Richard Dawkins, the author of The God Delusion is helping to launch Britain’s first summer retreat for non-believers. Children will have lessons in evolution and sing along to John Lennon’s Imagine.
The five-day “Camp Quest” in Somerset (motto: “It’s beyond belief”) is for children aged eight to 17. Children will be given lessons to arm themselves in the ways of rational skepticism. There will be sessions in moral philosophy and evolutionary biology.
Dawkins, who is subsidizing the camp, said it was designed to “encourage children to think for themselves, skeptically and rationally”.
I can only “imagine” how much this must anger Christians. How dare someone teach children to question theology and doctrine from thousands of years ago? I personally have fond memories of my church experience as a child. But that is only because my parents weren’t crazy “Fundies” that sent me to Jesus Camp.
For those of you who haven’t seen the horrors of Jesus Camp:
Now let me ask you … and be honest … would you rather send your child to Camp Quest or Jesus Camp?
Tags: Atheist, Camp, Christian, Delusion, Jesus Camp, Kids, Rational, Richard Dawkins, Skeptic, Somerset
June 29, 2009 at 3:01 am |
I have only seen a small part of the video here and it scares the crap out of me.
I think that Camp Quest is a good idea but worry that it will draw a lot of negative attention from the religious. Good thing it is in England, I don’t know that I would send a child to this type of camp in the USA. I wouldn’t have a problem sending a teenager to this type of camp but kids under 12 or so could see it as a negative thing if there are any protesters.
June 29, 2009 at 9:00 am |
“Good thing it is in England, I don’t know that I would send a child to this type of camp in the USA.”
Camp Quest is originally an American concept and implementation. I doubt that there is any requirement for non-belief, even believers could benefit from critical thinking.
June 29, 2009 at 3:23 am |
Is it April The First? I can just see the headlines now: Atheists brainwash children to believe in Evolution! I`m not a great admirer of Dawkins`s approach to the debunking of religion, but this potty idea really takes the biscuit!!
June 29, 2009 at 8:16 am |
I agree that Dawkins tends to be very insulting to Christians. Since he wasn’t indoctrinated into the religion as a child, it is hard for people like him to understand how people can believe in an invisible deity based in ancient theology. Having seen both sides of the fence, I am more understanding and respectful on the debate of religion.
June 29, 2009 at 8:23 am |
He`s far too aggressive, and comes over as arrogant and opinionated, even when he`s right! I don`t think he makes many converts, unfortunately, and in many cases only confirms people in their beliefs!!
June 29, 2009 at 9:03 am |
“Since he wasn’t indoctrinated into the religion as a child”
According to Wikipedia
So he was raised in a religious environment, but apparently not the extreme sort of fundamentism/evangelism which is more common in the USA.
June 29, 2009 at 10:48 am
“Everybody” in Britain is C of E!!
June 29, 2009 at 11:34 am |
Regardless of his upbringing, I still don’t appreciate the way he goes about things.
Talking down to people and ridiculing them is counter-productive when you’re trying to get your point of view taken seriously. While I will certainly criticize the Bible because I think there is a great deal of horrible things in it, I still recognize that it wasn’t my intelligence alone that made me start questioning my belief. It took something to jar me into questioning if whether or not the Bible was actually true. From there, it was my critical analysis of what the Bible actually said and taking an objective look at the world led me to actually decide that God didn’t exist.
Taking the view that Christians only believe what they do because they’re not smart enough to believe otherwise simply doesn’t address this. I know a lot of incredibly intelligent people who believe in Christianity. A good family friend of mine who I respect highly is the Chairman of the Biomedical Engineering Department of a university I attended, the engineering department of which is regarded as one of the top in the nation. Basically, this is an incredibly, incredibly intelligent person.
Keeping this in mind helps keep me in check. I couldn’t criticize this man even if I wanted to, and certainly not for any lack of brilliance. Whatever reasons he has for believing in Christianity are his own and I wouldn’t think to assume it was due to intellectual laziness.
