A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell; mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
- Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
The Christian’s Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes… The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession — and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry… There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.
- Mark Twain, Bible Teaching and Religious Practice
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.
- Mark Twain, Following the Equator
It is plain that there is one moral law for heaven and another for the earth. The pulpit assures us that wherever we see suffering and sorrow which we can relieve and do not do it, we sin, heavily. There was never yet a case of suffering or sorrow which God could not relieve. Does He sin, then? If He is the Source of Morals He does — certainly nothing can be plainer than that, you will admit. Surely the Source of law cannot violate law and stand unsmirched; surely the judge upon the bench cannot forbid crime and then revel in it himself unreproached.
- Mark Twain, Fables of Man
Tags: Agnostic, Atheism, Atheist, Bible, Christianity, Doctrine, God, Holy, Illogical, Jesus, Mark Twain, Religion, Religious, Skeptic, Theology
June 12, 2009 at 11:28 am |
Did the post just change?
June 12, 2009 at 11:35 am |
I added a couple additional quotes.
June 12, 2009 at 5:21 pm |
“There was never yet a case of suffering or sorrow which God could not relieve.” The problem of tragedy, suffering, and injustice is a problem for everyone. By abandoning belief in God, does it somehow make the problem of suffering easier to handle?
June 12, 2009 at 5:57 pm |
I didn’t choose to abandon my belief in God to help me cope with suffering. Suffering happens to everyone and we all cope in our own ways.
Religion does help people cope with grief and suffering, I won’t argue that. But I see it as little more than a way to pacify yourself with false hope. I would rather focus on today, good or bad, than waste time in false hope of a fairy tale afterlife.
June 13, 2009 at 12:00 pm
“I see it as little more than a way to pacify yourself with false hope. I would rather focus on today, good or bad, than waste time in false hope of a fairy tale afterlife.” —
False Hope — I believe that my faith – with regards to suffering – is less about Circumstances and more about Character. It’s less about “around” and more about “through.”
I really don’t know much about the Afterlife – but in the Here and the Now, my faith helps me deal with the pain of my divorce in a healthy way. A way that doesn’t leave me bitter. I surely DO have many questions and even Doubts about the “Afterlife.” But I can say – even if there is NO heaven and hell – I would still be a Christian
And honestly I do think that in THIS generation, there is much less focus on the Afterlife and more on the Present. It’s not just about some big, nebulous pay-out in the end, you know?
June 12, 2009 at 6:33 pm |
To a great degree, I believe “abandoning” god does make it easier to handle. All too numerous occasions in which religion has been directly responsible for the suffering, whether through implicit, though nevertheless repressive, daily customs and through explicit repression – of the mind and body. That is one of the great ruses of religion: the suffering created by religious practice is disguised and presented to us as everyday life problems. Go to a third world country with a despotic government – the people have been so indoctrinated into the oppressive forms of religion that they are convinced there is nothing they can do about their lot in life. Imagine those same people honing their mental skills and gathering together in the name of power rather than wasting time practicing inane daily rituals and gathering to praise a god that has abandoned them.
Yes, abandoning god does ease the suffering. It dissipates the fog that hides our true strength of humanity. If god ever existed, then mankind was abandoned by its creator long ago.
June 12, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Nesta, very well put. I love that last sentence, it may become my new email signature.
June 13, 2009 at 12:11 pm
“To a great degree, I believe “abandoning” god does make {suffering} easier to handle.”
I was once sat through a church service {at Imago Dei in Portland, Oregon} with a man from an organization called International Justice Mission out of Washington, D.C. He directly addressed the subject of suffering {I know there is a podcast of it on iTunes if you are interested} – he was part of the genocide investigation in Rwanda in 1994.
I am paraphrasing, but what he said was basically – when we look up at God and say “How can You allow so much Suffering?” God looks back at US and says – “How can You allow so much Suffering?” As Christians, we are CHALLENGED to share God’s Love for the entire World. It is what we are commanded to do – Love God and Love our Neighbors.
June 12, 2009 at 9:16 pm |
| By abandoning belief in God, does it somehow make the problem
| of suffering easier to handle?
No. In fact, sometimes they are harder since we are aware that there is no supreme supernatural thing to cling to. We only have the support and love of family and friends. Perhaps you don’t find that to be sufficient. Should we fail to overcome our problems, we just say to ourselves, ‘well, that’s life’ instead of such and such ‘works in mysterious ways.’
People who claims that faith help them cope with grief and suffering, good for them. I sincerely hope they enjoy their particular brand of placebo.
We on the other hand will dwell in the arduous reality.
June 12, 2009 at 11:31 am |
I’m glad Mark was able to ask these questions even when questioning like this wasn’t as easily accepted.
June 12, 2009 at 4:19 pm |
I’m not much of a religious historian, but actually it may have been more accepted to question things like this in Twain’s time than it is now. Early in the 19th century Thomas Jefferson wrote a version of the Bible in which he removed all the miracles, can you imagine a President doing that today? Most of the U.S.’ 18th-century founder’s were deists, believing in a higher deity but rejecting much of the dogma of Christianity. Could that happen today? Not likely.
Religious intolerance and the influence of religion in the public sphere ebbs and flows in cycles over time, it hasn’t been a continuous lessening. Perhaps we’re just now starting to emerge from a recent century-long wave of Puritansim?
June 12, 2009 at 12:45 pm |
All fantastic quotes from a wise man, who in so many ways, was well ahead of his time. I’m so glad that he existed during a time when some common sense and critical thinking was sorely lacking in this country.
