Several Christians have asked me this question since starting my blog. The question usually follows an ongoing discussion with the person explaining how their version of god still loves me very much.
The answer to this question is written in their beloved Bible. I will be judged when I die for not believing Jewish folklore, inconsistent testimony and flawed teaching from 2,000+ years ago.
My punishment will resemble one of the many beautiful biblical descriptions:
- Swimming in a lake of fire suffering the “second death”. (Revelation 20:14-15)
- Discarded like a stick and burned while I weep and gnash my teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42)
- Thrown to the ground and trampled like worthless garbage. (Matthew 5:13)
- My blood will wash over the feet of righteous believers while their dogs also get their share. (Psalm 68:20-23, psalm 58:10-11)
- Thrown into a lake with a millstone tied around my neck. (Matthew 18:6-7)
Does that sounds like justified punishment for not believing a flawed storybook? I can fully understand why so many people would believe and worship this “righteous” god. They’re motivated by fear.
Whenever a Christian asks this question, they need to realize that it undermines everything else they claim about their faith. Is Christianity about living in eternal bliss in a fantasyland with Jesus, or about NOT being brutally tortured for eternity? Are you more exited about heaven, or more terrified by hell?
I’ll end with the same question, “what if you’re wrong”? What if Allah is waiting for you in heaven? Or there is no god and you’ve wasted your life praising and serving an imaginary guy in the clouds?
If Christians are correct, the “True” God is waiting to throw 70% of the world’s population into hell. Doesn’t that seem ridiculous to you?
Tags: Agnostic, Atheist, Bible, Burn, Christian, Christianity, Devil, Eternal, Eternity, Fire, God, Hades, Hell, Jesus, Judgement, Punishment
August 9, 2009 at 9:58 pm |
One more thing I’d like to point out is how the servants of God *ALWAYS* dodge this question. Commonly, circular logic is used. God can’t possibly not exist, because the book says he does. >_>
August 9, 2009 at 10:04 pm |
Seems to me, a believer, that the Biblical threats of punishment would be of no consequence to the non-believer. If the Bible is “flawed teaching” and “Jewish fokelore” then there can be no punishment after death.
Maybe after death, for the non-believer there is just… nothing.
The Christian holds to God’s promise of eternal life – it is not our place to judge.
August 9, 2009 at 10:13 pm |
Biblical threats are of no consequence to me. The purpose of this post was not to discuss whether the Bible holds any value to me. Christians are the ones asking me “what if you’re wrong”. I’m not spending any time obsessing about an imaginary hell.
After death, there is no reason to believe there is anything other than nothing. Christians just waste way too much time obsessing about it.
August 10, 2009 at 12:03 am |
Let me see if I understand this.
The believer acknowledges that the threat about a nasty afterlife for a non-believer is of no consequence to the non-believer, that it is as nonsensical as the promise of eternal life with God. This acknowledges that the threat is of no value in evangelism since it is believable only to believers; and also of no use in bringing back anyone who has stopped believing.
So what is the purpose of a threat which is believable only to believers? Why does it exist at all?
Hypothesis 1: Hope that the threat may terrify some gullible non-believers into believing, despite the acknowledged absurdity.
Hypothesis 2: To make sure that believers are too frightened to ever think carefully about what they believe. And if a believer ever mentions such careful thinking to another, that other believer can come quickly to the rescue by reminding about the threat; with any luck, this will occur before the careful thinker has had time to discover the unbelievability.
Hypothesis 3: To motivate believers so that they will pester non-believers about the benefits of believing. This reinforces the notion in the minds of the pestering believers, keeping them safe from non-belief. It relies on Hypothesis 1.
Hypothesis 4: All of the above.
The result is the general hypothesis that the purpose of the threat is internal discipline within the Christian community and it works so well that many believers think it ought to persuade non-believers.
August 10, 2009 at 7:54 am |
I’m going to go with #4, and add that it also has the purpose of telling believers that they are special, and superior to all those going-to-hell people.
August 10, 2009 at 9:37 am |
You don’t have to believe in something for it to be true. But you will only act on what you believe.