What establishing an “Us vs. Them” mentality does is takes people like that and lump them together with people who are actually nitwits and don’t question why it is they believe what they do. Further, it establishes an elitist mentality in which nitwits don’t believe in God just because they assume only stupid people do.
Of course, what it all comes down to is intellectual dishonesty with an intent to gain something from it. I find that inherently deplorable.
June 29, 2009 at 4:04 pm |
Hardly. I find your vision of Christianity rather infantile. No rational Christian can possibly object to their child being taught to think about theology and question. Theology like most everything else evolves over time.
I find that you trivialize and make fun of faith nearly on every post, so don’t separate yourself from Dawkins. I respect the man, if I fail to applaud his manner of address.
There is a very mature atheism which can discuss the issues with thoughtful, quiet, polite discourse. Then there is the immature who seek to cover up lack of knowledge and intellectual inadequacy by childish drivel. Making fun of believers is I’m afraid the latter.
June 29, 2009 at 4:08 pm
my reply was in response to BEattitude’s remarks about how he is not like Dawkins.
June 29, 2009 at 4:22 pm
That’s because the Bible, itself, is rather silly. The literalist approach to the Old and New Testament is especially so.
There’s a lot in there that’s horrifying, silly, or both. Mostly in the Old Testament, sure, but Jesus condemning a fig tree to die because it didn’t have fruit even though it was out of season is pretty funny and bizarre, too.
It’s not infantile to think it silly that the Greeks honestly thought their gods lived on Mt. Olympus or that a suicide bomber gets 72 virgins in paradise. Why should Christianity get preferential treatment in this regard?
The fact is, people don’t have to take Christianity seriously to respect you. While it’s a big part of who you are, I have no problem with people poking fun at my profession, race, or anything else. I take offense when it’s being used as an implement to make an attack on me, personally, but theBEattitude doesn’t seem to attack people who haven’t first accused him of being incapable of morality or anything along those lines.
If you ask me, ridiculing someone who tells you that you’re nothing short of a monster is fairly acceptable.
June 29, 2009 at 4:47 pm
So yes, Sherry, we have to “respect” you even when you’re condemning about 70% of the world’s population to hell…
We have you respect you when you’re telling us that God created the heavens and the earth about 9000 years after the domestication of the dog.
We have to respect you when you’re torturing kids in Jebus Camps. (And yes, I spelt it that way on purpose)
Respect is not a God given gift to Christians, Sherry. Learn to earn it.
BTW, there is no such thing as “mature atheism” or “childish atheism”. Atheism is simply not believing in a nosy old man in the sky. Is there “mature non-stamp collecting” and “childish non-stamp collecting”?
June 29, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Sherry–
My intention is not insult Christians as a whole. However, I will call a Christian person out if they act in hypocritical or ridiculous ways. Sherry, you can believe whatever you want to, it really doesn’t matter to me. And I don’t disrespect you, I only question what you believe. At times I do trivialize Christianity because I view it as trivial. You view me as infantile, so we’ll call it even.
June 29, 2009 at 5:54 am |
sheesh, i watched jesus camp before but i forgot how disturbing it really was
fuck
June 29, 2009 at 4:07 pm |
Agreed, Fundamentalists are fairly dangerous in theory.
June 29, 2009 at 7:27 am |
I would never send a child to any kind of ideological camp. Especially this one. As Baconsbud says, teenagers maybe if they wanted to go, but come on, people! They are making these kids cry! And how messed up are they going to be later?!
June 29, 2009 at 8:19 am |
Ditto. The whole idea of an ideological camp for children whether it is Christian or atheist is opposite of what Dawkins stands for. He wants “free thinking” kids, but he also wants to tell them how to think.
My belief is to allow your children to experience the world and make up their own mind what they believe or don’t believe.
June 29, 2009 at 8:28 am |
And shouldn`t children have some time for fun and relaxation as well, instead of having philosophy poked down their throats during their summer holidays? It sounds almost as bad as the Vacation Bible School it`s supposed to be set up in opposition to!!
