June 6, 2009 at 3:52 pm |
theBEattitude, first let me say I ADORE that name!
Secondly, I have always been told by folks who are religious that I should never question what their god does, because he has a plan. WHAT plan? WHY are children molested by their parents? WHY are wives abused and murdered by their husbands? WHY are there people out there abusing animals? WHY are there people out there murdering and bashing people because of their sexual orientation? WHAT sort of sick plan is that?
I WILL question anything I see as harmful and evil, no matter whose damned plan it is. Those same religious people tell me that their god gives “us all” free will. IF that is, in fact the truth, and we are not to question the wisdom of their god, then why do humans continually make laws to usurp the free will of others?
Unfortunately, I see over and over again religious people, church leaders, and pope-like people telling us all ONE thing yet DOING something different themselves. case in point CHILD MOLESTING PERVERT PRIESTS BEING MOVED FROM PARISH TO PARISH TO MOLEST MORE CHILDREN! UGH.
Well, I guess I’m agreeing with you, theBEattitude!
June 8, 2009 at 10:39 am |
Alright. I respect what you say about the blog. But you opened this blog as a forum for open discussion on this subject. To prove what? To bring what kind of comfort to yourself? To reassure yourself that there’re people like you, and that you’re not alone. Maybe. I don’t know.
Secondly, if you have really brought your mess to God for 33 years, or the first 33 years for that matter, you wouldn’t be here posting all these stuff now. (trust me, you wouldn’t.)
Thirdly, you had kids right? You remember a period of time when they were so hooked onto candy that they even wanted candies for dinner? And ask questions like why do I have to eat vegetables? What right did they have, then, to question your authority as their parents, to question your care and concern for them, to question your love for them, and to question your knowledge on nutrition?
Perhaps I have used a wrong word and had tried to push my personal opinion forwards. But if you had regarded Him as Your Father for 33 years, you wouldn’t dare to question His authority and His wisdom. Just as I’ve learnt not to questions my Father’s authority and wisdom, both earthly and heavenly father alike.
June 6, 2009 at 3:42 pm |
Hey you, sinner! You’re real careful not to question that god you believe in because your bible says not to, but I noticed you don’t have the same hesitation to judge others, which I believe your bible also says is a no-no.
June 8, 2009 at 10:41 am |
Is submitting a personal comment on ‘a forum for open discussion for the subject’ judging to you?
Perhaps you should buy a new dictionary.
June 6, 2009 at 7:32 pm |
Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he’ll die praying for a fish.
June 6, 2009 at 9:07 pm |
This pretty much sums it up. Christians spend a lot of time praying for a lot of things that could be handled, if they just got up and actually did something.
June 6, 2009 at 10:50 pm
For most Christians, prayer is essentially an insurance plan.
They pray in hope that God will influence the situation. Then they act just like non believers when they get off their knees and do something to help themselves.
June 7, 2009 at 12:57 am
Agree to you. Well, I admit I still pray. But I just pray once about something. I don’t need to pray for almost the whole day. If God wants to help me, he’ll easily understand me. Once is enough.
June 7, 2009 at 3:33 pm
theBEattitude, that is true. Although, I must say, I also know a lot of Christians who never get up and do anything because God’s answer must have been, “No.”
I see prayer and ‘putting it all in God’s hands’ as a great way to never take responsibility for ones life… which is why a lot of Christians I know seem to always be stuck in the high school/college years, mentally. IMHO.
June 8, 2009 at 10:45 am
You think Christians just pray and do nothing? You think they just sit there and pray without studying to get into their desired colleges?
You think they just prayed to get their jobs? You think that Christians do not work for those stuff?
I agree, there’re ‘phony’ or Sunday Christians who appear to be ‘holy’ but are in fact ‘holey’ when abiding in Christ. But that’s no way to generalise because there ARE people who do things and work for things, with, of course, the help from above.
June 8, 2009 at 11:19 am
I know a lot of Christians who pray for the following:
- Money to make ends meet
- The job they are looking for
- The perfect person to be their ‘soul mate’
- To make more friends
- To get into the school they are hoping for
- For direction about what to do in a relationship (of any kind)
- Etc.
