This cartoon reminded me of a song I used to sing so joyfully as a child. It’s true because it says its true. Who could question that?
Jesus loves me! This I know, For the Bible tells me so; Little ones to Him belong, They are weak but He is strong.
Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! The Bible tells me so.
Jesus loves me! He who died, Heaven’s gate to open wide; He will wash away my sin, Let His little child come in.
Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! The Bible tells me so.
Jesus loves me! loves me still, When I’m very weak and ill; From His shining throne on high, Comes to watch me where I lie.
Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! The Bible tells me so.
Jesus loves me! He will stay, Close beside me all the way; He’s prepared a home for me, And some day His face I’ll see.
Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! The Bible tells me so.
Tags: Christianity, God, Bible, Jesus, Cartoon, Valid, Truth, Evidence, Logic, Rationalization
August 2, 2009 at 10:52 pm |
Heh, how true. There are already 2 repliers on this blog who have demonstrated this behavior. Everything is true because the book sez so. That way, the only thing they have to do is pick and choose the most appropriate verse from the bible. And let God do the clarification for them. <__>
August 2, 2009 at 10:54 pm |
This got mysteriously cut off earlier. Doh! Too bad we can’t edit posts.
“Honestly, God’s servants aren’t the only ones who use this tactic. Ever read an EULA? Any EULA for a piece of software or technology? Most of it goes “Because I say so” or “Because section x of the law says so”. None of them actually tell you why – you’re pointed to an authority and you’re expected to obey without question. >_>”
August 3, 2009 at 1:43 am |
The “relationship with god” is a kind of EULA:
In the case of software, however, the creator actually gives something in exchange for your money and your agreement to the EULA and does not destroy you if you decide not to buy the product.
If an EULA actually explained the reasons for every provision, it would be very long indeed and you would have to read through all those explanations in every EULA even though the reasons are the same for all of them and even though you would understand and remember the reasons after you had read the first EULA.
August 3, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Landover Baptists offer a money-back guarantee evidently! See http://www.landoverbaptist.org/ They’re the ones for me!!
August 3, 2009 at 12:14 am |
Chicken,
how right you are. They will pull a quote out of the bible to back up just about freaking anything, but when one of us non believers does it we are “taking it out of context” or “are not trained to properly read the ancient texts” or “don’t know how to read into the real meaning of the statement” or or or or. So many different reasons they can come up with. But they can cherry pick and use the most stupid quotes from that stupid book to back up their stupid beliefs.
August 3, 2009 at 2:17 am |
Have a look at this: http://www.gqkidz.org/Bible-true.html
“Why would so many people die defending the Bible, if it weren’t true?”
Why indeed?
August 3, 2009 at 2:34 am |
LOL great link. Had a good laugh. Would love to see their references for the statement that “other historical evidence agrees with the Bible”, what a total crock of crap. Historical evidence has debunked it time and time again.
August 3, 2009 at 3:10 am |
It’s ridiculous, isn’t it Shawn? In my view, indoctrinating children with nonsense like that is a form of child abuse. As I’ve said many times before, I was brought up to believe all that crap, swallowing it hook, line and sinker, and it completely ruined my life!
August 3, 2009 at 4:54 pm
I agree completely, I hate seeing children who have never been allowed an original thought of their own.
August 3, 2009 at 7:28 am |
This was a big teaching of the pastor at my church. And I bought it hook, line and sinker.
The simple answer: Religion brainwashes people and makes them do crazy shit.
August 3, 2009 at 10:54 am |
Yep, all those tasks imply that they die for their respective incarnations of God – in the hopes that their sacrifice will prompt God to not only glorify them, but to send their enemies straight to hell.
Religion can’t be blamed for wars… but it sure as hell seems to have a lot of influence on the spread of terrorism. >_>
August 3, 2009 at 3:15 am |
The cartoon’s great, BEattitude! I wonder whether all readers have seen these, especially the first one! http://proudatheists.wordpress.com/2009/06/27/anti-religious-cartoons/
There is a link there to a site I have never heard of before that is very thought-provoking: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/ It sounds like a joke, but it isn’t!!