June 29, 2009 at 9:08 am |
“They are making these kids cry!”
May I presume you are talking about the “Jesus Camp” clip? Because there is no mention of crying kids in the “Camp Quest article.
From the Camp Quest article:
I doubt that Camp Quest indoctrinates kids in atheism. Rather, it encourages critical thinking. If religion does not hold up well under critical thinking, so much the worse for religion.
June 29, 2009 at 10:52 am |
Then please reassure me that they will NOT be sitting around the campfire singing “Imagine there`s no heaven”, as the articles state! This sounds too close to Bible Camp for comfort!!
July 1, 2009 at 5:17 am |
Yes, I was talking about Jesus Camp. Sorry, I didn’t make that very clear!
June 29, 2009 at 7:45 am |
Jesus camp is scary.. Yet, watch how many people freak about Camp Quest.. which looks “normal”… just not teaching religion like so many “free” bible vacations, etc. I went to enough of those when I was a kid. UGH.
Some of my personal experience and info on this is at: http://savemenot.wordpress.com/2007/07/31/putting-of-the-call/
if anyone’s interested.
June 29, 2009 at 9:27 am |
I would have no problem sending my kids to Dawkins camp as long as it did not turn into some long rant against Christianity.
June 29, 2009 at 4:50 pm |
But why Christianity specifically though? Its not like Dawkins hates Christianity specifically; he doesn’t like the dogma that religion is promoting.
If it really were along the “long rant” style of things, it’ll probably be more of a long rant against dogma or faith. And then the pizza and pop party begins!
June 29, 2009 at 5:02 pm |
You can teach skeptical thinking without having to mock or deride someone’s beliefs. In any case skeptical thinking is only useful in a rational system. It does nothing to the mature Christian believer.
June 29, 2009 at 11:11 am |
Jesus Camp was not only one of the most frightening movies I have ever seen, it was one of the saddest. I felt a cannon had blasted through my heart after watching that. What a waste of innocence and time and gorgeous summer days which, in my humble opinion, are best spent as a child swimming in the ocean, climbing trees, playing hide-n-seek, eating popsicles. Color me kooky.
This atheist camp sounds wonderful! And I’m not even atheist! “Imagine” is one of the most spiritual songs I know. It’s really cool that those children will be given tools with which to deal with the crazies of the world who are so threatened by anyone who doesn’t see things their way!!!
Thanks for another great post! You consistently rock and make my morning coffee all the more enjoyable.
Peace All.
June 29, 2009 at 12:19 pm |
“Imagine” is my favourite song of all time, and I owe John Lennon a lot, as it was the haunting words of that song that jolted me into really questioning my blind faith in the Bible. I felt that I could really empathise with him in what he was saying so beautifully. However, I was a young man at the time, and I really have to question whether the song is suitable for children. It carries a message which some of them would not really comprehend, and others could find confusing, especially if they have strong religious beliefs. It`s an anthem for those of us who have embraced atheism and reason really. I wonder whether others think the same way? As you say, it`s funny where these blog posts lead you!!
June 29, 2009 at 12:30 pm |
Imagine there’s no heaven —
It’s easy if you try
I only wish. In a world that has been saturated throughout history with fervent wishes about some kind of afterlife, it’s not as easy as it should be. Nevertheless, try it. Imagine not only that there is no heaven, but that no one believes there is. Think how that would change everything! If there are no eternal “rewards” we would all be doing good for the sake of goodness.