I watch them pray… and wait, pray and wait… I used to pray and wait, pray and wait. Then, one of two things happens… 1. they either sit back and say, well, I guess it isn’t going to happen, or 2. they do something about it themselves, and something happens.
Now, when I used to pray and wait, pray and wait… I was too impatient to sit around, so I did something about it. Of course, back then I attributed all the things that happened to some guy in the sky. Now I know better. It wasn’t until I did something about it, that something would actually happen.
After all of those years, I now know that that ‘little voice’ I heard telling me what to do while I prayed… that wasn’t God… that was me. I can get that voice now, by allowing myself to focus on a situation, come up with a solution, and then go do it. It’s not God… and it never was. It was nice thinking that some guy in the sky was telling me what to do… but to be honest… now that I don’t waste a lot of time praying, and spend a lot more time doing… I’m much happier, and more successful in all facets of my life.
June 8, 2009 at 10:42 am |
Give man hope and strength for the Lord, and he’ll die knowing that he’s going to heaven. (:
Besides, fish and bread was prayed for and it was given.
Give man the chance to know the Father and the rest of His life will be provided for.
June 8, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Except when it doesn’t.
June 8, 2009 at 9:12 am |
… and to question God (which, for your information, we as sinners don’t really have a right to)…
Whatever happened to that whole “free will” schtick? Was that false advertising?
If you really wanted to make things right… you’d be talking to God right here, right now, right from the start, instead of talking to your blog.
Someone doesn’t grasp the bit about not believing in God’s existence. BeAttitude should waste time talking to an imaginary friend? WTF?
It’s also sad to see that you support child labor. Little girls should not be working in factories.
June 8, 2009 at 10:48 am |
1. I tell you a story about Willie Wonka. Does that mean that I absolutely adore eating chocolates and encourage you to eat chocolate for 3 meals a day?
2. You think God’s just an imaginary friend? Oh how about the person sitting next to you? What’s he called? Jonathan? Maybe he’s Jesus’ brother!
3. Free will? Freedom is not the ability to do anything you want, please allow me to remind you. Freedom is not a life without boundaries. Besides, you may do all things, but not everything you do is good for you. For example, swear.
June 8, 2009 at 11:34 am
There is no one sitting next to me at present. Please seek professional help.
June 8, 2009 at 9:16 am |
her supervisor specifically told to her to go him whenever she has a problem,
Everyone told the little girl who was enslaved in factory labour that the Supervisor was omniscient, so that she wouldn’t have to go to Him; just as no sparrow ever fell without Him knowing it, He would know when her cotton got tangled. So praying to bring something to His attention was, well, rather stupid.
June 8, 2009 at 10:53 am |
You have kids?
Ever foresaw that he or she’s gonna do something silly in his life? Eating too much chocolate or drink driving? You knew, before you’ve had this kid you knew.
So why do couples still want children then? Doesn’t that sound stupid? You give birth to children whom you know one day will leave you, will love some one else, will one day hurt you, doesn’t that sound stupid?
But even though you knew all these things would happen, that at some point your children will fail you. But you never stopped loving, didn’t you? You never stopped caring. And you hoped that one day, when she needs help she’d go to you. And she’d tell you personally even though you might already have known.
Besides. the supervisor is only omniscient to some people, to those people who don’t recognise nor acknowledge the presence of this supervisor. Just like how some employees refuse to respect their authority in the office.
June 8, 2009 at 11:36 am
And you hoped that one day, when she needs help she’d go to you.
I don’t claim to be omniscient either.
June 10, 2009 at 10:43 am |
Good comment!
June 6, 2009 at 1:40 pm |
Ooh, it all makes sense now. It’s not that homosexuality is also natural in many animal species, it’s because they’re possessed by the DEVILS!!!
How did he come to the conclusion that monkeys/snakes were demon possessed, were they abundant in his area and continually try to bite him or try to convince him to give up christianity?