August 3, 2009 at 3:29 am |
why would so many people die defending the bible?
but wait, people blame christianity for war, its not the beliefs that start the war…there are always other causes and people just blame christianity. and so on and so on…
so you fight for something else entirely, but you die defending the bible…
August 3, 2009 at 4:38 am |
I’ve always found it very interesting that christians are usually quick to recognize this logical fallacy in everything other than their religion.
If you accept the premise of the book, The Bible is really an autobiography. Yet, it would be difficult to find a christian who thinks that all self-written works are, by definition, completely true.
Don’t know which is worse: the christians who think the book is true because it says it’s true (translation: I’ve been told anything behind this book cover is right, no matter how many edits occur), or the christians who think it’s a set of impossible coincidences all influenced by their god (translation: My god is all powerful…except when it comes to any direct display of power).
August 3, 2009 at 5:32 am |
I’ve now come across this load of drivel: http://www.wholesomewords.org/children/stories/jesuslove.html
It’s Children’s Stories all right! I think the reason that fundamentalists are so fond of preaching to children isn’t because of the love they have for their souls, but the fact that they are such an uncritical audience!! What adults, except the mentally deficient, would swallow any of this?
August 3, 2009 at 5:56 am |
I think that they do this type of teaching because the child’s mind is so easily influenced and shaped. If you can teach them to believe this stuff at a young age you are less likely to lose them to reasoning later in life. There is also the trust factor, chilren will give their trust to an adult way faster then a teen or an adult will.
August 3, 2009 at 6:11 am |
Everything you say is true, Baconsbud – “Give me a child to the age of seven and I’ll give you the man”, and so on – but I used to be an evangelical, and I can tell you from experience that it is much more rewarding leading a hundred enthusiastic children in chorus-singing , quizzes and other activities, than preaching the Gospel of a Sunday night to a handful of glum pensioners who are struggling to stay awake!
August 3, 2009 at 6:13 am
PS Drawing conclusions about my preaching ability from the above statement is strictly forbidden!!
August 3, 2009 at 1:13 pm |
Hey barriejohn and Baconsbud,
Sorry for butting in here but this is just for the benefit of all those lurkers out there.
I’m not entirely sure if this is a tried-and-true theory or just another HYPOTHESIS(Yes, my dear creation/ID friends, I’ve just introduced to you a new word: hypothesis. It is similar to your favorite word, “theory”, but not as established.”)
Thinking in evolutionary terms, children who trust the words and advice of their elders would be more likely to be able to live than those who do not. Since I absolutely suck at explaining scientific hypothesis, I’ll leave it to Dawkins:
“More than any other
species, we survive by the accumulated experience of previous
generations, and that experience needs to be passed on to children for their protection and well-being. Theoretically, children might learn from personal experience not to go too near a cliff edge, not to eat untried red berries, not to swim in crocodile-infested waters. But, to say the least, there will be a selective advantage to child brains that possess the rule of thumb: believe, without question, whatever your grown-ups tell you. Obey your parents; obey the tribal elders, especially when they adopt a solemn, minatory tone. Trust your elders without question.”
And those pastors preach 24/7 that evolution is the work of the devil. Ungrateful pricks.
August 3, 2009 at 4:41 pm
You’re not “butting in” Butterfly – no need for apologies! Unfortunately though, you don’t appear to have access to a copy of the “New Fundamentalist Dictionary”. If you did, you would realize that, as with theory, the word hypothesis just means a load of unproven, unsubstantiated, unverifiable, and mostly untrue speculation, with not a scrap of evidence to back it up. I just thought I’d point that out to you!!
August 3, 2009 at 7:18 am |
Little ones to Him belong, They are weak but He is strong.
Disturbing lyrics when you think about them. I wonder if they sang this hymn in Tony Alamo’s church?
August 3, 2009 at 10:34 am |
I’ve been trying to post a reply to your comment without success, Reginald, so I’ll have another go! Followers of this blog will be well aware that Jesus likes nothing better than to get “real close” to the kids, helping them to hone their sporting skills: http://www.catholicshopper/products/inspirational_sport_statues.html
August 3, 2009 at 1:17 pm |
I’ve got a better one:
August 3, 2009 at 1:48 pm
That’s not the real Jesus – everyone knows that he had fair hair!!!