No hell below us —
Above us only sky
We now know what is below us—the Earth’s core. It’s hot as hell so to speak, and occasionally the enormous pressures build up to the point where fiery magma bursts out of volcanoes in frightening and devastating displays. This of course is where the myth of a “hell below” came from. Early humans had no idea why mountains would suddenly explode or the skies suddenly lash out with thunder and lightning and icy rains. But today we understand these things. So instead of blaming invisible, furiously irate gods, we can instead take care to avoid injury as much as possible from sudden hurricanes and earthquakes and so on. Then we can move on to enjoying nature’s benevolent, glorious wonders: the mighty Redwoods, so tall you can’t see their tops, the fragrance of gardenias after a gentle shower, and the sight of a hummingbird hovering at a blossom; the magenta sunsets, the star-studded Milky Way that leaves you hushed with awe, the white, puffy clouds being gently urged across a brilliant blue sky at midday, and the first snowflakes of winter gently touching down on the tree branches. There is plenty below us and above us—the skies with all their marvels and the earth just waiting to grow bountiful, beautiful, life-giving vegetation.
Imagine all the people
Living for today…
It is difficult to imagine anything more wonderful. Instead of spending a lifetime looking over your shoulder, worrying if you’ve pleased your imaginary gods enough or courted your imaginary devils too much, imagine just living. Living for today, because that always has been and always will be where we live—today. That doesn’t mean no plans need be made for the future; of course they must. But imagine really and truly living in today. Very few people even take notice of today, spending most of their time looking to yesterday or worrying about tomorrow. Today is a nice place to be, if only we’d see it.
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
This one is a bit more difficult because no one alive today has any memory of a world without borders and boundaries. Still, since this is all about imagination, try at least to imagine such a thing. The Planet Earth—all one place. The only things dividing us would be our various climates. Everything else about us would be the same—our striving for health, happiness and the same for our much loved, much wanted children. Someone once said that there could be no peace on earth until everyone was light brown. Perhaps a century ago that seemed logical. No more. Jet travel and television ended that provincial wisdom.
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
This is a Biggie. But it’s a glorious dream. Nothing to kill or die for. What a concept. Of course nationalism and religion have always provoked wars. In fact it’s difficult to think back on any war that was not motivated by national disputes or religions or both. I can think of no war in history that was brought about by one group of people not liking, say, another group’s preferences in hat colors.
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…
John really handed us a challenge, huh? Once again, though, while the term “difficult” comes to mind rather quickly, “impossible” should not. We do ourselves an injustice if we cannot imagine ourselves getting along with each other. The burdens placed on all of us by religions, poverty, racism and territorial greed make life on earth like living in a pressure cooker. Somethin’s gotta give. And that’s the whole point. Take those horrific pressures off and see what happens. I can vaguely imagine it. Can you?
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
This is not as difficult as it is bizarre. I’d feel naked without my wristwatch. For that matter I’d feel naked without my clothes. On the other hand, if our possessions were only what we actually needed, what a strange world it would be. Most of us are used to the capitalist system so it is almost impossible to conceive of having no possessions. But imagine—there would be no TV commercials! Of course there might not be any TVs either. This is without a doubt the pristine idea behind communism and while it looks terrific on paper it is not quite so easy in real life. If Farmer John wants to spend all day drinking whisky while Farmer Juan wants to work the land all day to the best of his ability, do we still feed Farmer John? That’s where communism fails. It does not take into account that most important element needed to promote human endeavors—incentive. Possessions of some kind will probably always be necessary. Although Americans have taken that concept to preposterous heights.
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
There really is no need for greed or hunger and it is to our shame that we haven’t figured that out yet. Incentive is one thing. Corporate robbery is quite another. Again, though, if we humans were brought up with a sense of real family values you can’t help but wonder if greed or hunger would ever exist. I’m not talking about that sadistic, child-frightening, “God’ll burn you in hell forever if you don’t follow these rules!” I’m talking about genuine love, sharing and laughter. The real family values.
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world…
We already share all the world, but we’re doing a rotten job of it. The portions of it that we’re not blowing to smithereens we’re poisoning and robbing blind. But imagine diverting every single dollar, right this moment, from all military purposes, and instead devoting them to R & D for: solar, wind and geothermal power; medical research; increasing farm output safely without harming the environment; and cleaning the air and water—everywhere. The bittersweet thing about this dream is that we have had these abilities for decades. Imagine if we chose to utilize them. The mind boggles.