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5404/fingermonkey1.jpg
The little guy is just waiting for his chance to deconvert someone.
June 8, 2009 at 2:29 am |
He obviously didn`t have much to do with cats! (And I AM a cat-lover, before you all take umbrage!!)
June 10, 2009 at 10:44 am |
haha.
June 6, 2009 at 5:10 pm |
Don’t have a right to question. Why? Because anybody who questions will figure out the con?
There was a little girl who had diabetes. Her mother brought the problem to her god, and prayed over her every day. The girl died. The end.
The difference between plutonearth’s story and mine? Mine was true.
June 6, 2009 at 8:18 pm |
I think the technical term for this is “oh snap.”
June 8, 2009 at 10:55 am |
How did know that the story didn’t really happen?
How do you know that the girl who died went to someplace far worse than earth?
And how do you know that there aren’t people whom God saved and there aren’t people God brought to a better place called Heaven?
How do you know?
You don’t see wind don’t you. So it doesn’t exist?
You haven’t seen the solar system, nor mars, nor venus, not pluto haven’t you? So what makes you so sure of these planets’ existence?
June 8, 2009 at 1:36 pm |
You don’t see wind don’t you. So it doesn’t exist?
Wind can be observed (release a smoke trail) and measured (the instrument to do so is called an anemometer) in various reliable ways. What is the scientific instrument used to measure God called?
And how do you know that there aren’t people whom God saved and there aren’t people God brought to a better place called Heaven?
How do you know pigs aren’t flying out of your *** right now?
June 8, 2009 at 1:40 pm |
Tell me, plutonearth93, how long would it take for you to wake up to reality?
How do YOU know that there isn’t a minute china teapot revolving around the Earth provided that the teapot is too small to be detected by even the most sophisticated of telescopes?By you own twisted “logic” this divine teapot of my must exist then eh? And by the mere fact that you can’t disprove my teapot, you must “respect” my theory even if I drive planes into your skyscrapers and kill millions of innocent people eh?
Swap the words “china teapot” with any other object you can imagine and it makes just as much sense.
How do YOU know?
June 8, 2009 at 1:57 pm |
A friend of mine recently told me a story about how someone who he and his fellow Christian friends had prayed for to be saved for years died.
Apparently, the person was very strong against being proselytized so the odds are, they died without being saved, despite intercessory prayer for years along with active preaching.
So, what this says is, God wants some people to go to hell. Even with the watered-down definition that has only been used recently, that God only answers prayers that fall in line with His will and that are indistinguishable from natural events, this should have been a prayer that God answered.
Yet, God didn’t answer that prayer, and that person, who by all accounts was actually a very kind, outgoing, giving person, is now burning in hell for no reason whatsoever.
Why wouldn’t God have answered that prayer to keep someone from going to your hell? Why would such a punishment exist for such an arbitrary infraction? Further, isn’t God responsible for not answering the prayer or honoring the work that His followers were doing?
How do you know it ISN’T made up, or does that question only apply to your claim? Your the one who doesn’t have any evidence to support the claim that your “Hell” or “Heaven” exist. Seeing as how it’s equally impossible to prove that Valhalla doesn’t exist, why don’t you believe in that, as well?
June 9, 2009 at 2:33 pm |
He believes in Heaven – a totally fairytale “make-believe” place – but not in Pluto or Mars, because he`s never actually been to them! I`m rolling around on the floor laughing!!
June 7, 2009 at 10:57 am |
Wow, “Every Which Way But Loose” makes sense now. It wasn’t Clint Eastwood in a buddy film with a primate, but a struggle against his own inner demons, as typified by the devil’s own sock puppet, the orangutan.
June 8, 2009 at 5:23 pm |
@plutonearth: I’ll show you mine if you’ll show me yours. Here’s a link to my story, as reported by Fox News, so you’ll know it’s true. Ahem. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html Now, got a link to yours?
As to the rest of your… point, wind can be measured by scientific instruments. Also, I can physically feel it, visually see it move things, and hear the sound it makes blowing through the trees. I can also replicate the effect using a fan. We call this kind of stuff evidence. So yeah, I believe in wind.