June 12, 2009 at 12:49 pm |
Twain wrote a snarky book on Christianity and the Bible, Letters from the Earth, which was published posthumously.
Another link
June 12, 2009 at 2:54 pm |
[...] via Rational thoughts from a religious skeptic. — Mark Twain « the BEattitude. [...]
June 12, 2009 at 3:12 pm |
Great quotes, thank you for posting them. I’m really enjoying your blog here, thanks for doing it.
June 12, 2009 at 4:00 pm |
Wow, amazing dude, I think he does indeed raise some valid points!
RT
http://www.privacy-tools.echoz.com
June 12, 2009 at 4:24 pm |
Yes he was a great man and ahead of his time. I am surprised that some of the more extreme fundies don’t protest his books more.
June 12, 2009 at 4:42 pm |
Twain, by saying there is no deity, cuts off the very legs of his argument saying that God is unfair, unjust, or evil. He can’t have it both ways. If there is no God, fine; but he cannot then make such moral claims that anyone including this nonexistant god could then be evil.
Under whose authority does he make such claims to know what is good or bad? He has no more authority on the subject than Hitler under his own logic.
June 12, 2009 at 5:03 pm |
Twain is giving the reasoning why he believes their is no deity. Because the deity described in the Bible is evil, unjust and illogical.
The Bible didn’t invent what is good and bad. Every religion on earth has rules of morality. Not only is it not unique to Christianity, religion is completely unnecessary to establish laws and rules of good and bad.
June 12, 2009 at 7:28 pm |
If morality is relative, and the Bible is a fictional book, then he has no logical right to say, “God is evil”. What if the writers of the Bible considered slaying of babies consistent with their version of good? Who is Twain to say anything otherwise? Where does he get his morality? If it is only a societal or personal choice, then Hitler is no less good than Twain, and words like good or bad are as fictional as his god. Twain can believe that, he just can’t judge anything that happens in the Bible as bad if he TRULY believes it.
June 13, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Let me ’splain it to you real slow: if someone else makes a truth claim that you don’t believe, you may argue against it by using their proposition and exploring the consequences. You do not have to share their belief to do so. For example, even if I don’t believe in God, I could argue about what Christians propose about God being the root of all morality. I could say, “IF God actually existed, and He is supposedly moral, then why did He carry out, or command others to carry out, so many things in the Bible which we know to be immoral? Such as committing genocide and killing babies?”
Next up, your understanding of nontheistic and nonabsolute morals is woefully inadequate. If morals don’t come from God, where do they come from? Do we reason about what is good and bad? We do. And therefore can we say that X is morally superior to not X because it based on a better understanding of the evidence, or a more convincing rational argument? We can.
An example: Once science demonstrated that ingestion of lead is bad for babies, we reconsidered whether it is morally acceptable to allow children to ingest lead paint. Based on a better understanding of the facts, we as a society said no, it is not moral to allow children to ingest lead paint, and we banned it.
June 12, 2009 at 6:48 pm |
Why do you believe that a higher being must give us our morals? If morals come from a higher being, why are there so many conflicting morals on earth?
Each individual has the authority to decide what is right and wrong for himself. Society is the authority we as people look to for what is right and wrong for groups of individuals. Are either of these always right? No there are many times that both the individuals and society have been wrong but they tend to correct themselves.
June 12, 2009 at 7:33 pm |
So how did society making up morality work out for Rwanda and Darfur? You have no right to judge any genocide as being evil if it’s only societal choice. There has to be a third party who can impart a morality or else morality is meaningless.
June 13, 2009 at 4:46 am
I do have a right to say something is evil in my view. I don’t see that your christian view of morality has any right to say genocide is evil. I have read enough of the bible to know that genocide is ok with chrisitianity as long as it is done in the name of god.
I have the right to say that religion is the root of all evil. I base this on the fact that more harm is done in the name of religion then any other cause. You have the right to disagree.
June 13, 2009 at 8:38 am
Baconsbud-
Look up “genocide” in the Bible, you won’t find it…
This stat that “Religion causes more harm than anything has been proven false by Stalin, Tsung, Alexander the Great…
June 13, 2009 at 8:45 am
God wiped out nations of people attempting to create a perfect race. That is genocide.
I had a post several months ago comparing the genocidal acts of Yahweh to the atrocities of Hitler.
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/03/09/if-genocide-is-evil-how-is-god-any-different-than-adolf-hitler/
June 13, 2009 at 8:51 am
Just because they don’t use the term doesn’t mean it wasn’t done. If you go to this blog, http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/, you will find how both your statements that genocide and religion hasn’t done as much harm is wrong. He is doing a series of post about killings either ordered by god or done in gods name. He hasn’t completed it yet but has done 13 entries about it. The other areas religion has done harm is in education and personal freedom. there are more but figure this should keep you busy for a little while.
June 13, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Freeware Gospel: look up “trinity” in the Gospel. Look it up in the whole bleedin’ King James Bible. You won’t find it.
June 12, 2009 at 7:34 pm |
“Each individual has the authority to decide what is right and wrong for himself.”
What could possibly go wrong with that?
June 13, 2009 at 3:16 am
I hope you’re being sarcastic here…
June 13, 2009 at 4:50 am
Plenty can go wrong with it. Dr. Tiller died because someone believed he was doing right. A security guard died because someone thought he was doing right. Do you think because society sees something as wrong people won’t do it? If there is some higher power that decides our morals, why are there so many different views of what is morally right and wrong?
June 13, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Everything can – and will – go wrong with that.