August 3, 2009 at 12:16 pm |
Tony Alamo’s pamphlet distribution wing is still going strong here in NYC. Those things are everywhere. On you car, at your front door, in the gutter…Isn’t he Texas based?
August 3, 2009 at 12:20 pm |
If you believe that the Bible contains the revealed word of God, then there is no logical contradiction. If you doubt that the Bible contains the word of God, then there is nothing rationally intrinsic to it that will make you believe.
The Gospel stands outside the rational system as revealed truth. To believe this takes faith. We come to God through faith, not facts.
August 3, 2009 at 12:32 pm |
The majority of people do not come to believe in God through faith. Most are indoctrinated and brainwashed into believing it as a child. Then they spend the rest of their life being afraid to question due to fear of punishment after death.
Why do you believe the Bible is the “word of God”? Because it says it is, or because other people told you it is? It takes much more than faith to believe an omnipotent, all-powerful creator couldn’t inspire a better book.
August 3, 2009 at 1:35 pm |
“The majority of people do not come to believe in God through faith. ”
A fine assertion. Do you have proof?
“Most are indoctrinated and brainwashed into believing it as a child.”
The same could be said for rationalism as the only path to truth.
“Why do you believe the Bible is the “word of God”? Because it says it is, or because other people told you it is?”
Both. Are there any additional ways?
“It takes much more than faith to believe an omnipotent, all-powerful creator couldn’t inspire a better book.”
I honestly think the Bible contains exactly what God wants to say to us. The inconsistancies, errors, etc are just part of the wrapper, not the message. People instinctively want to believe, so God asks us to come to him by faith.
Rational understanding is a fine thing, but you will reach far more people through faith.
August 3, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Yes, America is full the proof. Over 75% of children in America are indoctrinated into Christianity. Don’t you find it odd than virtually every child born in the Middle East becomes a Muslim? Why don’t they discover God through faith? Because children believe whatever religion their parents teach them.
I thought maybe Jesus told you in a vision.
People only instinctively believe because they hope there is more to life than our time here on earth. So they turn to religion because it gives them hope of some sort of afterlife. People like faith because it pacifies their fears of the unknown.
August 3, 2009 at 3:15 pm
theBEattitude wrote: Why do you believe the Bible is the “word of God”? Because it says it is, or because other people told you it is?
Paul M responded: Both. Are there any additional ways?
Perhaps you should ponder upon the fact that you can’t think of what would be the most obvious and compelling one–measurable, repeatable evidence.
August 3, 2009 at 3:53 pm
@theBEattitude
“Why don’t they discover God through faith?”
You could make the case that they have. There is no rational proof for Muslim set of beliefs, but both are founded on the God of Abraham.
What they do not believe is that Jesus is the Son of God.
August 3, 2009 at 1:19 pm |
When you say that faith is the only way to god, do you mean that those people that deny medical care to their kids are in the right? They say their faith was placed in god and that the kid died because it was god’s will. Faith is one of the worst reasons for believing anything. Now if you had some real evidence and faith, I could see believing in god. You only believe because you were raised that way more then likely.
August 3, 2009 at 1:41 pm |
Those who withold medical care on the basis of faith are wrong. We are called to do everything possible to care for those in our family.
People want to believe – it is instinctive. Where would sports be without faithful fans, to take a trivial example. People will commit to what they believe in.
If rationalism is so great, why does half the world go to bed hungry? Why are 40 million people in the US without medical insurance? Why are their wars?
Because of Christian faith? Or is it the failure of rationalism to produce a just outcome?
August 3, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I can’t believe what I am reading here! Most of the world’s political leaders are religiots – just look at Bush and Blair!!
August 3, 2009 at 3:17 pm
So, there’s a limit to when people should stop trusting God and start trusting science?
Well, now, who are you to determine where that line should be drawn? Doesn’t the Bible say that nothing is impossible to those who have faith and believe? In fact, there are repeated mentions of the ability to heal the sick being a direct result of belief and faith.
You wouldn’t be saying that those are outright fabrications, would you?
August 3, 2009 at 3:47 pm
@Janus Greyden
You remember the old joke about the guy trapped on his rooftop in a flood. Boat goes by, offers to take him but he refuses because “God will provide”. Helicopter comes along, offers to rescue him but the guy refuses because “God will provide”. Finally the guy drowns and confronts God – “I thought you were going to provide!”