And yes, I actually have seen several non-earth planets. Hint: try looking up in the sky when it’s dark. Mars is the red one. Of course, you’ll need to do a little bit of research or listening to someone who understands science before you’d know exactly where to look and when, so you will probably never find them. As for the ones I haven’t seen by looking up in the sky, I can look at photos of them. If you’d like to see them too, start here: http://pds.jpl.nasa.gov/planets/ (Warning, more thinking and science is at that link.) Do you have any photos of your heaven? And do you have a link?
God? According to the bible, god is an evil monster who murders Egyptian children, insists on human sacrifice, torments people by killing their families and ruining their lives just to win a bet… I could keep going for a LONG time, but I think you get the idea. Evil. Monster. Do you honestly think even if your fairy tale sky demon was real I’d want anything to do with him? No. Way.
June 10, 2009 at 10:47 am |
Is there a devil?
June 10, 2009 at 1:38 pm |
Nope. But your imaginary one has a lot less blood on his hands than your god does.
June 12, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Reference, please?
June 12, 2009 at 12:10 pm
What, nevermind, just realized this comment doesn’t make any sense.
Sorry about that.
June 9, 2009 at 1:36 pm |
“But even though you knew all these things would happen, that at some point your children will fail you. But you never stopped loving, didn’t you? You never stopped caring. And you hoped that one day, when she needs help she’d go to you. And she’d tell you personally even though you might already have known.”
I would never do this to my kids if they stop loving me and rebel against me:
Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open
I would never do this to anybody:
Hosea 13:4-8
“But I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out of [a] Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.
5 I cared for you in the desert,
in the land of burning heat.
6 When I fed them, they were satisfied;
when they were satisfied, they became proud;
then they forgot me.
7 So I will come upon them like a lion,
like a leopard I will lurk by the path.
8 Like a bear robbed of her cubs,
I will attack them and rip them open.
Like a lion I will devour them;
a wild animal will tear them apart.
I am not sorry, but the parallel father – children does nort work with god.
June 10, 2009 at 10:50 am |
For and to whom is Hosea written?
June 10, 2009 at 10:59 am |
The Jews, supposedly, Rich!
June 10, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Thank goodness I am not Jew and I wasn’t living at that time. I wouldn’t want to have that god today.
Why would anybody want to have something to do with the god pictured in the bible? Scary.
June 9, 2009 at 1:39 pm |
I agree with Heidi, only an evil monster would do stuff like that, fortunatelly, he never was real, he was a non-existing fabrication of the mind of ignorant men.
June 10, 2009 at 10:43 am |
I didn’t know Martin Luther said that. Interesting.
And it is okay to question God. Nothing wrong with it at all.
Abraham questioned God. Moses questioned God. David did it all the time in the Psalms. A bunch of New Testament folks questioned God (Peter on the roof, Ananais, Apostle John on the island, etc.) — questioning isn’t the problem (it’s actually a very good thing; see 1 Thessalonians 5:21).
The problem is doubt. We can question God, but we shouldn’t doubt Him.
June 10, 2009 at 12:38 pm |
Rich, Martin Luther said many things, please see this:
http://www.2think.org/hii/mlquotes.shtml
June 10, 2009 at 1:37 pm |
You can go on not doubting him all you want, Rich. I’m going to stick him on the fiction shelf with Quetzalcoatl. He demanded human sacrifice, too.
June 12, 2009 at 12:10 pm |
Okay.
June 10, 2009 at 4:40 pm |
I started out questioning God, but then a snake and a monkey told me to doubt God. They are very deceptive creatures.
June 11, 2009 at 7:59 am |
Haha, that’s what I hear.
June 11, 2009 at 3:53 am |
Before I quote someone, I make sure to have a context for the quote to verify why they said what they said.
Do you have a context for your quote… or even a reference to Luther’s Works? If not, perhaps you should revise your blog entry to reflect the lack of research that went in to posting the quote. If you do have a context, please provide it.