June 12, 2009 at 7:10 pm |
Why I know That There is a God and That He Loves Me
A Personal Testimony.
Years ago doubt was creeping into my head about the Lord and then a miracle happened.
Three years ago 100 members of my church were enroute to a bible camp in the Blueridge Mountains of Virginia. They were traveling in a chartered bus. As they sang hymns, Satan was up to his old tricks. You see, the bus driver was an atheist alcoholic socialist and that day he was filling his coffee mug with vodka. As the bus wound up through the switchbacks, the driver got progressively drunker. Then it happened. It was that day that changed this poor sinner’s life forever. Entering a particularly tight switchback, the besotted driver finally lost control of the bus and it plummeted 1500 feet down into a ravine where it exploded into a fireball incinerating the flock. The only survivor that day was a young boy who was thrown from the bus by his father seconds before it hit the bottom.
This young boy suffered severe brain damage from hitting a rock head first and will have to wear a football helmet and drool cup for the remainder of his life. But his survival proved to me that miracles do happen because God does exist and loves me. The Lord used that accident to bring me back to his flock.
Hallelujah!
Praise Jesus! Just open your eyes to his miracles and you will see them everywhere.
June 13, 2009 at 4:52 am |
Ah this story again. I am still waiting for the link to the news story of this event.
June 13, 2009 at 12:19 pm |
Poe.
June 14, 2009 at 1:53 am |
So yeah…a God that is omnipotent and of perfect benevolence could only spare enough power and love to save ONE KID out of an ENTIRE BUS of people, and have his entire life messed up while he’s at it…
Just proves how much he “loves” us doesn’t it?
I mean, think about it. Its absolutely impossible for an omnipotent and omniscience God to have foreseen this doomed bus trip and just lifted everyone back up onto the road, right? The only logical thing to do here is to save just ONE KID from death and give him severe brain damage as a bonus, isn’t it?
Seriously dude, wake up…Its horrifying…your thoughts…
Maybe he just didn’t give a flying fuck about all those people, did you ever think about that?
June 12, 2009 at 8:49 pm |
“The Lord used that accident to bring me back to his flock.”
How is that right? The lord killed 100 people to give you a lesson? Please read your post slowly and see how wrong is that.
It’s bad enough to use a tragedy as some sort of christian teaching.
June 12, 2009 at 8:55 pm |
and,
“But his survival proved to me that miracles do happen because God does exist and loves me”
That is mediocracy as its best. That was a bad job, I see no miracle there.
June 12, 2009 at 9:24 pm |
I urge you to read Tuttle’s post again. This time with your satire glasses on.
June 13, 2009 at 6:48 am |
ok, got me fooled.
June 13, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Ha! Fooled me as well. I read it twice thinking, “How very odd. What the hell did I just miss?”
June 14, 2009 at 1:55 am |
How do we know though?
By the way, it’ll be a damn big relief if he/she had really been on satire mode cause that seriously got me freaked…
June 14, 2009 at 2:03 am
I have done several different searches on this bus story and all I ever found was someone replying to this same story on another blog. In his reply he said that the most people to ever die on a bus in the USA was 28 and he also asked how you would fit 100 people on board a bus.
June 12, 2009 at 9:18 pm |
[...] Rational thoughts from a religious skeptic. — Mark Twain A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of [...] [...]
June 12, 2009 at 10:13 pm |
It’s amazing that such rational minds existed before Twain, and yet the world is still mostly religious today. I guess you really can’t reason with the religious.
June 13, 2009 at 3:22 am |
That’s funny. Too bad Aquinas, Anselm, Josephus, or Einstein weren’t around to talk about this with you.
June 12, 2009 at 11:55 pm |
Ok, first of all… I cannot believe how bitter you all are. It makes me so angry to read how much disrespect you have for the Lord. Yes, I understand, there are millions of people who suffer that shouldn’t. Nothing I say can make that right, but the way you blame God for it is what makes it wrong.
Yes, He is the Almighty and He can change it, but why should he? Would it really be good enough for you? Or would you just expect more? You would just find something else to throw in His face and whine about. Ill tell you what, if we all live up to our end of the deal and love and praise Him with all of our hearts, I guarentee the hurt, anger, and suffering levels would disintegrate into nothing.
I don’t understand you. I don’t understand why you refuse to feel the love of God. There is nothing that you could do to make God not love YOU, to turn His back on YOU, but yet you do it effortlessly to Him.
My testimony:
I am 15 years old. I grew up in church. My life was great, I was one of the ones who I guess “played church”. I went because my mom told me to and it was the “right thing to do”. Yea, I knew a lot about the Bible and what I should and shouldn’t do.
My first mistake was making friends with the Pastor’s son (that’s a bit messed up isn’t it?). I started smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, and doing anything I could to get high in 8th grade. That’s even more messed up. My mom decided to switch churches for a few different reasons.
I reluctantly started going to the youth group at my new church. I hated it. Absolutely hated having to go to church at all. I got even farther into drinking and smoking, untill I finally gave up. I wanted to end my life, I was done, I wanted to stop the suffering. I was like you, I couldn’t understand why a God so “loving” and “powerful” could let so many people suffer.
A friend of mine saw how badly I was hurting, and talked to me one night as the preacher held an alter call. That is when I gave up my life, and it was the BEST decision I have ever made. I don’t even have the desire to party and get high anymore. My life is the best it has ever been. I am SOOOOO happy!
With this new love, this new feeling of comfort, I know that there is a God who loves me more than I could ever imagine. I want to spend eternity next to the One who makes me feel this way.
