Does God ever feel shame and repent for his mistakes? Or is he a perfect God?
God is perfect. His ways and his word are without flaw.
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless.
2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32:4
God apologizes, feels shame, feels regret, repents for his mistakes and openly admits that sometimes his perfect plan isn’t so perfect.
The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.“
Genesis 6:7
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Exodus 32:14
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
1 Samuel 15:35
The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?
Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous.”
Then Abraham said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?” He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Genesis 18:17, 20, 32-33
Tags: God, Bible, Jesus, Conflicting, False, Flawed, Inconsistent, Word, Plan, Perfect, Repent, Mistakes, Shame, Regret, Imperfect
August 20, 2009 at 1:44 pm |
Quite a conundrum. Repentance, in Biblical terms, is only necessary when you sin or make a mistake. God’s not supposed to do either.
August 20, 2009 at 2:09 pm |
This begs the question:
Why would/did a perfect being create massively imperfect beings?????
OR
Why would a perfect being bother creating at all???
August 20, 2009 at 4:44 pm |
You won’t get an answer to the second question. I have tried a few times and no one ever has answered it.
August 20, 2009 at 4:46 pm |
Ah come on you know that you have to have lived in the times and places to really understand it. You are again taking it out of context and trying to make it sound like god isn’t what christians claim he is. I guess I can throw in unless you are a believer you can really understand the meanings in the bible. Did I miss any of the normal come backs?
August 20, 2009 at 8:39 pm |
God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players, to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won’t tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
May 10, 2010 at 8:00 pm |
You have taken an excellent quote from a brilliant man… out of context. Einstein was using the word “God” as a metaphor for nature, he was an atheist and didn’t think non-existent things played cards.
August 20, 2009 at 9:15 pm |
Only atheists are doing the work of God in this age of science and reason,
thousands of years ago God was more proactive, doing miracles, revealing himself etc.
The bible can be read literally as a history of God’s past interventions but the bible finishes up about 2000 years ago and is therefore mostly obsolete in regard to God’s current plan, which started with the advent of science.
God loves us as children but like any parent God would like us to grow up and take care of ourselves our planet and each other. When every human being is atheist, when there is peace, justice & environmental harmony on earth, only then, will God consider revealing any of himself again.
Anyone of faith must consider how they will answer God in the event of the following question
“Why did you have faith in me during the age of science when I did everything I could to stay out of your affairs?”
People of faith are in direct conflict with God’s wishes in the current epoch and may have to answer for it.
Am I on firm theological ground with this?
August 21, 2009 at 9:55 pm |
“Am I on firm theological ground with this?”
Nope.
God’s last intervention – the death and sacrifice of Jesus Christ – was the ultimate act needed to restore our broken relationship with God. Jesus took on our sin and paid the price of our rebellion against God. All we have to do is believe this and we will attain salvation – that is the definition of faith.
The age of science has brought a few advances, but an equal number of horrors. I’m sure you could list them.
When every human being is an atheist, how do you know things won’t be like the old Soviet Union – the last time athiests were in charge.
How many millions will be liquidated in the name of progress?
August 22, 2009 at 11:31 am |
Faith is belief in things that aren´t based in fact. Since God knows everything he can´t have faith and because he´s alrady the highest power, he doesn´t believe in a higher power, so God is an Atheist.
August 22, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Interesting question: Does God believe that God exists?
I’ll have to ask him some day.
August 23, 2009 at 9:30 pm |
Another misconception of Christians and the propaganda that got “In God We Trust” placed on our money. Soviet Russia was not Atheist. The government was secular, as it should be, as the USA was FOUNDED by our Founding Fathers. The people however followed the Russian Orthodox Church. Yes religious leaders were ousted and replaced when they started speaking ill of the government or involving themselves in politics. I personally feel this is a damn good thing that should happen in the US.
Separation of Church and State is what we were founded on and something we must return to. Any church that decides to involve itself in politics needs to have their tax exemption status revoked!