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
No, John Lennon was not the only one. Millions share those dreams. I have for as long as I was old enough to think about them. Countless others do as well. Our hope may lie in that single fact.
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as one
Our potential is not unlimited but it is vast. There is so much we can do, so very much, to make this world, if not perfect, at least safer, healthier, cleaner and a hell of a lot more fun. John Lennon may have been expressing a melancholy, illusory dream. But we have it in us to live that way. We do. We have as many kind thoughts as ugly ones, and the more kindness that fills the world the more lopsided that lovely ratio would become. Love begets love. Just imagine if we truly lived like that. Imagine.
June 29, 2009 at 1:32 pm
George –
That was awesome. Love the song.. and loved your thoughts and comments on it. Very cool.
~smj
June 29, 2009 at 1:56 pm
You’re making me wonder if you’re George Harrison returning from the grave to post on my blog.
Very insightful words.
June 30, 2009 at 6:31 am
theBe – hey… you’ve got a point. ??
George??!?! Is that YOU!?!?!?
June 29, 2009 at 6:59 pm |
You know, I’m not an atheist, nor do I belong to any religion….I have strong, personal spiritual beliefs that make me smile and that I do not need anyone else to validate for me and I find “Imagine” amazing!!! I LOVE that song. My son grew up listening to that song and was free to believe what he wanted. He ventured around in his heart and landed where he is comfortable. I bet those children going to atheist camp will be fine! It doesn’t sound emotionally extreme. Wow, you’re making me think here. Perhaps there ARE atheist parents who browbeat their children just as severely as the religious zealots do. Sigh. I think children are SORELY underestimated when it comes to matters of the heart and having the ability to make their own personal spiritual decisions.
June 29, 2009 at 11:34 am |
I would absolutely send my kids to Dawkins’ camp. He teaches SKEPTICISM, which is to question, not an idealogy. Science classes also teach how to question, and my English classes taught critical thinking. It wasn’t “philosophy”, it was a practical, legitimate way of looking at the world and it was fascinating and fun to experiment and to question the teachers without getting in trouble and to play and to see what happens if…
I went to a secular science camp myself, which did not preach about the evils of religion, it just taught me to look at the world around me and question it. It taught me to investigate. It also showed me that the universe is a wonderous thing. It didn’t say one thing about religion, pro or con, and it didn’t need to. There is plenty to be in awe about, plenty to inspire, plenty to teach, including the tools necessary to survive in a world that tries to take away our right to question, to investigate, and to speak out loud our opinions.
I wish Dawkins’ camp would expand to the US before the kids in my family are too old to attend.
June 29, 2009 at 11:42 am |
I see that Camp Quest is in the US, but 1) it’s not in my area and 2) I want to support Richard Dawkins in particular if I can.
When I was in elementary school, they had a special program for the children of higher intelligence. I was among them, and they took us out of regular classes one day a week and brought us all together for this program.
There, we learned much the same things that this article talks about, debunking mystical claims, critical thinking skills, etc. As a child, it was the best part of school. I had the most fun with the interactive lessons and engaging with the teachers who seemed to take me seriously when I had a question or a point to make. It was certainly more fun than sitting at a desk being lectured at.
This is not Philosophy 101 required freshman courses designed to put you to sleep. These are fun activities that engage the mind and the body that children actually enjoy doing, but these traits are often hammered out of us at an early age.
How many of us remember being, or have seen, the kid who always asks why, to which the adult answers “because I said so, that’s why!” We are punished for talking in class, for talking back, for asking questions. These are a child’s natural states of mind that we inhibit.
A camp that encourages children to behave like children sounds like a wonderful place to send them, not a torture of having “philosophy poked down their throat during summer vacations”.
Heck, where do *I* sign up?