I wish I could share it with you. You don’t have to live this life alone and unhappy. I wish you could just see. Please, don’t be so blind and hateful. If you have ANY questions or comments (good or bad I don’t care I would love to hear your thoughts), please, contact me.
emi_janes@hotmail.com
-with much love,
Emily
June 13, 2009 at 1:31 am |
Once again, Emily, placebo.
I would appreciate it if you don’t accuse us of being “blind and hateful.” We do not disrespect “the Lord” since no such thing exist.
Those who you consider does such a thing are ridiculing the concept of god in much the same way you would ridicule thinking adult’s belief in fairies.
Well I guess not openly since you have the option of avoiding those sort of people. We on the other hand do not have that luxury since religion is so prevalent in every day’s life.
If you would find it more helpful, just add “assuming god is real” prior to every negative comment addressing god.
If you wish for any of us to see the glory of the Lord (forgive my sarcasm) then prove unequivocally that very god exists in an objective manner. Not that “I feel him in my heart” stuff. And don’t even say it is I that need to take that extra step of faith. As I have previously expressed, I see ‘faith’ as a placebo. Besides, Moses (burning and talking bush), Thomas (Jesus’ appearance) and Saul/Paul (saw Jesus in a vision) did not need to express their faith before evidence are presented (disclaimer: assuming these events happened due to actual divined intervention instead of an sort of mental illness). I don’t see how your supposedly fair god would reward one person for his/her faith after evidence is presented while punishing those who was not shown miracle thus have no faith.
June 13, 2009 at 3:32 am |
Anselm:
1. If “god” exists, his existence is necessary.
2. If said “god” does not exist, his existence is impossible.
3. Either “god” exists, or does not exist.
4. Therefore, “god” is either necessary, or impossible.
Very few atheists are bold enough to declare God’s existence impossible. Therefore He is logically necessary.
Aquinas:
1. Almost everything we observe on earth is fully dependent: plants-(Co2) cannot exist without animals(O2), reproduction requires two…
2. Therefore a fully independent “un-caused, first cause” must have created almost everything instantaneously, out of nothing.
We can argue about whether the God of the Bible exists, but there logically has to be a deity of some sort.
June 13, 2009 at 5:36 am
that is such a good argument.
June 13, 2009 at 7:00 am
And the first cause was?
How do you assume was Jehova out of all the possible gods?
How do you close that gap?
If there is a “firts cause” how do you know it?
June 13, 2009 at 8:16 am
Brian-
Jehovah is the logical necessary Deity because:
1. Christianity is the only religion that welcomes critique.
(St) Paul commended the Bereans for testing everything he said.
2. The Bible points to Jehovah, and no other book has
endured 20 centuries of critical analysis and survived (despite what you find on the web).
3. Sin.
June 13, 2009 at 8:33 am
Freeware Gospel–
1. The Bible also has very harsh words for doubters.
2. The Bible didn’t survive my critical analysis.
3. Because people do bad things, that somehow proves God is real?
June 13, 2009 at 8:44 am
BEattitude:
1. Where?
2. Can you reply with a link of your “walk” away (I’m new here and not familiar with your story).
3. Knowledge of human imperfection demonstrates need for a “Savior”..
June 13, 2009 at 9:06 am
You haven’t really studied the history of your religion have you. It is only recent that people weren’t imprisoned for taking a stand against religions. There are still states that have blasphemy laws on their books.
“Christianity is the only religion that welcomes critique.”
You don’t see people being hung or burned at the stake for blasphemy as proof that christianity was against being critiqued. People were imprisoned for countless years because they didn’t believe as they were told to.
Because something has endured doesn’t make it the truth. Many of the books that came before the bible were destroyed by those claiming they were the devils works. It is only now that more people are educated and the threat of abuse or death for non belief is for the most part gone that people can now see the truth. It isn’t the bible or the ones that are claiming it is the only truth. Oh by the way the current form of bible hasn’t been in use for 2000 years. That would mean it was put together in 9ce. Depending on which expert you talk to the current bible is between 500 and 1600 years old. Since the roman catholic bible and protestent bible are different, which are you saying is the correct one.
June 13, 2009 at 10:08 am
Freeware Gospel-
1. According to the Bible, everything stemming from doubt is equated to sin.
James 1:5-8
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
Romans 14:23
Everything that does not come from faith is sin.
2. You can read more in my “About Me” page, or the recent post on my reasons for walking away from Christianity:
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/28/losing-my-religion-why-i-walked-away-from-christianity/
3. Human imperfections are genetically part of being a creature on earth. These imperfections do not require a man to be butchered and hung on a cross.
June 13, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Anselm’s argument can be answered that God is impossible.
The argument by Aquinas for a First Cause is answered by quantum physics where some partiucles come into existance randomly, and then disappear.
God chose not to disclose himself by logical deduction or science. Rather, he reveals himself to us through faith. This is the problem rationalists have – there is no way to prove that God exists or confine God into a logical and scientific box.
June 13, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Almost everything we observe on earth is fully dependent: plants-(Co2) cannot exist without animals(O2),
BzzzT WRONG! Plants turn carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen when they photosynthesize, but they burn sugar and oxygen during cellular metabolic activity. There are also microbes which burn oxygen and produce carbon dioxide. Besides which this planet existed for three billion years or so without higher (multicellular with specialized tissues) plants and animals. Whatever dependencies there are between them can be attributed to the fact that they evolved together.
BTW, I don’t think Aquinas knew anything about CO2 and O2 as those were not discovered until long after his death.
Please stop lying to us.