August 21, 2009 at 1:46 am |
There is an intriguing question earlier: Why would a perfect being bother creating at all?
I am not sure what it means to say that a god is perfect or how perfection would relate to creation. Why a god would create anything is a very general question and speculation probably should start with some very general ideas about gods and ignore most of what the Bible says. Here is a speculation that I have already spent too much time on and is not even close to a real answer.
God is presented as creating the universe, so god must be outside the universe. The usual assumption seems to be that a god does not need anything to live. No one ever suggests what kind of environment a god lives in or whether he has any divine friends (peers, that is, in that superuniversal environment that god inhabits). But generally all monotheists seem to think that god is unique.
Suppose you are something intelligent and powerful enough to create a universe, but you are all alone and have nothing to do because you eternally exist without the need to acquire energy in any way. How do you keep from being *B*O*R*E*D* *S*I*L*L*Y*?
Maybe you make a toy. What is a suitable toy for a god? What would challenge his abilities? Maybe a universe. Maybe a series of universes, each bigger, more complex, more majestic than the previous. Make one; learn what you can; scrap it. Make another, building on what you learned from the previous.
Apparently I am assuming that a god does not know everything that will happen into the infinite future. This needs to be considered. Omniscience would mean that god would know everything that he himself is going to do forever before he does it. This would make god no better than an automaton, some kind of divine robot without free will. Could he have free will and at the same time know ahead of time what choice he will make? Can he be free to do a thing he already knows that he is not going to do? This sounds like a paradox. Maybe, therefore, a god is incapable of being bored because he is incapable of curiosity — not least because he already knows everything he might wonder about. And incapable of independent thought because he knows everything that is going to happen. Thought independent of what? There are paradoxes in every direction.
I think, therefore, that absolute foreknowledge is a logical impossibility. At least, it precludes a god who is able to think and respond to events in a way that we regard as intelligent. A god’s abilities might well allow him to make very good predictions and be right nearly all the time, and to a creature in one of the universes it might appear that god knows everything. But it cannot be literally true.
This brings us back to those toy universes. The design criteria would be that a universe be able run automatically based on a good set of physical rules but have just enough randomness to create occasional interesting phenomena. And maybe surprises a god might be sorry about if he starts trying to micromanage events in a universe he created.
August 21, 2009 at 8:41 am |
That’s pretty darn good.
A note on infinite knowledge: It really is impossible. Here’s why. To have infinite knowledge you would have to know everything down to the spin state of each subatomic particle. BUT, where are you going to store that knowledge?
To make matters worse, you’d have to know where you stored all that knowledge, and you need someplace to store that knowledge, then you’d need someplace to store the knowledge about where you stored the knowledge about all the knowledge in existence……… and so on. It gets silly.
August 23, 2009 at 12:29 pm |
Plus, you have to keep all that information up to date; and a substantial fraction of it is changing every picosecond. And you probably need historical data for some of it.
August 21, 2009 at 10:01 am |
[...] I’m in love #atheism http://bit.ly/vm8JAConflicting Bible teaching of the week: #atheism http://bit.ly/5Lw12Believe in God? Don’t Drive the Bus #atheism http://bit.ly/ad36NSensible Advice #atheism [...]
August 22, 2009 at 2:43 am |
One thing you’d have to realize – as Lord of the world God has all the authority to redefine the word “Mistake” to specifically exclude any particular incident where he screws up.
Therefore, he technically never makes a mistake. <_<
August 22, 2009 at 5:21 am |
How come if the Biblical God would spare a city for the sake of 10 righteous, his modern followers tend to the “Kill them all, God will know his own” approach? BTW, this quote is attributed to the knight Simon de Montfort, getting ready to wipe out a city full of Cathars.
August 22, 2009 at 5:26 pm |
I wonder what Stalin said before he ordered the destruction of Berlin?