And God replies: “I sent a boat and a helicopter. Why didn’t you take one of them off the roof already?”
Refusing medical care is not a measure of faith. It is just foolish.
August 3, 2009 at 4:32 pm
But how isn’t that a matter of faith?
You take it as fact that heaven and hell exist and that when you die, there is literally an afterlife. It says so in the Bible.
The Bible also says, repeatedly, that if you’re a disciple and you have faith, you will be able to heal people. It also mentions poison not hurting you and the ability to cast out demons. Why isn’t that literal? It has the same backing as your belief in eternal punishment or reward; the same backing as your notion of an afterlife at all, for that matter. There is nothing that says it isn’t literal. The language is very precise, following an “if-then” pattern.
But you know what? I’m granting an enormous concession. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the Bible is being mysteriously figurative here, without explaining that it is. Let’s take it as a given that the Bible is being deceptively vague here and that it is up to the discernment of the reader to ascertain the true meaning.
All of that given, then here’s the situation. These people have so much faith and trust in their God that they take these words to be literal because there’s nothing that says they can’t. They have so much faith that it overrides their common sense that these diseases will kill their children if they don’t get medical attention. And we both know why this is the case: they have more faith than you, markedly so. Their faith is so strong that it even breaches their natural inclination to get their children the help they need. This is the same kind of faith that is considered one of the ultimate acts of Abraham’s devotion to God. How are these people any different in that they are trusting the life of their child to the mercy of God?
Since they believe so much and have such great faith, God punishes them for not showing more discernment? Even though the Bible puts so much stress on having faith and trusting all things in God and that God cares more about the hairs on your head than you can comprehend, He will let your children die because you trust Him too much?
Either that is the case, or there’s the simpler reason why. Nature is running its course and trusting in anything other than the aggregate knowledge of humanity’s knowledge of medicine is folly because the God they believe would save their child doesn’t exist.
Well, that, or the maltheists have the right idea, but that doesn’t strike me as your bag.
August 3, 2009 at 5:00 pm
“In fact, there are repeated mentions of the ability to heal the sick being a direct result of belief and faith.”
But we have medical science for that now. It is wrong for a Christian not to take advantage of what rationalism can provide. We do not test God by asking him to provide everything.
Are you saying that Christians should allow their children to die because we should not use medicines not available in the 1st century?
When Abraham was told by God to kill Issac, Abraham prepared to do so based on his faith in God. But God ultimately did not require the sacrifice and that is a lesson that is valid today.
The last sacrifice was that made by Jesus and no more are required.
August 3, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Looks like we’re on the same page here. Modern advancements in science make faith in old superstitions obsolete.
It’s good to see eye to eye.
August 4, 2009 at 5:00 am
“If rationalism is so great, why does half the world go to bed hungry? Why are 40 million people in the US without medical insurance? Why are their wars?”
Are you freaking kidding me? You think you can blame wars and hunger on rationalism? Most wars throughout the history of man have been based on a religious issue. The church throughout history has done everything it could to keep the people poor and stupid so they could be controlled, and it is no different now in Islam.
Due to religious belief many new medical procedures and medical advances and medication are blocked or not allowed, particularly if they deal with birth control, which is something we need. We must limit the number of people, we have too many people and not enough resources. Rationalism and logic tells us this, yet your stupid Bible tells us to go forth and multiply, a very dangerous thing indeed!!!
And the health care system? It is messed up because of the corruption of the FDA the government and insurance companies, not due to rationalism. The FDA charges way to much to get a product on the market, the Insurance companies rip everyone off as much as they can because there is no oversight and the idiots all over the country sue for malpractice for every little minor thing which drives up the Doctors insurance costs and thus what they charge their patients (not to mention many doctors greed).
And as for the hungry? Well if the US would butt the hell out of the rest of the worlds business, quit sending our spare food to feed people in Africa, fighting unjust wars and propping up friendly dictators then we would have more for our own people. But of course this would never happen because the right wing, bible bashing Republicans don’t give a rats ass about the average American. They care more about shoving their beliefs down our throats, no birth control, no sex education, no abortion, no gay’s, “christian values” and so on, while so many of them ARE CHEATING ON THEIR SPOUSES!!!