Propaganda is not effective when proper documentation is given.
Regards,
James Swan
June 11, 2009 at 8:37 am |
The post has been updated with the source.
June 11, 2009 at 11:49 am |
Just by stating ‘Table Talk’ as a source does not necessarily mean it was from Luther. Mathesius and others were also often recorded in Table Talk, and a lot of times it wasn’t verbatum but from memory of those were heard the speaker.
Can you give the entire context of this passage and show us where it says that it was specifically Martin Luther?
June 11, 2009 at 4:38 pm |
Thank you for adding a source, “Table Talk, from The Collected Works of Martin Luther.” Which “Collected Works of Martin Luther” are you referring to? English? German? Latin? I can assure you, your quote is not in the current English edition of Luther’s Works.
The Tabletalk is divided by number. That is, each particular saying has its own number. Which number is this quote?
Am I correct that you haven’t read the context, nor are you familiar with the background to the Tabletalk? Luther didn’t even write the Tabletalk, and the volume has changed quite dramatically over the years.
The Tabletalk purports to be what Luther said, based on eyewitness accounts. However, if you read the introduction to the Tabletalk found in LW 54, you’ll note many of the “utterances” are not reliable, nor even included in the current edition. I find it quite suspicious that the current edition of the Tabletalk doesn’t include the “snakes and monkeys” comment. There isn’t a cover up either. The editors of Luther’s Works made sure to include many of the most controversial sayings.
I’ve never visited your blog here before, but I did take a moment to look over your “about me” link. You say, “the Bible is too flawed to be a valid record.” If your research into the Bible is similar to your research into Luther, I suggest you start over. Quoting Luther out of context via the Tabletalk (not even something Luther wrote) is, frankly, propaganda.
June 12, 2009 at 12:39 pm |
The authors of the Gospels wrote “eye-witness” accounts of events they didn’t even witness. Every quote of Jesus is out of context by unreliable and unknown authors. That is, frankly, propaganda.
June 13, 2009 at 12:37 pm |
The earliest sources we have of Alexander the Great are 400 years after his death. So according to your logic, he never existed.
There is more manuscript evidence for the synoptic gospels then any other writings in history. Even secular scholar Bart Ehrman is forced to admit this. And we do know what Paul, John, and Peter wrote. Those are contemporaneous sources. They were all eye-witnesses of Christ (the risen Christ in Paul’s case).
Every quote of Jesus is out of context? How do you know this?
June 13, 2009 at 12:43 pm
You’re also conceding to the charges previously raised against you that what YOU are doing is propaganda, because now you’re only changing the subject to the Scripture supposedly being propaganda.
Hypothetically, if Scripture were propaganda, then why do you get to do it but not Scripture? Why do you get to stoop that low but no one else can? Are you God?
What is your foundation for real morality in the first place whereby propaganda is really wrong?????????
June 13, 2009 at 12:53 pm
You do realize that you’re not accomplishing anything here, right? I honestly don’t care if the Martin Luther quote is correctly attributed. It’s still funny even if he didn’t really say it. Thus the reason *I* didn’t run off and look it up. It just doesn’t matter to me. And it does not affect my religious beliefs whether it’s true or not. Nor does your post.
If your god flies down out of the sky right now and tells me “hi, I’m real,” I’m still not going to worship him. And in fact, if he even expects me to listen to a word he says, it had better start with some explanations or refutations of his vile biblical behavior.
June 13, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Actually, I think I’m going to go unsubscribe to this conversation, because I’m pretty thoroughly bored of it by now.
June 13, 2009 at 12:58 pm
I didn’t say Jesus didn’t exist. I said the accounts are fabricated and/or fictionally embellished greatly. I don’t want to get into a huge debate, but historically it is highly unlikely John wrote the gospel of John. And the hypocrite Paul supposedly “met Jesus”, but taught to believe without seeing.
No quote written 40-70 years after it was said could ever be considered accurate or credible.