Threats of eternal punishment are not the way to evangelize – the promise of eternal life is more effective.
At the end of the day you believe you are going to die and become nothing. I believe I am going to live after death.
August 10, 2009 at 11:20 am
But you still believe almost everyone who has ever lived is going to hell based on an arbitrary standard.
Basically, the belief is that you’re getting rewarded because you lucked out and where born in the right place at the right time by the right parents, not based on the merits of your life.
August 10, 2009 at 11:26 am
Threats of eternal punishment are not the way to evangelize – the promise of eternal life is more effective.
Absolutely! That’s why I am here to make you this incredible offer: worship me and I’ll grant you two eternal lives! No extra cost.
August 10, 2009 at 11:35 am
Ergo,
This “belief” of yours is based entirely on childish wishful thinking?
Then why not believe in Santa Claus? He might just bring you presents every Christmas. No guarantee that eternal life is among them though.
August 10, 2009 at 12:54 pm
@ Butterfly
“Ergo,
This “belief” of yours is based entirely on childish wishful thinking?”
What evidence do you have of my thinking? What is the rationalist evidence that supports nothing after death?
How do you prove a negative?
August 10, 2009 at 1:47 pm
>Threats of eternal punishment are not the way to evangelize – the promise of eternal life is more effective.
The truth is even more effective, long-term.
August 10, 2009 at 2:26 pm
JeffMo–
As they say, “The truth shall set you free.”
August 10, 2009 at 5:52 am |
> If the Bible is “flawed teaching” and “Jewish fokelore” then there can be no punishment after death.
Non-sequitur.
August 9, 2009 at 11:42 pm |
August 10, 2009 at 1:11 am |
Here’s my two cents to this post:
The below is quoted from Atheist Universe by David Mills —
If, however, you reject the teachings of ID and Christianity in
general, then those who espouse those theological doctrines
believe that you will be gruesomely tortured throughout all eternity
for your decision. Your flesh will literally be set ablaze after
you die, and you will be given a special, indestructible body
Intelligently Designed to suffer unimaginable torment forever.
Even your tongue will be set on fire according to Scripture (Luke
16:24). For your acceptance of secular science, you will be eternally
barbecued by the devil. Although they are too embarrassed
these days to publicly confess their certainty of eternal torture for
all non-Christians, the Intelligent Design movement still believes
that your fiery roasting is looming. If only on this basis, we
should dismiss ID as both irrational and inhumane.
Discuss.
August 10, 2009 at 2:39 am |
I think this is a question that tends to waste a lot of time. I’m not worried if I am wrong and I only worry about christians being wrong when they are trying to force their views on others. That doesn’t actually happen very much to me personally, the only christians that seem to be seriously pushing are those that are in it more for power then real concern for people.
August 10, 2009 at 6:04 am |
I’m pretty sure Hell is alot more awesome than it sounds. Here you spend your entire lifetime doing the devil’s work, why would he punish you?
August 10, 2009 at 7:56 am |
Plus, all the cool kids are going to be there.
August 10, 2009 at 11:44 am |
I’ve always wanted to see what Einstein’s bad hair day really looked like.
August 10, 2009 at 7:33 am |
More importantly, if you’re Satan, and you want to turn as many people away from God as possible, wouldn’t you make Hell as cool a place as possible?
Beer volcanoes everywhere!
August 10, 2009 at 7:48 am |
Beer volcanoes are in heaven. Right next to the stripper factory.
August 10, 2009 at 9:39 am |
If I’m wrong, then the question becomes, “Who is right?”
Since there is no possibility that the main deity described in the Bible exists, I needn’t worry about any of the numerous conceptions of hell imagined by the Christians or Jews. I’d be just about equally dismissive of the Muslims and any other religion that proposes any personal or involved deities.
So I’m left with things like Taoism, Buddhism, New Age type religions, and some others. All of them don’t threaten me with anything nasty. So, nothing to worry about.
August 10, 2009 at 9:50 am |
If God sends you to Hell for not liking him (petty and vindictive) as a punishment. Why would Satan (supposedly God’s enemy) torture you for all eternity?