Get real and think before you talk. Blaming war, famine and the medical situation on Rationalism is just about the stupidest thing imaginable. If you took away religion all together most of that stuff would go away in a generation or two if not much sooner.
August 4, 2009 at 5:10 am
@shawn, you give too much credit to the human race. Without God, they’ll simply manufacture one, and then we’ll have the same crap all over again. =.=
August 4, 2009 at 6:51 am
Shawn very good points. Of course the religious will try to claim anything is at fault other then their own beliefs. You can see it in how they always deny that going to war in Iraq was about weapons not that the President was told by god to attack. They seem to forget that he made that statement several times.
A chicken you are right that some would turn right back around and try and invent a new religion. I think when religion finally takes the role it should have, education will prevent it from being harmful anymore.
August 4, 2009 at 7:07 am
You’re very optimistic there Baconsbud! It’s not just religion that’s the problem, it’s IDEOLOGY. As soon as people commit to a set of beliefs you can be sure there’s going to be trouble!!
August 3, 2009 at 1:22 pm |
If you believe that there is a pink invisible unicorn in the sky, then there is no logical contradiction. If you doubt that a unicorn could be pink and invisible at the same time, then there is nothing rationally intrinsic to it that will make you believe.
The Unicorn stands outside the rational electromagnetic spectrum as revealed light. To believe this takes faith. We come to the Unicorn through faith, not facts.
August 3, 2009 at 1:43 pm |
You are correct. But there is no 2000 year-old church of the unicorn.
Why is that?
August 3, 2009 at 2:00 pm
There are a whole host of other ancient religions, though, all based on so-called “revelations” from God! If you’d been born elsewhere you’d be following one of those instead of Christianity, and don’t try to deny it!!
August 3, 2009 at 2:16 pm
You’re witnessing the church’s birth.
In 2,000 years, their will be plenty of doctrine, witnesses and texts to back up Butterfly’s claims. Christianity could be in trouble. Pink unicorns are much easier to love than a mysterious bearded Jewish guy.
August 3, 2009 at 3:20 pm
People have been murdering each other for even longer than that, does that make it a valid practice?
August 4, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Yes, but Paul there are religions (like Hindu and Shinto) that are hundreds and hundreds of years older than Christianity. Why are you skeptical of their claims and not of your own religious claims?
August 3, 2009 at 3:44 pm |
Question for you:
Why would the disciples of Jesus undergo extreme torture and other forms of persecution if they knew that he did not, in fact, rise from the dead? If, on the other hand, they saw Him after his death, this would drive them to tell everyone they knew what had happened, write down their account, and suffer all manner of pain and injustice.
Now you might argue that perhaps someone took His body. However, how does this negate the fact that more than 500 people saw Him after his death? (real people, mind you, who lived in a particular place at a particular time and wrote down what they saw).
We believe the Bible not because it says we should believe it, but because it contains eye-witness accounts of the most important event in history–the death and resurrection of Christ. When we compare our current version of the Bible to copies that were buried for almost two thousand years, they line up amazingly well.
So, perhaps 500 people agreed to make up a story about what they saw. I just can’t believe, though, that all 500 would refuse to admit to their “lie” when tortured beyond human endurance. It makes more sense that they were, in fact, telling the truth of what they actually experienced.
August 3, 2009 at 4:08 pm |
But none of these events actually took place, tom! These stories were written years after all this supposedly happened, possibly embellishments of the life-story of an actual madman called Jesus, who had little resemblance to the Jesus of the Bible, and who perished, along with his little band of followers, when he foolishly decided to take on the Roman army!!
August 3, 2009 at 4:29 pm |
and your source of such information is…?
August 3, 2009 at 4:36 pm
You’re the one claiming this stuff happened.
Otherwise I would be able to say that there was a person named Hercules who lived back in the day and he held up the heavens so it wouldn’t fall onto the earth.
There’s a book that says this happened. Disprove it using any means you like, but keep in mind that if you use scientific methods that could also be used to disprove events in the Bible, then you’re putting your position in serious jeopardy.
August 4, 2009 at 9:59 pm |
Eye witness testimony is notoriously flawed. Add to this that there are no Roman records of this occurrence (nor of many of the other claims in the NT such as a census that required people to travel to their home villages) and you’ve got a pretty shaky story.