June 13, 2009 at 1:04 pm
What you`re claiming here is absolute rubbish Cameron, although I too earnestly believed it all at one time! Yoy need to take a look at http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ , which, though controversial in places, is a real eyeopener. They have almost convinced me now that the “Apostle Paul” (and most of the other “Apostles” too) never really existed. Cetainly, even when I was an evangelical Christian it was obvious that the Apostle Paul of the Acts of the Apostles was a completely different person to the author of the so-called pauline Epistles!
June 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm
(Sorry, that comment “posted itself” before I`d finished it!) It became clear to me many years ago that the Jesus of the Gospels was not an historical character, even if he was based on a real person (or persons). The Dead Sea Scrolls make this absolutely clear, and the evidence from Josephus, which used to give evangelicals such comfort and support, is now known to be completely bogus!! The clincher, though, is that Nazareth is now known to NOT EVEN EXIST in the “Time of Christ”, so how on earth can anyone take seriously ANYTHING that is recorded about him in the Gospels?
June 13, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Heidi, how about I just start threads which are about you and make fun of things you’ve never said, but pretend you said them. I have a blog and we can get that started since it’s nothing but shits and giggles to you.
It’s Biblically consistent for you to say that you wont worship your Creator, even if He manifests Himself to you. Rom 8:6-8 explains why that is.
And how do you account for a real morality whereby certain behavior is really vile? All is permissable unless there is an eternal, unchanging, all-good standard. Where does your standard come from? Or are YOU God?
June 13, 2009 at 1:41 pm
barriejohn, there are secular scholars who accept Paul’s writings as historical sources. So you are offering what’s called ‘extreme skepticism’.
June 13, 2009 at 1:48 pm
the beattitude, John also wrote Revelation which tells of Christ. That’s what I was talking about. That is a contemporaneous source. And Paul’s writings would still be considered contemporaneous, even if he hypothetically never saw Christ.
The synoptic gospels also tell of what Jesus did. So you accept what He did but not what He said b/c it was recorded 40-70 years after, especially when that was a time period when memorization was greatly emphasized? And if not, then to be logically consistent you shouldn’t believe that Alexander the Great did either.
June 14, 2009 at 3:25 am
“Extreme scepticism”? Too bloody right, mate! And how arrogant all you christian pricks are when you make the ridiculous and absolutely insulting claim that atheists have no “real morality” – we`re a lot more moral than many of the Christians in society today, I can tell you!! What sort of “morality” is it, too, when a person only does good because his “God” tells him to, and is only restrained from doing evil because he might be punished for it in the hereafter? You must be barmy!!
June 14, 2009 at 8:57 pm
barriejohn, you can say you’re more moral, but if I am to take you seriously on that, and assume a real morality (which requires an eternal, unchanging, all-good standard – which I call God), then you would be borrowing from my worldview. Otherwise, how do you account for your supurb “morality” apart from this criterion? You can’t say you’re more moral when you haven’t accounted for the very thing you’re supposedly more of.
And if atheists live like there is no morality they are being completely consistent with their own worldview. Who’s going to judge them? Atoms? Atheist Vladamir Lennon didn’t act like there was a real morality when thousands were killed who opposed him during the French Revolution.
June 14, 2009 at 8:59 pm
you also sound like you’re from Australia. You should go stick your hand in an alligator’s mouth. It might wake you up out of your rediculous arguments.
June 13, 2009 at 5:16 am |
The title of your blog includes, “happy are those who ask questions.” I’ve asked a few questions on the material you’ve posted, and haven’t gotten any satisfying answers.
There are those of us that really do pursue truth from a theistic worldview. We find it fascinating, if not absurd, when non-theists infer that belief in a Christian worldview is done at the expense of truth, and then they’ll post quotes (like the one you’ve used) without having a context or even reading the context, from a book that the person being quoted didn’t even write.
I find it fascinating that you will admit candidly admit:
“I am no longer a believer in Jesus or the god of the Bible. Through my recent experience, it has become undeniably obvious that the Bible is too flawed to be a valid record. Without the validity of scripture, there is no validity to Jesus. And with the evidence that prayers aren’t answered, miracles don’t happen, bad things happen to good people, and evil things are done by Christians throughout the world, I couldn’t be a sheep any longer.”