June 13, 2009 at 1:34 am |
Well, first thing, I’m really glad you’re able to get out of the alcoholism/smoking habit. Those can get very expensive. Even if I disagree with a good amount of your post, I don’t want to seem like I don’t care what happened, and I hope you continue to have a happy life.
But I think you’re assuming something about the peoples lives here that isn’t necessarily the case. Bitter and angry is a tone that can come out or seemingly come out in posts, but it’s not like the person lives a horrible depressing life that they feel angry at everything. I find some can be quite happy with their lives. I myself am extremely laidback, and while I may have a more serious look, I like listening to happy songs and generally have a positive outlook. I don’t think that I am an exception, I think most people do live their lives, and aren’t angry peoples. It’s not just a temporary comfort in material goods or some other thing that people may attribute, but making relationships with people, showing love, being loved, caring for your family and friends, making a difference, things like that can bring joy. That’s not uniquely christian either.
Neither is this about “we hate God” either. The assumption here that quite a few people posting on the blog here have is that God probably doesn’t exist, and that if presented with good evidence that God exists, then there’d be people who would them believe God, and hope that they can fix the world soon. But I don’t think we should stop trying to fix it ourselves and doing the best we can with that.
I don’t like the argument “But it has to be by faith because it wouldn’t be a choice if you saw God”. It would be. I can see people all the time, I can still decide whether to like someone or not. All it does is show the existance of them, and that you’re not just following something that didn’t exist in the first place. Is being skeptical such a big sin that the skeptics are damned to go to hell just because they wanted evidence for claims?
Nor did people not try to look for God. Some people spend years, decades trying to, and don’t find God. And they tried. It says in the bible that those who seek will find, but what about those who didn’t find when they sought?
June 13, 2009 at 6:56 am |
Thank you for posting, a few personal thoughts:
1. I am not blaming the lord as I don’t think he exists.
2. I am not unhappy, I am very happy, I enjoy life to the fullest. I have never been this happy.
3. I don’t need to believe in the unprobable to feel love. I love a lot.
4. I am not alone. My life is full of love and smiles, I have a wonderful family and great friends.
5. I am atheist. Which means, I don’t believe in god.
June 13, 2009 at 12:38 pm |
It truly blows my mind that so many people have such a strong, driven need to have other people share their beliefs. Assumptions are made down the line that are rarely true.
I like your post Brian.
Simply stated. To the point.
We’re all beautiful beings. Atheist or Christian or Third Tuesday from Tomorrow nose pickers. Who cares?
Peace, Peace, Peace to All! May All Beings Be Happy and Yippeee that we are free to worship what we want.
Or not!
June 13, 2009 at 7:18 am |
As I said previously:
Religion does help people cope with grief and suffering, I won’t argue that. But I see it as little more than a way to pacify yourself with false hope. If belief in a deity deterred you from suicide, that is obviously a good thing. But that does not make belief in God necessary in my life.
I would rather focus on today, good or bad, than seek comfort from an invisible guy in the sky.
June 13, 2009 at 1:07 pm |
Hi BEattitude – I think this response was for me, yes? I am getting lost in the threads! I asked this in a separate forum I believe and cannot find it – but I was wondering if it is just the Christian God that you take issue with – or if you have sought God/Higher Power in other ways as well?
June 13, 2009 at 5:01 pm
I don’t believe in any gods, but the Christian God is the only one I ever believed in or worshiped. So it is the only god I’m qualified to discuss.
I do not seek an alternate higher power since I do not believe a higher power exists. It seems like a pointless waste of time to me.
June 13, 2009 at 5:49 pm |
I am not sure there is any justification for the statement that religion helps people with grief and suffering. Is there evidence for this. What I have seen people deal with grief and suffering the same way (badly) irrespective of religion or no religion. Anti-depressants are much more effective.
June 13, 2009 at 11:22 pm
There is no shortage of individuals who state (even some in comments on this blog) that religion has helped them in some way, and they typically supply a synopsis of the circumstances. Since each person is the best judge of his or her own business, these statements have to be accepted as evidence (testimony) that religion actually has helped some people. And that implies that others might be helped in the future.
Other kinds of help might help more or achieve a better result, but those propositions are very hard to measure; especially since there are so many factors of personality, education, economic means, etc. which affect what a person will consider when looking for help.
Religion obviously is not helpful for every person, but it obviously is not useless for every person, either.
June 13, 2009 at 8:32 am |
The Beattitude:
“During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live”
can you give me specific verses in the bible where this is so? Most especially the words “the bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live?”
Baconsbud:
“If morals come from a higher being, why are there so many conflicting morals on earth?”
You mean there are conflicting views on stealing, cheating or lying on earth?
June 13, 2009 at 8:39 am |
Just a few beautiful biblical examples about witches and how they should be put to death:
Exodus 22:18
Do not allow a sorceress to live.
Leviticus 20:27
A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.
Leviticus 19:31
Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 20:6
I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
2 Kings 9:22
When Joram saw Jehu he asked, “Have you come in peace, Jehu?” “How can there be peace,” Jehu replied, “as long as all the idolatry and witchcraft of your mother Jezebel abound?”
2 Chronicles 33:6
He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
Micah 5:12
I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells.
Nahum 3:4
all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.
Galatians 5:19-20
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
June 13, 2009 at 9:15 am |
“You mean there are conflicting views on stealing, cheating or lying on earth?”
Yeah there are differences in morality about these. There are even laws within the USA that make stealing from stores ok even though I wouldn’t really call it that. In a time of an emergency it is not unlawful to take without paying for items necessary to stay alive. If you don’t own it and someone else does it is still theft just not illegal.