Why would people die for their beliefs? I dunno. Why don’t you ask the suicide bombers about it.
August 6, 2009 at 2:27 pm |
Why would the disciples of Jesus undergo extreme torture and other forms of persecution if they knew that he did not, in fact, rise from the dead?
Maybe for the same reason Muslims fly into buildings, Buddhists go quietly to their deaths, etc. They believe. Whether it is true or not is not related. They simply believe it is and that’s all they need.
more than 500 people saw Him after his death? …… it contains eye-witness accounts of the most important event in history
According to one and only one text. The very text we happen to be questioning. Do you know what it meant by the term ‘circular reasoning’? If not, please see the cartoon at the top of this page.
perhaps 500 people agreed to make up a story about what they saw
How about this: Just a few people made up a story and claimed 500 people saw it. Nah! Nobody’s ever done anything like thaaaaaaat.
I just can’t believe, though, that all 500 would refuse to admit to their “lie” when tortured beyond human endurance.
Where the hell did you get any info that they were all tortured?????????????
August 6, 2009 at 2:43 pm |
I figure he got his info the same place he got his beliefs. He was told this is what the true is and to question it is to condemn yourself to hell. What he has said is just another example of how christians create their own version of history to fit their beliefs.
Tom if you go by your standards then you should be a follower of all religions in existence today. There are thousands of believers of different religions that use your type of logic but you deny it. Why?
August 3, 2009 at 4:28 pm |
Think of what you guys are saying… it is true that the Bible claims to be the truth (The entirety -or the sum- of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever Psalms 119:160)… however, the final conflict is not wether the Bible is the truth or not, but whether there is an absolute truth at all.
If you claim that there is not such a thing, you are becoming the absolute truth that you argue that is inexistent… and you are found guilty of the same circular reasoning that you point that Christianity has developed. Sort of the same logical error found in the old school of Pure Skeptics. Should you say that there is an absolute truth, how do you expect it to have a outer source to validate it as such?… that external source would then become the absolute truth by any authority means…
The truth of the matter is faith, not reasoning… or reasonable faith if you will.
August 3, 2009 at 4:38 pm |
Nobody here has said that there’s no absolute proof, for starters.
Secondly, even if people were, you can’t disprove a negative. If you claim that there is an absolute truth, then you have to prove it. You’re the one who has to put your claim to rigor and study.
Otherwise, I would kindly ask you to disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Russel’s Teapot, and Invisible Pink Unicorns.
August 3, 2009 at 5:25 pm |
barriejohn says, “none of these events actually took place”
I would encourage anyone who claims that the events surrounding Jesus’s crucifiction and death did not happen to read the writings of a historian named Josephus. He was a contemporary of Jesus and the disciples (though not one of them). Then, come back and give an educated response. Scholars don’t reject the events leading up to and including Jesus’ crucifiction and death, just the resurrection. My previous comment addresses this crucial tenant of Christianity.
Janus Grayden, introduce me to someone (or verifiable historical documentation from that person) that spent time with the pink unicorn, witnessed and recorded what it did, and then submitted to torture and death all the while claiming that what he/she said happened actually happened and I’ll consider believing in the pink unicorn.
barriejohn, do you know when the earliest book of the New Testament was written? If not, how can you claim that “These stories were written years after all this supposedly happened.” Also, according to your line of reasoning, we can’t believe any account of the Revolutionary War that was written within the last 200 years. All history, then, is suspect…
August 3, 2009 at 6:10 pm |
Josephus’ work was altered after the fact. There are two instances in which Jesus is mentioned and both of them are suspect.
In one instance, Josephus says that Jesus was the Christ. This is an obvious and accepted forgery, as it is well known that Josephus was not only Jewish his whole life, he was also under the employ of the Romans before and after the work was written.
Had he actually have written that, it is illogical that he would remain Jewish, despite believing that this man was the Messiah. Further, he would have been executed, or at least dismissed from his duties, by the Romans. His other works are incredibly derisive of the mystery cults of the time (Christianity was one of the many). This is because they had to be, regardless of Josephus’ actual beliefs, although there’s no record to show that he didn’t share these beliefs. These mystery cults were a nuisance for the Romans and anyone caught involved were punished severely (Christians weren’t subject to any special persecution, they were treated just like the rest).
