Each person dies for his or her own sin. A parent’s punishment for sin is not handed down to his children.
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
–Deuteronomy 24:16
Children are punished and slaughtered for the sins of their parents. The punishment is inherited and handed down to many generations of the family.
Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities.
–Isaiah 14:21
He does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.
–Exodus 34:7
No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.
–Deuteronomy 23:2
Tags: Atheist, Bible, Conflict, Conflicting, Father, Flawed, Generation, God, Inherited, Jesus, Punishment, Sin, Skeptic
July 8, 2009 at 4:58 am |
Thankfully, I haven’t heard a God-worshipper claim that someone undeserving suffers because “his ancestor was a d***”.
(Granted, they’re usually too busy painting the unfortunate guy as a sinner himself to do that, but still…)
July 8, 2009 at 9:06 am |
Particularly the top passage and the Exodus one are just so glaring. You know, in reading these conflicts, I have a difficult time understanding how I could have been so willingly, stupidly, stubbornly blind all those years.
July 8, 2009 at 9:31 am |
Seriously? The contradictions of these verses never surprises me, however the content always knocks my socks off. Look up childish, petty, mean-spirited elitist grudge-holder in the dictionary and there will be a picture of the god represented by those passages. Cowrazy.
July 8, 2009 at 11:41 am |
Another, the bible says that no punishment is eternal, yet it is defined hell is eternal suffering.
July 8, 2009 at 12:40 pm |
It seems both are true.
(1) Everyman shall be put to death for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16, Romans 6:23)
(2) Children (grand children, etc.) can “pay” for sins their fathers (and mothers) have committed (Deuteronomy 23:2, Exodus 34:7). Think of today — it’s possible for kids to “inherit” sexually transmitted diseases, have birth defects due to the parent’s actions, grow to become alcoholics/addicts, etc.
I think what makes this apparent contradiction confusing is the reference to Isaiah 14:21. This verse doesn’t seem to be talking about Israel at all. The context directly before is talking about Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12).
July 8, 2009 at 5:04 pm |
Rich,
I’ll highlight the important part for you:
(1) Everyman shall be put to death for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16, Romans 6:23)
So according to your sin = STD theory, give me one good reason why I shouldn’t be gunning down the Japs for killing our people at Pearl Harbor. Doesn’t make sense when I put it in this context does it? Wondering why? Cause its nonsense.
July 10, 2009 at 10:38 am |
How about a few?
We don’t live in the Old Testament.
We aren’t of the Nation of Israel.
It’s nonsense.
I’m not sure I see the connection between an inherited disease/ physical problem due to previous ancestor’s living and the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Maybe I’m missing something.
July 8, 2009 at 2:39 pm |
Sorry Rich, but you are incorrect. Helel ben-Shahar (of Shacar) refers to two Babylonian deities. Helel means roughly, ‘bright one’ and Shahar (Shacar) mean roughly, ‘rising dawn’ (‘morning light or star’ would work too). Basically this is a shot at the Babylonian gods, and at the Babylonian king. (Recall that the kings of Babylon were considered gods.)
The ‘Lucifer’ bit came about due to Latin and Greek translators who apparently did not know Babylonian mythology and so equated the name to Greek and Roman deities.
So the Isaiah passage is saying to the king of Babylon something like, “I’ll kill you and kill your kids.”
July 10, 2009 at 11:12 am |
I think a reference to Satan is a more accurate understanding of these verses. Take verses 12 through 14. If this were talking about a king, why would God have said “fallen from heaven” and (speaking of Lucifer’s heart) “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God” and “I will be like the most High”.
Some fallacies — if this were the King of Babylon, which “god” would the king of Babylon be speaking about? And would it really matter if the king wanted to “ascend into heaven” and “be like the most High” if kings were considered as gods? This would seem common-place.
These verses as a reference to Satan also mesh with other scriptures, such as Ezekiel 28:12-17 and Revelation 12.
I do believe Isaiah 14 is talking about Satan, but is also a proverb against the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:4).
July 12, 2009 at 2:28 pm |
What you think is of no consequence. Nor is what you’ve been taught by your church.
What is of consequence is learning enough about the ancient, Babylonian mythologies and about the divinity of the Babylonian king to enable yourself to understand what’s being talked about in the passage. That way you won’t be left with such insubstantial silliness as “I believe”, “I think” and so forth.