On the other hand, you won’t candidly admit you haven’t even read the context of the Luther quote you’ve used, you don’t know where to find it, and you weren’t even aware the Tabletalk wasn’t written by Luther.
If you really believe “happy are those who ask questions” as a means of arriving at truth, then you should be quite pleased with admitting you’ve used Luther quotes far less than honestly.
If on such a basic level as admitting your poor methods of using a source and documenting it correctly is beyond your ability, I can’t help but question how honestly you’ve done your alleged Biblical “research.”
June 13, 2009 at 1:05 pm |
I’ve done nothing dishonest. I gave you the source of the quote. If I’m wrong, then call me on it. Otherwise save your apologetics and rhetoric for someone who wants to hear it.
June 13, 2009 at 6:09 pm |
You’ve ignored answering questions that would prove if you’ve ever even seen or read the source or context of the quote. When I quote someone, honesty and integrity demands I back up my quote by providing an accurate reference and a context when asked. If I cite someone, it’s my responsibility to prove I’ve handled a source accurately. You haven’t done this at all.
I know you don’t want to “hear” this, but I’m simply following the protocol of your blog “happy are those who ask questions.” Here are the questions again: Can you provide a context for this quote, or an actual reference with a Tabletalk number? Here’s a further question: are you simply doing a cut-and-paste job from some website? Let’s see how honest you really are.
June 14, 2009 at 3:16 am |
You are just boring the pants of us with your stupid nit-picking, JS! Normally I would be in agreement with what you are saying about quoting sources etc, but I really don`t see the problem here. I was about to say that there must be about 1.5 million references to “Table Talk” on the internet, so I just looked it up out of interest and, lo and behold, it is 1,410,00, so I wasn`t very far off!! Some of the sites have transcripts of a great many of the comments that are attributed to Luther, so you can check them yourself. If you are going to resort to the usual evangelical ploy of saying “Perhaps he didn`t really say these things”/”Perhaps he was misquoted”/”Perhaps there is some mistranslation” etc, as you all do when obvious inconsistencies and inaccuracies are revealed in the “Holy Bible”, then please clear off with your whingeing and whining to some other site, preferably a sadomasochist one where they may actually enjoy suffering such mental torture!!!
June 14, 2009 at 3:36 am |
PS Although very amusing, and quite outrageous by modern standards, there is nothing really unusual about Luther`s observations. Most people in his day thought that demons lived in lakes and animals, etc, and that they were the cause of illness (both physical and mental) and natural disasters of all kinds. The fact that his comments were recorded for posterity just gives us an insight into the mindset of a religious fundamentalist – very apposite at the present time I think!
PPS I have stated elsewhere, before members of the Cats` League threaten to firebomb my house, that I am in fact a “Cat Person”, but I think I can state without fear of contradiction that my friend`s black cat (with whom I had a sort of love/hate relationship) was indeed possessed by the devil! I am almost certain, in fact, that he did spit fire on one occasion!!
June 14, 2009 at 8:39 pm |
barriejohn, don’t be so quick to pick on meidieval beliefs as being foolish. Not much has changed since then. Look at this blog for example. You have people claiming that God doesn’t exist, yet live like morality is a reality. Yet, there needs to be an eternal, unchanging, all-good standard for morality to exist. I call that God. People would rather leans towards Naturalism, whereby “morality” comes from atoms banging around.
And it was Deists like Newton, Galileo, and Copernicus who had some of the greatest scientific breakthroughs.
June 14, 2009 at 7:52 am |
I’m unable to locate Table Talk “1,410,00,” do you have a web link? (The number seems to be mistyped)
Without context the quote is useless. What is the conetxt of the citation? How confident can we be that Luther actually said it? If we cannot be confident then we cannot be sure it is wisdom “from” Luther, can we?