Since the 18th century, it’s been unanimous that this passage has been altered, at minimum. Most people even claim the reference to Jesus in this passage was falsified, as well.
The other instance mentions a Jesus as a brother of someone named James, but later in the passage, refers to Jesus as the son of a man named Damneus. While there is less of a dispute about this passage, most say that it is oddly worded and, again, mentions the word “Christ” in relation to Jesus. While in this passage, it merely says that Jesus was called Christ, it seems strange that a Jewish historian under Roman employ would even grant him the title, even by proxy.
Not only such, but it is already readily accepted that part of the work was forged already, calling the entirety of it into question. So, even if the work actually even did mention Jesus, the entire work is suspect. By no means would such a piece of evidence even be admissible in court, due to the obvious tampering. And yet people are arguing the existence of a human being who supposedly flew in front of 500 people based on nothing more than a brief mention in a work that is known to have been tampered with.
There are thousands of people who lived around that time that we can verify because there are numerous accounts of their lives and actions that are corroborated by other sources. Josephus, for instance, is referenced in other authors’ works. We know about his faith, who he worked for, what he wrote about, and places he had gone because he wrote about it himself, and other people wrote similar things that verify his story.
August 4, 2009 at 7:03 am |
Good answer, JG. You put it better than I could have! I actually feel sorry for tom, because, like him, I used to believe all this crap. Fancy putting forward Josephus as a reliable reference for the crucifixion of Jesus the Nazarene/Nazirite or whatever!! They cling to it because it’s all they’ve got.
August 3, 2009 at 6:45 pm |
What is your reference regarding evidence for tampering of Josephus’ work? Your comment sounds like conjecture.
Also, how do you explain the deaths of those who did actually see Christ after the resurrection? Are you arguing these people didn’t exist? If so, on what grounds do you make this claim?
The Bible is a collection of books, as you know, including letters. These letters were written by people referenced in other historical documents. Some of these writers were killed for their belief in the events they witnessed. Why would they die for a lie they KNEW was a lie?
August 3, 2009 at 7:43 pm |
You’re basing your faith on the fact that some nutty people martyred themselves. Thousands of people have martyred themselves throughout history. Brainwashed people do crazy shit.
August 4, 2009 at 10:15 am |
Or you could take a quick look at the Wikipedia page instead of immediately saying I made it up. That would certainly be the intellectually honest thing to do.
Oh, and before you decry Wikipedia, I would highly suggest that you use the references listed on the bottom of the page. I’m not very trusting of Wikipedia, either, but it is an incredible way to find sources that are much more reputable.
Also, just because the authors of the Bible were real doesn’t mean that Jesus was. You believe that Homer was a real person, but don’t believe in the existence of invincible super-warriors and the Greek pantheon, do you?
August 4, 2009 at 11:59 am |
I appreciate the post of the Wikipedia page. You’ve lent support to my position instead of undermining it. I never claimed that Josephus was the only historical evidence that Jesus existed. I used it to show that he is mentioned in historical documents. Whether the one disputed passage was altered or not does not negate the non-disputed passage.
The Wikipedia page on Josephus mentions quite a few more historical documents that discuss Jesus. You’d have a harder time denying the existence of Jesus and His impact on history than you would Homer (who seems to be a favorite here)
Regarding the “invincible super warriors,” I restate my previous position: If one of them claimed that he would rise from the dead and then actually did rise from the dead and appear to witnesses who were willing to be burned to death unless they recanted their testimony, then I would believe in them too.
Instead of just relying on external manuscripts, I place a lot of trust in the New Testament itself. There are nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, some of which have been dated to within 40 years of the original authors. Homer’s Iliad, the second best-preserved ancient manuscript has only 643 copies discovered to date.
You probably know this information. Certainly, you’ve set your mind on your position, and I on mine.
August 4, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Both references to Jesus in Josephus are very dodgy, tom!
August 3, 2009 at 8:18 pm |
First, my faith is based on much more than this one issue. Let’s not oversimplify things.