July 8, 2009 at 10:57 pm |
You even went the tame route on this. If you really wanted to jam a point squarely between this logical gap, you could also pose the question: “well, if we aren’t accountable for the sins of our fathers, then why are humans born sinful at all?”
Mankind fell because Adam sinned. The Bible states that we are all judged because someone did something God didn’t like. That doesn’t exactly tie in with the notion that “the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
July 8, 2009 at 11:31 pm |
Sinful babies are so cute. How dare they poop their diapers? They need to repent and beg God to forgive their uncleanliness.
July 9, 2009 at 7:27 am |
Have you ever been part of a school district where the school board tried to make the schools part of the church? That happened in Lake County Florida in the early 80′s.
Prayer in the school just opens the door to religion in schools, then the fight is over WHOSE PRAYER? When I started teaching the teacher was required to read the Bible, and lead the prayer each moring. That was 1964.
July 10, 2009 at 5:25 pm |
July 9, 2009 at 9:15 pm |
The bible, both in the Old and New Testament, is morally repugnant and should be rejected by every ethical person.
Was it God, or the devil, who said: “I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood…”
Was it God, or the devil, who said: “Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers…I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you.”
Was it God, or the devil, who said: “Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces…”
Was it God, or the devil, who said: “Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women…”
Was it God, or the devil, who said: “…I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun.”
Was it god, or the devil, who said: “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
Was it God, or the devil, who said: “Samar’ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.”
Was it God, or the devil, who killed every man, woman, child and animal on earth because he lost his temper with them? Was it God, or the devil, who killed 50,000 of his children for merely looking into the ark of the covenant? Was it God, or the devil, who killed every firstborn child in Egypt for the deed of the Pharoah?
Obviously, it is Jehovah who did all of these atrocities. But I ask you, under similar circumstances, what would the devil have done? Allow yourself to think about that. Could a devil have done worse? In fact, please find one instance in the bible of the devil actually killing someone. You will not be able to.
July 10, 2009 at 11:27 am |
“The bible, both in the Old and New Testament, is morally repugnant and should be rejected by every ethical person.”
These verses are all Old Testament (and many from prophetic books) — were there any “morally repugnant” New Testament verses to add here?
Also, did God actually do all of these things he said he would do? Did you know some prophecies are conditional (like 2 Samuel 12:11, “I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the light of this sun” followed by verse 13, “And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.”)?
“In fact, please find one instance in the bible of the devil actually killing someone. You will not be able to.”
“Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil-” — Hebrews 2:14
The devil holds the power of death. Very interesting.
July 13, 2009 at 8:38 am |
Hey Rich, he asked you to find “one instance in the bible of the devil actually killing someone.” You failed to do that. Try again or admit defeat.
Oh, wait. Christians can’t admit defeat on any point. Their overwhelming PRIDE and ARROGANCE is just too huge. After all, you’ve got the Holy Spirit, so you must be perfect and infallible.
July 13, 2009 at 8:49 am
I always find that comical. God is all-powerful, but the devil rules the world. How does that work exactly?
Being a god must be pretty nice. You get credit for all the good things and have the devil as a scapegoat.
July 13, 2009 at 12:25 pm
TB: You just came close to one of my favorite quotes from Mr. Deity. (If you haven’t seen Mr. Deity, look him up. The first season episodes are the best by far.)
Mr. Deity when queried about why he doesn’t answer prayers even though he can, said, “When people pray to me and good things happen, who gets the credit? Me. When people pray and bad things happen, who gets the blame? Not me. So it’s all good. I’m not gonna mess up a good deal by sticking my nose in where it’s not wanted.”
August 25, 2009 at 10:05 am |
There is no contradiction here.
Deut. 24:16 is speaking of spiritual death: damnation. No one goes to hell for the sins of their fathers, but for their own sins. It is true that sin entered mankind through Adam, but only insomuch as we have sinned. If Adam and Eve had not taken the forbidden tree and obtained the knowledge of good and evil, no one would be capable of sin, but we still choose to sin.