August 22, 2009 at 5:57 pm |
Destroy Berlin !
August 22, 2009 at 6:04 pm |
I thought it was a combination of bombing and in the street fighting that pretty much destroyed the city of Berlin. Yeah Stalin was part of those that decided to fight for an unconditional surrender but it was all that decided it.
August 22, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Warsaw then.
August 23, 2009 at 9:36 pm |
Berlin, Warsaw…. do some real research and learn about the war before you speak, right now you are grasping at straws. The destruction of the cities as the Russians marched through was caused by many factors. The Germans would not surrender and the Russians wanted revenge for what was done by the Germans within Russia. Remember Stalingrad is a good example here.
When your enemy is heartless and relentless you must often be as well. And hey, face facts, Hitler was a Catholic and he was a lot worse than Stalin.
August 22, 2009 at 7:50 pm |
lol… I have a love/hate relationship with how you misquote verses and take them out of context. It amuses me to no end, but its really sad for someone who called himself a man of integrity.
your first verse, Gen 6:7 – this expresses the great sorrow that man had turned away from God -> sorrow that he had made them. So you’re pretty much claiming God doesn’t get upset when people turn away?!
So God getting upset… that throws up the question, did God plan poorly? Well, put simply, no. I ask you to do some reading, and think about God’s purpose in creating us. Do you picture God as a blown up version of yourself – someone who just wants friends? Wanting to make stuff to make himself happy?
If yes, that’s a pretty narrow view. Maybe you should re-discover God.
Exodus 32:14 – relented, not repented. NIV translates it as “Then the Lord RELENTED and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
Next, even if you do substitute ‘repented’, here it expesses the turning away from, and most translations that do not have relented portray the same idea.
So, the lesson – stop adding your own meaning to the verses!
1 Samuel 15:35 – again, this expresses great sorrow that God had made Saul. The literal translation is “Yahweh was grieved” rather than “the Lord repented”
And finally, Gen 18 (randomly quoted verses). Verse 17 shows the relationship between God and Abraham. Note firstly that God has NO obligation to tell people what he’s going to do. But he tells Abraham.
Then, we see Abraham petition for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, who are about to be destroyed because their rebellion against God is so great. So Abraham bravely asks “What if there are 50 righteous people in it? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the 50 righteous people in it?”
Then Abraham boldly petitions again and again, until verse 32 and 33 which you randomly quoted. We see that God is gracious, and accepts Abraham’s plea! And even though there weren’t 10 righteous people there, God still saves those who trusted Him (in this case, Lot’s family)!
I hope that has cleared up some things. I ask you to requestion the basis for your argument, and if you have any more thoughts, post a reply.
Gerard
August 23, 2009 at 12:59 am |
Re Gen 6:7 – This is at the beginning of the story of Noah. Whatever god’s state of mind, the substance of this story is that god seems to have decided that making people was a mistake according to his own criteria because he then executed a draconian and outlandish plan to kill them all by drowning. Except Noah and his family. So either making people was a mistake, or the great flood was a mistake.
Or maybe starting over with Noah’s family was a mistake.
Re Exodus 32:14 – “relented” vs. “repented“, the turning away from a planned action. Whether you say “relented” or “repented”, the substance of this event is that god changed his mind about a plan he had made in anger, and he changed his mind because he was reminded that the action would be a bad idea according to his own criteria. No meaning has been added; the meaning is in the words themselves, including your choice of the words. So either the original plan was a mistake or the later cancellation of the plan was a mistake, supporting theBEattitude’s point.
Re 1 Samuel 15:35 – “was grieved” vs. “repented“. Again, the substance is that God recognized according to his own criteria that his action had in some way been wrong.
And finally, Re Gen 18 – Full (redundant) version vs. Essentials of event. Note firstly that you appear to be content with the idea that god might destroy “righteous” people at the same time as their “sinning” neighbors just because he cannot be bothered even to think about about avoiding collateral damage.