Second, I’m talking about people who had first-hand experience, not those who were told what happened after the fact. I don’t see how brainwashing applies in first-hand experiences. It is certainly true that brainwashed people do all manner of messed up things. You’ll have to convince me that these people that saw these events were all somehow brainwashed simultaneously or they had some sort of “group hallucination.” That’s absurdly far-fetched.
Even if they were brainwashed, there’s always someone who “wakes up” and is able to point out the error in what has been taught. The cult then collapses under the weight of falsehood. Why is Christianity still around? Why weren’t the Romans…the most powerful nation on earth…able to silence this so called “cult” by showing people what really happened?
August 3, 2009 at 9:09 pm |
Charles Manson convinced a group of people that he was the second coming of Jesus incarnate. This large group of people not only killed innocent victims on his command, they openly said they would gladly give their life for him.
As I said, brainwashed people do crazy shit. As the wise George Costanza once said, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”
August 3, 2009 at 9:18 pm |
I wonder why the Church of Scientology is still around, after people have “woken up” from that pretty obvious drivel, and after being outlawed in countries, and after being persecuted by other religions as well, including God’s very own servants.
A cult turns into a religion when it has INFLUENCE. That’s pretty much the only thing that differentiates a cult from a religion. Influence IS the lifeline of any given con; it prevents the people that challenge the religion from hurting it out of respect. It prevents the law from taking action, once again out of respect. It obscures the truth, and lets the religion write its own.
August 3, 2009 at 9:44 pm |
Again, you misunderstand. My point is that there were people (doctors, teachers, centurions, etc…not just superstitious peasants) who saw Christ and then held to their account of what they saw even when submitted to extreme pain. When told to recant their testimony of what they actually SAW (not heard as in the case of the Manson followers), they refused because they knew the truth.
The key question in my mind though, is “What if you’re wrong?”
August 3, 2009 at 10:45 pm |
Ahhh … the “what if I’m wrong response”. I should have known that was coming.
I guess if I’m wrong, your “loving” god will throw me into a lake of fire for eternal punishment for not believing ridiculous stories from 2,000 years ago. It makes no difference if I am a moral person, only if I believe a Jewish guy was God’s son. I am completely convinced for numerous reasons that Christianity is bunk. I can’t pretend to believe it. I just don’t anymore.
This was God’s big idea:
Make an immeasurable universe full of hundreds of billions of galaxies. Then place a bunch of plants and animals including one special species of mammal on one tiny planet in one solar system. Then instruct this mammal to believe in him, honor his name, obey him and follow a bunch of other barbaric laws. He then picked a select “chosen people” who he required to perform animal sacrifices to keep him happy. They couldn’t follow his rules, so he wiped the earth out with a flood. Then he tried again and they still couldn’t follow his goofy laws. So in a last ditch effort, he decided to impregnate a woman with himself so he could be butchered as a human sacrifice to himself. And that would solve everything.
A brilliant plan if I do say so myself.
So my question to you is “what if you’re wrong?” You will spend every day of your life worshipping and trying to live up to the standards of an imaginary man. Always giving a man-made god credit for everything you do and feeling unworthy every time you make a mistake.
When I walked away from my faith less than a year ago I thought it would send me into a depression. Surprisingly the opposite happened. I appreciate every moment I have to love my family and help those in need around me. Much more than I ever used to. When you’re not living in hope of an afterlife, it allows you to better focus on the one your living now. I just believe in one less god than I used to.
August 4, 2009 at 10:02 pm |
Pascal’s wager fail…
August 3, 2009 at 10:54 pm |
Best of luck to you. It sounds like I started from the opposite direction–a committed skeptic who researched the evidence for a Creator and found a God who is so far above our descriptions that even His revealed Word is but a faint whisper. He brings fullness of life, not a burden.
You’ve chosen your path; I mine. Fare thee well.
August 3, 2009 at 11:08 pm |
I’ve enjoyed the discussion. – Peace.
August 4, 2009 at 10:03 pm |
You found a path, not the path. Have you really researched every religion on this planet and found yours to be the One True Religion (TM)?
August 5, 2009 at 3:16 am |
[...] The circular logic of Christianity. « the BEattitude [...]
August 9, 2009 at 5:22 am |
[...] the Beattitude) August 9th, 2009 in Humor | tags: bible, blind faith, sunday [...]