While the distinction between physical and spiritual death makes refuting your other passages unnecessary, since God will punish future generations for the sins of their fathers in a temporal way, your use of Deut. 23:2 is worthy of note. This is from the old testament and an illegitimate child wouldn’t be a Jew. This isn’t to say that Gentiles couldn’t be saved, but that they weren’t a part of God’s chosen people by birth – see Exodus 12:48-49.
August 25, 2009 at 11:22 am |
You are admitting that your god will punish people for something one of their relatives did 10 generations ago. Right? How does that equate to a just god?
You can attempt to make a distinction between physical and spiritual death if that helps you justify the absurdities of the Bible. But you can’t make these statements and continue to claim the same god is a loving and just. Either this god is just and forgiving, or he isn’t. And he is either real, or he is a man-made figment of your imagination.
August 25, 2009 at 10:01 pm |
“You are admitting that your god will punish people for something one of their relatives did 10 generations ago. Right? How does that equate to a just god?”
That is not the case at all. As I said, those people simply wouldn’t be Jews, so they wouldn’t be one of God’s people without converting to the Jewish faith – even ten generations down the line, they are not Jews.
“You can attempt to make a distinction between physical and spiritual death if that helps you justify the absurdities of the Bible.”
The Bible makes a very clear distinction between physical and spiritual death. You can’t analyze the Bible without context. What is absurd is the notion that the Bible authors didn’t intend for there to be a distinction. Clearly they did.
“But you can’t make these statements and continue to claim the same god is a loving and just. Either this god is just and forgiving, or he isn’t. And he is either real, or he is a man-made figment of your imagination.”
Do parents love the children they punish? Of course. Does the very act of punishing mean that they are unfair? While the reprimanded child might think so, this is not the case. You take the position of the teenager who thinks ever rule their parents set is a personal assault on the freedoms they feel entitled to. If you ask for forgiveness of your sins, they will be pardoned you and God will “remember them no more.” (Exodus 34:6 happens to refer to forgiveness, a single verse before your quote.) If you do not, you will be punished for them. That sounds perfectly fair to me.
While I assume your main point is that punishing children for the sins of their fathers isn’t fair, let’s ignore God for a moment and pretend we live in a fairy tale world where matter and energy created themselves with no supernatural help, where the Bible didn’t explain scientific phenomena long before scientists ever conceived of it and where the Jews experienced the elimination any other people would have under the intense persecution they faced.
In this magical world, Joe is a drug addict. The drugs kill him. Joe’s children suffer because of his sins, do they not? While it doesn’t fit into our understanding of fairness, an objective analysis shows that in certain circumstances we accept it as perfectly natural that others have to suffer for what you do. God uses it as a deterrent, because people often care more about their children being punished than themselves. If the children serve the Lord, his loving kindness will protect them from the punishments earned by their fathers. If they don’t serve the Lord, they will not die a spiritual death in Hell for their father’s sins, but for their own.
August 25, 2009 at 10:46 pm |
Here is a small sampling or your beloved God’s fatherly method of punishment. What a great Dad you worship:
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/03/09/if-genocide-is-evil-how-is-god-any-different-than-adolf-hitler/
Seriously? Scientific phenomena like the sun standing still, talking snakes, demons that cause epilepsy, a flat earth, stars that will one day “fall from the sky”, an impossible flood that covered the highest mountain top, etc.
Genesis is a book of primitive fables, not science.
You will go to heaven because you believe a Jewish guy was God’s son based on a flawed book. You can kill, lie, steal, cheat, and abuse everyone and everything as long as you say you’re sorry and believe in Jesus before you die. Not exactly the kind of person I would want to spend eternity with.
If God is real, why would he give us brains that he doesn’t want us to use?
August 25, 2009 at 10:52 pm |
I would like anyone reading this article to note that the author has now stopped defending the original points entirely and moved on to what must appear to be greener pastures.
August 26, 2009 at 8:10 am |
???
Deuteronomy 24:16 says a child should not be put to death for his father’s sin.
Isaiah 14:21 explains how sons will be slaughtered for the sins of their forefathers.
Not to mention the thousands of babies and children that were slaughtered in mass genocide in the Old Testament due to their parent’s sins.
Justin, you can try to justify flawed texts and theology if it helps you believe. I wasted 33 years doing the same thing. I’ll return to my greener pasture now.