Whether you stretch out the story starting with the petition to spare the city for 50 righteous people and reiterating with smaller and smaller threshold numbers or whether you summarize it with just the final number, the substance is the same: God saves those who trusted Him when before he had intended to kill the righteous along with those who deserved to be punished. This is a de facto admission of a mistake in the original operation plan for destroying the city.
I hope that has cleared up some things. It would be good if you would pay attention to the substance of an argument. And it is so gracious and magnanimous of you to invite theBEattitude to post a reply on his own blog.
August 23, 2009 at 7:51 pm |
God did not create imperfect humans. What he created was “good”. God even gave us free will.
The problem came when man rebelled against God. Adam and Eve wanted to have the same knowledge and power as God and they achieved this – metaphorically – by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge.
We brought God’s judgement on ourselves by this act of will. The rest of the Bible is the story of how this relationship was restored.
August 23, 2009 at 1:03 am |
About God’s purpose in creating us: You may have noticed that that very question was mentioned earlier and the former Christians were as mystified as anyone what that might be. Do you have some kind of answer?
August 23, 2009 at 8:43 am |
Thank you for bestowing your wisdom on me, gerard.
Gen 6:7 – God regrets making humans. If his ways are perfect, he wouldn’t regret his creation. When children misbehave, people blame the parents. But God, the perfect creator, makes imperfect people and blames us.
Exodus 32:14 A perfect God became enraged and almost destroyed people. A perfect God would control his wrathful anger rather than threaten people, only to change his mind later. If it was just and righteous anger, he wouldn’t have changed his mind.
1 Samuel 15:35 God was sad because he wrongly made Saul and put him in power as king. Perfect gods don’t make mistakes and feel bad about them later.
Gen 18 Abraham is more wise than God. God wants to kill everyone and Abraham talks him out of it. Maybe Christians should worship Abraham since he is apparently more merciful and wise than your own God.
You cleared nothing up. The Old Testament God, Yahweh, acts exactly like the primitive men who invented him. I did a blog post on the subject:
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/19/primitive-man-made-god-or-true-god-how-can-i-know-because-the-bible-tells-me-so/
August 30, 2009 at 8:43 pm |
theBEattitude, thanks for your thoughts!
maybe to understand this better we should look at the context. Gen 1, God sees His creation is very good. Gen 3, sin. Gen 6, God is grieved he made man. So what has changed about man? Sin.
Was God grieved at all of mankind? No -> we see Noah, who found favour with God, spared.
So this shows God’s passionate hate for rebellion, and therefore ‘man’, who was rebellious and wicked.
And God executed justice on this sin.
So we see God’s plan – that the righteous will be saved
And that is the beautiful truth we have in Christ!!
Regarding 1 Sam 15, you make a good point, however you say “he wrongly made Saul”. So you blame God for Saul’s rebellion!!!
So you have a problem with God giving people free choice? Wow, I feel so bad for all of us!!! why weren’t we made robots??
Regarding Gen 18 and Exodus 32, it seems that you assume because God had to turn back, he did something wrong in the first place.
But is justice wrong?? On the contrary, is mercy wrong?
If God had destroyed Sodom (or Israel), would that be unfair? Would you call Him a hypocrite, because he executes justice on the wicked?
But He gives mercy – so why do you complain? Isn’t God merciful and just?
God threatened justice, so Abraham and Moses ask for mercy. In Exodus, God turned back his… justice?! and gave mercy. In Genesis 18, God executes justice, and gives mercy. What is wrong in either of these cases?!
Maybe you can only remember a gospel where God is limited to being merciful, and compassionate, and forgiving (He is these things, but so much more!), and you are surprised when you find God is just. Paul neatly summarises this in Romans 6:23.
regarding your other post, I haven’t read it yet, but I’m interested in your thoughts on that, and what research you’ve done into the history of mankind. I’ll read it soon.