I mean, the use of the quote by theBEattitude (and other atheists/agnostics on the web) is obviously meant to disparage Luther, and by extension Christianity. If there are contextual problems, or even worse, we cannot be sure Luther even said it, that does not bode well for thtBEattitude’s use of sources does it? Apparently he didn’t even check up on it.
June 14, 2009 at 8:24 am |
If you type “Martin Luther Table Talk” in your address bar on msn, it will come up with 1.4 million “results” – about half that number on Google. You can then while away your hours reading what Martin Luther is REPORTED to have said, though by your logic (or lack of it) we can no longer be sure now that anyone in the past actually said any of the things that are attributed to them, since we were not there to witness those comments! And what on earth is all this silly talk about “context”, for Christ`s sake? You seem to be willfully ignorant that these views of Luther`s were nothing out of the ordinary in the day in which he lived! He was just reiterating the ideas of most religious leaders of the time, so rather than making Luther look stupid, the blog entry is just pointing out (as I said above) the ignorance of the day in which he lived. I think it`s just a bit of fun actually, but quite enlightening in view of the ill-informed Muslim fundamentalism that seems to be gaining influence today!!
June 14, 2009 at 8:43 pm |
That doesn’t mean there are 1.4 million Table Talks, but only 1.4 million hits on sites which mention something about Table Talks. And you just forced me to come up with a logical fallacy. Let’s call it the “1.4 million fallacy” whereby just because something has a lot of google hits doesn’t preclude one from needing to find an actual context for a quote which has been used to hit a historical figure over the head with, nor does it preclude denying that that person said it in the first place!
June 14, 2009 at 6:03 pm |
First, I don’t have the time to sift through 1.4 million entries on Google. You don’t have a citatatio, do you?
So far, no one has given a citation to show the quote is even *in* Table Talk, let alone the context of the quote. The search is not for Luther’s table talk, but this quote. When I type this quote into Google I got a lot of skeptic websites returned, and I am not going to sift through the dreck. So, so far neither you nor theBEatitude have supplied a citation except “Tabke Talk”. If that is how you want to do things I really don’t care. It is just sloppy *at best*, is all.
As to my alleged willful ignorance, that is pretty funny from a guy who just typed in how many hits he got from goggling “Table Talk” and then attempted to brush aside a simple request for information. IOW, you have not advanced an argument, you are just waving your hands. Again, if this is how you want to do things, fine. Just be advised that no one should take your claims or a feature like this on this or any other website seriously.
Your attempted brushing aside of context just shows that you don’t care about the truth of the claim. It is good enough that someone somewhere stated it is from Table Talk and it was attributed to Luther by someone somewhere.
I am not a Muslim–nice try at changing the subject from your lack of any citation, though. I don’t know where 1 million plus hits for the words “Table Talk” means anything though.
Nor is it fundamentalism to ask someone who tries to use a citation to discredit an idea to supply the source and context of said citation. That would be called intellectual honesty, something apparently in short supply here.
Or, theBEattitude could just say that this “feature” is not to be taken seriously at all, it is really just a joke. If it is just a silly joke, then OK. If not, then how can anyone take his claims of investigation seriously?
June 15, 2009 at 10:14 am |
It really doesn’t matter how many “millions” of hits one gets to the Tabletalk. Researching the Tabletalk is not so difficult. In English, there are two major versions: the one contained in the current English edition of Luther’s Works, as well as an older English edition available on-line on many websites. Google Books is also uploading Luther’s Works in Latin and German, making primary sources accessible. The secondary references in some of the older Google Books has also made locating obscure quotes much easier.
The bibliographic information given on this blog in regards to the quote is too ridiculous to even begin a search. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out Luther actually wrote this or even believed what is purported in the quote. What I found interesting was that a person who researched the Bible and concluded ” there is no validity to Jesus” was quite content to host a series of out-of-context Luther quotes, from sources he’s never read.
On the hand, one of my “hobbies” has been tracking down obscure Luther quotes. Many times, what is being put forth as an outrageous Luther quote isn’t at all outrageous when a context and background information is presented.
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