How many feel it is ok to cheat on their taxes?
Has someone you cared about asked you a question and you knew if you told the truth it would hurt or upset them? Did you lie? The bible doesn’t say any where I know of that little white lies are ok. There are even laws that allow select individuals to lie. Then there are laws that make it a criminal offense to lie. Is it ok for politicians to lie? We all know they do but then we elect them anyway.
How about the people that believe it is best to do unto others before they do unto me?
June 13, 2009 at 9:18 am |
Great quotes!
June 13, 2009 at 10:12 am |
Love your blog and the nature of the discussions – I prefer to take the view that since one cannot prove the existence of God and such a belief is not necessary to lead an enlightened and moral life, then there is no necessity to flip the coin this way or that.
Ditto on the assault of the Christian Bible – it is the scariest work of Christian propaganda.
June 13, 2009 at 10:36 am |
I’ve always found it strange how someone who claims to be an atheist can be critical of a Christian for having “absolute” beliefs and then turn around and make such “absolute” statements themselves. Both groups are absolutists. And why waste so much time discussing a God that doesn’t exist, if indeed you think He doesn’t exist? We get it, OK? Atheists think there is no God. Christians think there IS a God. Atheists think Christians are fools. Christians think atheists are going to hell. What more needs to be said? Can we move on now?
June 13, 2009 at 11:16 am |
1) what absolute beliefs are you referring to? I don’t think any atheist says that they KNOW 100% that God (or a god, doesn’t have to be the christian one) doesn’t exist. These claims are said because the evidence is lacking for them, so the null position is taken until there is good evidence to support it.
2) Why waste so much time? We can write about whatever we want, we can use our time in whatever we want, and people can read whatever they want. You chose to read this blog, you chose to reply.
3) We want people to think skeptically about their beliefs. Whether people deconvert or not, that’s up to them, but some people haven’t really given much thought as to why they believe what they do, other than what they were raised in.
June 13, 2009 at 12:37 pm |
And why waste so much time discussing a God that doesn’t exist, if indeed you think He doesn’t exist? We get it, OK?
If you “get it,” then good for you. But there are many Christians who do not. There are many Christians who wish to use the power of the government to force their religious beliefs and practices on me, so I do not consider it pointless to spend time pointing out the weaknesses in their moral arguments.
June 13, 2009 at 9:26 pm |
So as not to be guilty of forcing my “religious beliefs and practices” on anyone, could you please delineate these beliefs and practices for me? Thank you.
June 14, 2009 at 12:24 pm
I don’t know what your religious beliefs and practices are, so I presume you want to know about religious beliefs and practices that have been pushed by others in recent history, using the power of government:
Any position on any topic for which the sole justification is “my religion says so.”
Examples:
“In God We Trust” on the money, “under God” in the pledge, 10 commandment monuments in or on courthouses. These may be inconsequential of themselves, but there is no nonreligious justification, and wingnuts are constantly using these to justify further incursions across the dividing line between church and state.
Teaching Creationism in public school science classes. There are no nonreligious reasons for rejecting the theory of evolution, and the Creation Week describes in Genesis is certainly not science.
Teaching the Bible as truth in public schools.
Opposing abortions due to a religious belief that zygotes are assigned a soul at the instant of conception.
Opposing stem cell research. Same thing.
Opposing gay marriage. I have yet to see a nonreligious justification for this that is not laughable.
Supporting “abstinence only” sex education when research shows it to be ineffective compared to more comprehensive approaches.
Use of the US military to proselytize for Christianity in occupied countries and on military bases.
“Faith-based initiatives” – federal money for charitable work given to religious organizations which are not required to meet all relevant regulation and oversight applicable to secular organizations.
Invading other countries because God instructed the president to do so.
June 14, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Some localities still have “blue laws” prohibiting buying and selling things on the Sabbath.
June 13, 2009 at 3:09 pm |
What evidence is there that would prove to any of you that God exists? There isn’t any, is there? You have placed all your faith in a belief that God does not exist. Something you cannot prove or disprove. And faith is the evidence of things not seen!
June 13, 2009 at 3:58 pm |
I would want the same type of evidence that was given to those that claim it exist. Ones like Moses, Abraham, and the others that the bible claims god showed himself to them. It isn’t asking much and since it is claimed he did it then, why not now?
June 13, 2009 at 7:07 pm |
I suppose the same logic applies to fairies, unicorns, father christmas etc.
June 13, 2009 at 7:31 pm |
Sorry to have to say this, but it is YOU that is to be the proof that GOD exists. Faith and Belief is the achievement of an evolved human mind, and since you have no faith or belief, you cannot become the proof that GOD does exist. You must blame yourself for this failure; because, humankind is the GOD-Particle that science is looking for, and all a scientist has to do is look in the mirror to find it. I won’t bother to give any details or explanations, herewith, that effort would be useless.
June 14, 2009 at 12:27 pm |
What evidence is there that would prove to any of you that God exists? There isn’t any, is there?
You are right, the evidence that would convince me of God’s existence does not exist. Perhaps that is not what you meant to say, but it is accidentally true.
June 13, 2009 at 7:11 pm |
Baconsbud:
What you have just enumerated are examples of how humans justify their actions that contravenes morality. By the examples you have shown, you have not yet proven that indeed there are conflicting moral views as far as cheating, lying and stealing is concerned.
Beattitude:
So out of these verses you’ve quoted, you’ve figured God is not true?