June 29, 2009 at 12:07 pm |
I`m appalled that only the “more intelligent” pupils at your school benefitted from such methods of education Joreth. I trained as a teacher here in England in the 1960s when this sort of “progressive education” was taking over from the more traditional, authoritarian methods by which I myself had been taught, and I can recall even now the frisson of excitement which this caused. We felt that we were really part of something, and that society was going to be changed for the better. Children were being taught to question what they were told, experiment, explore, and discover the truth for themselves! (Some educators, like Piaget, Montessori and Frobel had been doing this for years, of course.) Neeedless to say, this was not popular with the right wing, and has been blamed down the years for almost every ill experienced by our society. (“It`s all the fault of trendy, liberal, left-wing teachers!”) Consequently, such methods of experiential learning are under fire here like never before. If that`s all that Camp Quest is about, then I wish it well, and one can only hope that some of the statements in the press are the result (as usual) of the hopeless bias of right-wing, reactionary editors (and owners!!). Adults are always authority figures to children, and it is so easy to unwittingly force your ideas on them, even with the best of intentions. I remain totally opposed to the brainwashing of children, even by people with whose ideas I agree 100%!!
June 29, 2009 at 5:12 pm |
Well, it shouldn’t surprise me that the people who make a living off of keeping things the same would have a problem with a generation growing up to question and figure out what the best way to go about things is.
It’s been my experience that the man who has the right questions can go farther than someone with the right answers. You don’t really hear about the physicists that were really good at using the equations they had. It’s the Newtons and the Fermis and the Einsteins who get the notoriety.
And rightly so. They’re the ones who advance society. It’s not necessarily because they were so proficient at working within the equations they were given. By all accounts, they were very astute, but they were famous for asking the right questions and following up on them. They realized the answers they had been studying were based on faulty pretenses. Their questioning led them to actually allow humanity to get a better glimpse of the world as it is, not as it had been trained to see it.
Discouraging piercing, critical questioning seems to be an exercise in species-wide suicide to me.
June 29, 2009 at 1:46 pm |
“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
This one is a bit more difficult because no one alive today has any memory of a world without borders and boundaries. Still, since this is all about imagination, try at least to imagine such a thing. The Planet Earth—all one place. The only things dividing us would be our various climates. Everything else about us would be the same—our striving for health, happiness and the same for our much loved, much wanted children.”
I’m not as sure about this one. Although I hate militant, aggressive nationalism (I am a “triple atheist”: no religion, no nationalism, and no pro sports (lol)), we shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. because I’m not sure a vast worldwide cultural sea of consumerism and bland pop culture is a great idea…which is what I see happening if all countries and cultures are homogenized.
June 29, 2009 at 2:32 pm |
“No pro sports” – very funny BrianM! I`m obviously a triple atheist too. I always thought that “sport” was for fitness and recreation, but not today. I remember, some years ago now, someone from Brazil – where football is almost a religion – saying: “What is the definition of football? 100,000 people who need exercise watching 22 people who need a rest”!!
June 29, 2009 at 2:44 pm |
I tend to agree with your other comments too. Way back in the early 1960s my friend and I sat in our English class, which was conducted by the deputy head – a wonderful teacher – and he said something that we never forgot (though he may have been quoting J. B. Priestley or some other essayist – I wonder if anyone can tell me?). My friend sadly died of leukaemia in 1997, but we often recalled the remark: “In the future it won`t matter where on earth you go, all the cities will be exactly the same.” To us as young teenagers that seemed a ludicrous statement – but just look at what is happening to the world today!
June 29, 2009 at 3:15 pm |
You might want to be aware that Dawkins took some exception to the way the camp and his involvement in it was portrayed. http://richarddawkins.net/article,4006,UPDATED-Therell-be-no-tent-for-God-at-Camp-Dawkins,Lois-Rogers—-TIMESONLINE
I have a much bigger problem with the Richard Dawkins who is portrayed in the media than the Richard Dawkins whom I found when I actually read his book. Many people I know were big admirers of his even before The God Delusion because they’d read his other books.
barriejohn –
My mother is also a teacher and she also learned what I believe you’d call progressive education techniques back in the late 50’s and early 60’s. I think what you noted as a change over time is more relevant than the difference between England and the U.S. I find that I have memories of a much more secular America than many of my younger friends and acquaintances.