The only logical explanation is that God employs Satan as his henchman and enforcer like some gangster. It’s not very Christian is it?
Satan is only following God’s orders, but gets all the blame!
August 10, 2009 at 12:10 pm |
The Christian lore seems to present Satan as a kind of obsessive sadist who always acts for the explicit purpose of causing pain, injury, and harm. So there is not likely to be any more logic in the satanic part of the system than in the godly.
August 10, 2009 at 8:01 pm |
“The only logical explanation is that God employs Satan as his henchman and enforcer like some gangster. It’s not very Christian is it?”
You know, this is very interesting. Do any Jews visit this board? I believe they have Lucifer and Satan as two separate beings – one being the rebel, and the other actually still being under the employ of God, his sole purpose being to convince God that any given soul should not enter heaven.
I could be wrong tho.
August 10, 2009 at 9:55 am |
“Reason is the Devil’s whore.” — Luther
Message from an insubordinate reasoner
Xianity cannot be refuted; it can only be dismantled. The de-deification of culture (including the sciences) is our task for the next 100 years.
Xianity would not have survived without its secular welfare benefits (50 CE), later imperial patronage (313 CE), and finally the destruction of antiquity under the jack-boots of theocratic Byzantium (450 CE).
The very earliest xians (50 CE) certainly received benefits in the-here-and-now for their faith: group solidarity, decent burial of the dead, and ideological support, especially nurturing anti-intellectualism, antisemitism, and class hatred. (1Cor1:19-28)
Doubtless, xianity still has secular “prizes” to offer as it has for 2,000 years. — But psychological comfort, communal warmth, common political action, pathways for employment, fraudulent enrichment, and political power — are irrelevant to the truth of any claim, whether made first by Paul or later writers of Jesus legends, whether accepted into xian orthodoxy or not.
Members of any sect within islam, xianity, judaism, or zoroastrianism (the big-4 monotheisms) can cite their myths, cultic practices, endlessly circular magical texts and commentaries (“theologies”) to equal effect.
Citing scripture in defense of itself is totally illogical. The monotheists’ magical texts are neither self-guaranteeing nor divinely inspired. They are fictional recruiting propaganda. Their theologies are fifth-rate fan fiction.
What uplifts me, what comforts me, what I’m willing to die for . . . is no evidence whatsoever that my belief is true or false.
Such reasoning exemplifies ignoratio elenchi — lack of any logical connection between statements about anyone’s actions or psychological states and any religious claim. Faith provides no reasons — that’s why it translates ‘pistis’ (trust) and not ‘episteme’ (knowledge).
To directly attack an entrenched institution has value only as a way of dislodging culturally conditioned believers. These usually are young adults, indoctrinated by parents, further brainwashed by other “authority” figures, and punished by society or law for “insubordination.”
When the cultural cost of membership (submission) exceeds its perceived benefits — the previously faithful vote with their deserting feet.
anti-supernaturalist
August 10, 2009 at 1:52 pm |
>I’ll end with the same question, “what if you’re wrong”? What if Allah is waiting for you in heaven? Or there is no god and you’ve wasted your life praising and serving an imaginary guy in the clouds?
You might even try asking those Christians, “Are you really sure that’s a logical thought process? Do you actually believe that the ‘what if you’re wrong?’ question should be a convincing reason to convert or reconsider?”
Then you can ask them why they haven’t converted to some other religion that promises even worse avoidance-worthy punishments than Christianity.
August 10, 2009 at 6:10 pm |
[...] The big question for every atheist … “what if you’re wrong?” Several Christians have asked me this question since starting my blog. The question usually follows an ongoing [...] [...]
August 10, 2009 at 10:10 pm |
[...] 11, 2009 at 12:10 am (Uncategorized) I ran across an article that posed the question “What if [Athiests] are wrong?” It’s an interesting [...]
August 12, 2009 at 5:48 am |
This comment here is the BIG Reason why I see “Christians” as arrogant, fear monging know it alls..