June 13, 2009 at 7:17 pm |
sure there is a conflict, when you cheat, steal or lie, it is wrong, when i do it, i can and do justify it to myself that it is right or forgivable or understandable. Its the way the mind works.
June 13, 2009 at 7:31 pm |
I just did a blog post on the subject. The god of the Bible is not true for a number of reasons.
June 13, 2009 at 7:59 pm |
I was stating what some individuals believe is morally right or wrong. I have asked the lie question directly of some people and they tend to say something like, there is nothing wrong with telling someone that isn’t true as long as it iis done to keep from hurting their feelings. Is that a lie? I see it as one and that means people that feel this is ok, are saying it is morally ok to tell lies sometimes.
I have known a few people thought it was perfectly ok to cheat on anything as long as they didn’t get caught. They believe that cheating is morally ok. I know some people that in the eyes of chrisitians are cheating on their spouses but they don’t see it that way. They say they have an open marriage.
These examples are how individual morals and societies morals can be in conflict. The lie thing isn’t so much with society but with what christians say is the morals on lying.
Most conflict are individual but there are ones that are between different groups within society. The more extreme white supremecy groups think it is morally wrong for anyone not of the white race to hold positions of power over whites. They claim that this is what the bible teaches them. Most of society completely disagrees.
Society sees murder as wrong. Do you think that the 9/11 terrorist saw what they did as morally wrong? How about Timothy McVeigh?
June 13, 2009 at 7:47 pm |
The answer to your mockery of GOD has already been forseen, and has been answered in the form of a parable [ Matthew 13:24-30 ]. I understand this parable, and I can define it with explicit precision. So, I challenge your so-called superior-intelligence to decipher and define this parable, if you can’t, then you are unworthy of the reward, which comes with the parable, and this is the only hint I will give you. [ False Blame ].
June 13, 2009 at 8:46 pm |
I’ll assume this post was directed at me. This parable is just one of many metaphors of the impending doom for all of us non believing weeds.
A few more loving examples:
If you don’t produce fruit you’ll be cut down and thrown into the fire.(Matthew 7:19, Luke 3:9) Or if we misguide a child away from God we might as well be thrown into a lake with a stone tied around our neck.(Mark 9:42, Luke 17:2) If we don’t produce fruit, we will be cut from the vine and burned in a fire. (John 15:2) We are the salt of the earth, but if we lose our saltiness we can never become salty again and are worthless to God. So we will be thrown to the ground and trampled underfoot. (Matthew 5:13)
Since I can never regain my “saltiness” according to Matthew 5:13, you can save your attempts to re-saltify me.
June 13, 2009 at 9:19 pm |
its amazing….
June 14, 2009 at 7:59 am |
Reginald Selkirk: Please delineate the “religious beliefs and practices” that “many Christians” wish to use the force of the government to “force” upon you. Thanks.
June 14, 2009 at 12:30 pm |
Answered above.
June 14, 2009 at 2:45 pm |
Thank you, Reginald. Please allow me to respond point by point in a very brief manner.
I’m in total agreement with you that having “In God We Trust” on our money, “Under God” in our pledge, and the Ten Commandments posted on some courthouses are totally inconsequential, and therefore are not instances of “religious beliefs and practices” being “forced” on you by the government. And when you speak of “further incursions across the dividing line between church and state”, are you speaking of state incursions into church affairs or visa versa?
I’m not sure how the teaching of creationism in a school science class is “forcing” anything on anyone. You may not adhere to the teachings of creationism, but that’s a totally different issue.
I know of absolutely no public school that teaches the Bible as “truth”. I do know of public schools that teach from the Bible as a stunning piece of literature, which it is. Again, nothing “forced” on anyone.
How does my opposition to abortion “force” you to do anything? Someone else’s pro-choice position is of no consequence to me, in that it doesn’t infringe on my beliefs concerning abortion.
I’ll couple the next two points together due to the fact that apparently you think that simple opposition to a particular behavior or practice is somehow “forcing” someone’s beliefs on you. They’re not. There’s just a disagreement. You’re free to take a side on the issue and so is the next person free to take an opposing view.
“Abstinence only” education works everytime it’s tried, but only when it’s put into practice. A student sitting in an “abstinence only ” class isn’t being “forced” to abstain from anything. The argument on this particular school of thought being less effective than other methods is, again, a totally different issue than someone’s “religious beliefs being forced” on someone.
Out of curiosity, is someone, or has someone attempted to “proselytize” you on a military base or in an occupied country? If the answer is yes OR no, how is proselytization “forcing a religious belief” on you? (Not someone else…..you)
On the subject of “faith-based initiatives”, I find it strange that you apply the “rule of ineffectiveness” to the teaching of abstinence but won’t apply the same rule to this issue. If you did, you would have to admit that these initiatives are generally more effective and successful than their counterparts.
Please provide the direct quote where a President has stated that God told him to invade a country and we will discuss it at that time. I’m not doubting you, I’m just not sure to whom you’re referring. I’m assuming President Bush, but I need to see the exact quote.
“Blue laws” have been around for many years and have had the support of a wide range of religious and non-religious individuals. “Blue laws” are struck down when those localities where they’re in effect choose to do so. They’re hardly a “forcing of religious beliefs” on anyone. They’re simply the result of a vote.
Thanks, Reginald. Please let me know if you have any further comments or questions. I value the exchange.
June 15, 2009 at 8:09 am
I’m not sure how the teaching of creationism in a school science class is “forcing” anything on anyone. You may not adhere to the teachings of creationism, but that’s a totally different issue.
So you’re stupid.