Although I learned critical thinking skills in school (along with all the other students) the tendency to suddenly stop thinking critically the moment someone invoked “religion” kept me from seeing those skills applied in those areas. It would have done me a lot of good. Although I grew up without a religion, I wasted about a decade exploring other people’s religious ideas. That’s a long and convoluted story, but it may have been shorter if people were more willing to speak their minds about how silly some religious ideas are. The biggest barrier to embracing a religion was not the criticisms of non-theists, but the fact the religious people all disagree with each other.
June 29, 2009 at 7:48 pm |
My wife and I met while working on staff at a Christian camp. It was not even close to the one in the video. What you’re seeing at Jesus Camp is the product of the Charismatic or Pentecostal fringe, and even among adults in that sector of Christianity, there are some who would disagree with this type of approach. The people I know in what we call “Children’s Ministry” would follow a much more balanced path.
What I want to address however is the whole “camp” concept. Take a kid away from home, away from their computer or video games or television and put them in a residential situation for a week with strangers, add in lots of blue sky and fresh air, and frankly a kid can be very vulnerable. I’m not saying they are open to the power of suggestion, but they are willing to re-examine basic concepts and beliefs. It’s a time that calls for a very cautious, very careful strategy. It should also be noted that kids (and adults, too) who make “decisions” based on guilt, fear or because others are doing it don’t “stick” to either their beliefs or the organization
However, it’s also a time that also leaves some of the adult leaders, staff and volunteers very vulnerable; vulnerable to extremes; vulnerable to want to do “whatever it takes” to bring change into the lives of impressionable children; vulnerable to want to take those kids to making “next steps.”
So no matter what the founder’s intentions when starting a residential camp program, there’s no guarantee that the interpretation of those intentions by leaders, staff and volunteers won’t leave Camp Quest looking a lot like Jesus Camp.
Furthermore, there’s nothing wrong with teaching kids that there is an ideological battle waging, but the problem with the battle motif is that if someone “wins” it means someone else “loses.” What happens when the kids get older and find it’s actually a lot more complicated than that?
June 30, 2009 at 8:30 am |
Some excellent points here!
June 30, 2009 at 12:39 am |
As someone who grew up going to Christian Summer Camp, and, as someone who eventually became a camp counselor at said camp… no, I would not send my kid (if I had one) to Dawkins camp. I would not send them to a Christian camp either. I would choose a camp that is ‘just a camp’.
Given the nature of summer camp, and the amount of persuasion that goes on there (if it’s a ‘camp with a mission’), I’d rather not subject my kid to that. There are plenty of other ways for them to learn various philosophies/theologies. Ways that do not include an artificial high from doing something everyone else is doing… that ends in a hard crash when out of the environment.
BTW, Camp Counselors go through the same high and eventual crash. Even those who stay with the church… it is inevitable. Life is not like camp. I saw some people become full time camp staff, and they kind of stayed ‘kid like’. It was sad, actually. They don’t seem to understand why the rest of the world doesn’t think dressing up and playing games is a little odd when you’re 40.
June 30, 2009 at 8:27 am |
SPOT ON!! I may say more along these lines when I have more time, but I know JUST what you are talking about here! Those who have never been involved are living in cloud cuckoo land, I`m afraid.
June 30, 2009 at 7:53 am |
Meanwhile at a Baptist church summer camp near me:
Polar Extremes
Kids, if you’re going to either the North Pole or the South Pole, take along some good secular insulated clothing and survival gear, because prayer doesn’t work.
June 30, 2009 at 8:24 am |
This is blatantly dishonest, isn`t it? I searched the small print thoroughly, but nowhere does it say “We are going to brainwash your kids, and turn them into little Soldiers of Christ”, which is what it`s all about really!!
June 30, 2009 at 4:43 pm |
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