So, my wife and I really love each other, however, due to God’s rules now, when we die, she goes straight up to a nice cloud in the sky, and I cease to exist. Won’t she miss me eternally? I wasn’t a bad person, yet God would eternally punish my wife because of the way I felt? I did not want to buy into the fairy tales and crapola and yet, God would punish my wife?
Wow, what a great God, eh?
Or I suppose, God would either “brainwash” my wife upon her arrival at the pearly gates that our love was really not a good love, and probably even set her up at a singles bar in heaven, sorta like those “singles nights” the Christians do here.. LOL… My time on earth meant nothing then..
Well, I guess there’s only so much room anywhere.. LOL..
This is the kind of mentality that made me say “Christianity” is simply a means to control people…
August 17, 2009 at 2:38 am |
There’s something funny I always thought about hell and the devil, and demons torturing humans : as a matter of fact, according to the bible, being in hell won’t pleasant “at all” for anyone – away from god’s presence, you know. That includes the devil and his minions. I really doubt they will spend eternity playing with us, probably being in the same plight as humans should be =P
August 17, 2009 at 7:44 am |
You need to realize that we are being sarcastic. The devil and hell are imaginary.
What plight “should” humans be in? You think it is justified for God to burn me in torment for eternity for not believing in an extremely flawed ancient book full of folklore and hearsay? That is the actions of a just God?
It is your choice to be afraid of God, demons, minions, the Boogie Man or monsters under your bed. But life is much more fulfilling living joyfully rather than in fear.
August 17, 2009 at 3:04 pm |
I wasn’t really saying it in the optic of the sarcasm =P I don’t believe either in god, or demons or a lake of fire – maybe should’ve been more specific…
I do fully agree with the fact that god must be a total loony if he’s as described in the bible. But I was more talking about the representation a lot of people – including christians – do have about that fire-pond…
So I do fear other things – like is my project going to run ? how can I stay life-long with my fiancee ? – but I certainly don’t rely on god-fear to carry on the right efforts to succeed in those challenges
August 17, 2009 at 8:48 am |
“It’s not very christian is it?”
Being influenced by the old testament rather than the new, it does seem Jews and Muslims are more accepting of their god being a vengeful, fire and brimstone character, whereas Christians see him as a cuddly, forgiving sort.
The idea of heaven if god likes you, and hell if you don’t like god seems like a sort of “holy” rendition.
God wants you tortured but doesn’t want to be seen to condone it so gets someone else to do it out of sight so he can maintain deniability.
August 21, 2009 at 9:46 am |
[...] “What if you’re wrong about atheism?” I try to spend time talking and learning from people who don’t believe in Christianity, and their perspective have helped me think critically about my own beliefs. Recently, there was a WordPress post that generated a lot of response. It was a post from an atheist, who was responding to the question that Christians ask him/her: “What if you’re wrong about atheism?” [...]
May 14, 2010 at 1:18 pm |
If the atheism is right, nothing happens. People die and life ends for everyone, right? Christian people or any other person that believe in any religion will have “wasted” their lives believing in something false.
If the atheism is wrong, they will go to hell.
Now which option is better?
1 – Go to hell if i am wrong and disappear if i am right? (Atheism)
2 – Go to heaven if i am right and disapper or go to hell if i am wrong? (Religion)
My conclusion:
Anyone who believes in a religion in the worst case will go to hell if another religion is right, or they will disappear if the atheism is right or they will go to heaven is they are right.
Every atheist in the best case will disapper and in any other cases will go to hell.
May 14, 2010 at 2:43 pm |
Which is exactly why so many people are religious. It’s like an eternal insurance plan just in case god is real and they were lucky enough to select the right one to worship.
For me, it’s just to absurd to waste my time with. All religions are based in such obvious man-made gods that I can’t pretend to believe in any of them. If god is real and sadistic enough to burn me for eternity for not blindly believing in primitive theologies, I can’t say I would want to spend eternity with him anyway.
May 14, 2010 at 9:03 pm |
Just remember that there’s more than one religion and culture in the world. In terms of religion, getting the “right answer” is very slim – hence the need for faith.
Throwing your life to a religion is just like going to a casino believing you’re going to exit the building filthy rich.