Gerard
August 30, 2009 at 10:33 pm |
Gerald–
The big difference between you and myself, is you see the Bible as the irrefutable and inspired word of God. You believe it’s true because it says it’s true. I also did a post on this subject:
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/08/02/the-circular-logic-of-christianity/
The creation story in Genesis is a fictional fable with talking snakes and people who live to be hundreds of years old. God said his creation “was good” according to who? This silly fable is little more than hearsay even if you believe it to be true. Not to mention the fact that no one truly knows who wrote the book of Genesis.
When all of your points of discussion are based in Jewish fairy tales that you believe to be true, it’s impossible for me to dissuade your opinion. You believe God flooded the world and destroyed a place called Sodom. I see it as little more than poorly written fiction by primitive men.
August 31, 2009 at 3:30 pm |
firstly, Gerard, not Gerald
secondly, maybe you miss the point of the whole discussion. You claim that the God of the bible contradicts Himself, and I responded to that using what the bible says. So you respond by saying nothing about my argument, and attack me and the truth of the bible, and you assume I have logical no basis for my faith.
I wasn’t arguing if the bible is or isn’t true. And I’m not a historian, so it’s not my place to argue that.
But I am a chemist, so I have seen all the evidence I need of the existence and truth of the God of the bible.
G
p.s. “primitive” man was probably a lot smarter than you give them credit for… look at the pyramids… or were they part of the big bang as well? The problem is, Darwin and his predecessors saw cells as nothing more than blobs of matter (hence evolution and the big bang was perfectly feasible). But they are so much more complex than anything man could make.
August 22, 2009 at 8:07 pm |
p.s. I am amused at the diversity in personalities and views I see in your readers. Aren’t our brains amazing?? Isn’t God amazing!!!!
Oh, and sorry to step on the proverbial toe, but how does primordial soup explain the human brain? Once you go past looks, they’re nothing remotely similar!
August 23, 2009 at 11:29 am |
Yup.
http://11.media.tumblr.com/ujTIxqfORpwgkq1y3SoujUNeo1_400.jpg
November 1, 2009 at 8:30 am |
Anyone that believes in any religion is obviously incapable of thinking for themselves or asking even the most basic questions. Accepting what you are told because other people seem to believe it is so simple-minded that I wonder how people like that manage to dress themselves.
Even cursory examination of obvious facts should demonstrate to anyone of even sub-normal intelligence that the omnipotent father-figure god of the jewish/christian/islamic tradition does not exist and is contradicted by their own writings and traditions.
Most of the problems of the wold are, and always have been, caused by religion. Mankind will never truly be free until the black yoke of religion is lifted by the clear light of facts and reason.
November 1, 2009 at 10:18 am |
The comments following this post, especially those involving Gerard, illustrate the futility of pointing out inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible, or any other text considered to be infallible and sacrosanct, to believers. Believers are stuck in a logic loop constrained by their simple faith in a book and its mythology.
While we may not see their arguments as logical in a larger context, there is an internal logic that applies as long as they leave certain premises unquestioned. For those who have seen the Star Trek (TNG) episode, Ship in a Bottle, where a holographic simulation goes out of control and Captain Picard, once he’s managed to regain control of the ship, holds up a little cube within which that whole other ‘reality’ is encapsulated, this may make some sense. Believers in the bible and its premises are like the people living out their lives in that little cube. Their universe has its own rules and its own logic. I wish we could contain their world so that they can go on living according to their own logic and their own principles without trying to interfere with the larger reality in which we live, but that simply can’t be done.
While it can be good fun to critique religious texts with like-minded people, taking that discussion to believers is futile, unless there is already a crack, a little doubt, and they have begun to question their own belief structure. What I find most productive is not to debate the textual basis of their beliefs, but rather to engage in the larger social, cultural and ethical issues we all face and to demonstrate, through our lives and our actions, that we can be good without god. While it is true that most of the scientific and social advances over the last 500 years have been achieved in spite of religion, with religious institutions being dragged kicking and screaming into modernity, I think there are more productive approaches. I think we need to rise above the religious cacophony and carry on our message of human concern, promote our secular ethics, by building solid human relationships and behaving in a manner that does not stoop to the hatred of those whose worldview differs from our own.