June 15, 2009 at 8:38 am
“I value the exchange.”
I do not. Nothing you have said makes a lick of sense.
June 15, 2009 at 8:12 am |
I know of absolutely no public school that teaches the Bible as “truth”.
So you’re ignorant as well. Any school that participates in the National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools.
June 15, 2009 at 8:13 am |
How does my opposition to abortion “force” you to do anything?
That depends on whether your opposition to abortion consists of your not having an abortion, or whether, like many Christians, it consists in not allowing other people to have abortions. Once again, I do not know your personal beliefs and practices, I am talking about what is happening in society.
June 15, 2009 at 8:15 am |
I’ll couple the next two points together due to the fact that apparently you think that simple opposition to a particular behavior or practice is somehow “forcing” someone’s beliefs on you. They’re not.
That depends on whether “opposition” consists in you’re not participating in gay marriage, or whether your “opposition” consists of nto allowing other people to have gay marriage.
You seem rather slow on the uptake.
June 15, 2009 at 8:16 am |
Please provide the direct quote where a President has stated that God told him to invade a country and we will discuss it at that time.
President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq – and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals.
June 15, 2009 at 8:18 am |
The argument on this particular school of thought being less effective than other methods is, again, a totally different issue than someone’s “religious beliefs being forced” on someone.
Your reasoning is twisted and contrived. The fact that abstinence-only is being taught rather than more effective methods is entirely due to religious resistance.
June 15, 2009 at 8:20 am |
On the subject of “faith-based initiatives”, I find it strange that you apply the “rule of ineffectiveness” to the teaching of abstinence but won’t apply the same rule to this issue. If you did, you would have to admit that these initiatives are generally more effective and successful than their counterparts.
I find almost everything you say to be strange.
What do you mean by “effective”? My complaint was that organization receiving government money for “faith-based” initiatives are not held to standards of organizations receiving government money through the regular channels, which includes, for example, rules about discrimination in hiring.
June 15, 2009 at 8:24 am |
“Blue laws” have been around for many years and have had the support of a wide range of religious and non-religious individuals. “Blue laws” are struck down when those localities where they’re in effect choose to do so. They’re hardly a “forcing of religious beliefs” on anyone. They’re simply the result of a vote.
I do not understand how you could honestly claim blue laws are not “forcing beliefs” on anyone. It does not matter whether a vote is the means of enforcement or not.
July 14, 2009 at 8:00 pm |
Call Mark Twain any names you care to, but he described accurately the “god” of the Bible. Read the Book and you see a god who behaves just like he described.
“Hey, Satan! Gat a load of my devoted servant Job. He is perfect, spotless, without blame or blemish or a single fault even. But just watch how – without cause or good reason – I treat him to all sorts of pain, deprivation, anguish and despair, and he will still love me anyway” (paraphrased, but accurate.)
Now the religionists and apologists will of course say Job wasn’t perfect at all, and that he was swimming in self righteousness, and “god” needed to teach him humility. Ok, where does it say that in the Bible? It’s supposed to be error free, right?
Somebody is lying here… either the religionists, or god, who claimed Job was perfect in his eyes.
There is a God, all right. There has to be. No big cosmic flatulence, no slime in a swamp, could dream all this stuff up that the mind of man will never comprehend. Take water as just one example. It follows the law of the Universe and as it gets colder it becomes denser. Well, up to a point, anyway. At about like maybe 4°C it changes its mind and starts to become lighter. Why? Simple. If it kept getting denser it would sink to the bottom of the body of water and then freeze all the way to the top, thereby killing all life in there. But since it floats when in the solid state it acts as an insulator and protects all the life under its blanket.
We humans make the mistake of thinking there are only two alternatives: Bible, and evolution. Trouble is neither makes any sense.
Yet in the very Bible there are clues to the real identity of those beings (father and son) who claim to be gods. In Genesis 48 (I think – my Bible is a bit rusty) it refers to “god” as an angel straight out. And in Psalms there is a reference to the “covert of his wings”. Well guess what? God doesn’t wear wings. Only angels do.
There is a third alternative. A Supreme Being created all this, including angels who ran amok and made us humans pawns in their cosmic chess matches, and all this religion crap has been about a spiritual mind game they ran.
Funny. Those folks in the Bible had a better grasp of who and what their god was than we do today.
Now the folks who get their pain killers or highs from religion will shut their ears, and claim that angel stuff is just being poetic. Well, I happen to see that there is a real Creator all right, and He has a wicked sense of humor. He so messed with the minds of the heads of churches that they put pagan phallic symbols (steeples) on their buildings and thought they were adornments in reverence to God.
But what God was saying to those who “have ears” is that if you go in there you are going to get the shaft.
No, Mark Twain was correct. He portrayed a god who preferred to make bad children. Sure, God eventually does away with evil, only to replace it with worse examples. Twain may have been mistaken in thinking the “god” of the Bible (that praise and worship junky who can’t resist telling the world what a swell gent he is) was the real God, but he was right anyway. The Ultimate Creator of all this suffering keeps the evil going. It’s like He gets off on the good-vs-evil conflict, and gets His kicks watching His creation dealing with the bad.
But is He the benevolent God the god of the Bible (Yahweh) tried to portray himself? Just look at His creation. Children by the thousands die every day from famine, disease, or downright atrocities by their parents.
Look at how He provides for His own creation, and tell me that life is precious to Him.
Naw, I will tell you it shows just how expendable we all are on this orb.
Live like I have and seek God with all your heart, and you may just find Him too.
I don’t recommend the trip.