November 1, 2009 at 11:35 am |
Abram, I agree with what you say. Trying to debate with someone who has rejected every sensible rule of logic and is able to deny the most overt facts, is a lesson in futility.
How can anyone hope to convince someone of facts when they deny that these facts even exist? “None are so blind as those who refuse to see.”
As you say, our resources are better spent developing our own ethos and demonstrating our truths by our daily behavior.
Perhaps if theists did this instead of attempting to force their beliefs on everyone by force of law and threats of violence, they would have more credibility.
November 1, 2009 at 1:14 pm |
If you attribute our intelligence to some god then you do us a great disservice. Human beings are pretty remarkable creatures, building on foundations of past knowledge we have managed to get ourselves this far, and you give all the credit to some invisible man. You know what I have faith in, humanity. Not the humanity of Faux (FOX) News or the humanity of the internet. No, I believe in the human will to survive and how it has got us this far. We never needed a god and the people you constantly berate their own kind like we couldn’t have gotten this far on our own insult the intellect of an evolved primate. You can look at Bobo’s, Parrots, and various other animals to see similar intelligence already developing in less adaptable species THROUGH evolution. The universe and the actual reality we live in is an incredible and improbable reality, and I can be happy with just knowing that. Christians seem to think all men are evil, when in reality, good and evil are subjective opinions without an easy label. You have nothing to apologize for to any god, and any “omnipotent” (funny how you can call him that with all the human qualities you give to your god) being who couldn’t see you did what you had to in your few decades of precious life is not one I want to relate myself with, at all. If you study the bible itself (like I did for fourteen years before I decided being a minister wasn’t right) you will realize that the Christian explanation for reality is that it is some petty dispute and some kind of game between god and the “devil” (because god can’t just destroy evil, he’s too human for that) are the reason for our whole lives. The Christians believe their god actually bets on their existence with an opposite deity, I mean seriously, the leaps of faith just keep going on and on. I have to respect having faith in strange myths, I even feed the Mormon missionaries when they stop by, but don’t try to pose that nonsense as fact. (For references of where I got my information refer to: The Book of Job, The Story of Isaac and Abraham, The Last Temptation of Christ, as well as dozens of other smaller, and less talked about verses)
November 1, 2009 at 1:21 pm |
For some reason it cut me off, I was going to say, also see the story of Dionysus, Quetzacoatl, Moses, David from David and Goliath and Horus for similar myths about messiahs who bear striking resemblance to the biblical christ. All that Christianity did was supplant several major ancient world religions (the Sumerian Flood Story, The Egyptian Trinity, the story of how the animals got to Africa which is a folktale passed down by tribes which later became the story of Noah’s Ark) and their holidays (Christmas = Winter Solistice, Easter = Spring Equinox, and several major saint’s holidays in catholicism which are also directly stolen from pagan relgions) Half of christ’s proverbs and parables are directly lifted from Ancient Chinese Proverbs which predate christ by 2,000 years. The above posters are correct, if someone will not except a wealth of evidence contrary to their belief and bias then there really is no point in debating them at all. Just thought I’de leave my 2 cents for what its worth. Sorry if I wrote a book instead of a comment lol.
January 6, 2010 at 5:48 pm |
theBEattitude an Gerard arguing was very intresting to read. a bunch of people after that come claiming science has more answers then religion
Jesus himself didnt like religion with all the rules, he was much more intrested in the relationship humans (can) have with God. this bible is the manual we need to live our lives right. ive never seen a device come with a manual that told me the whole schematics of the inside of my device, i just learn how to operate it well. i think the bible learns us enough to learn how to live right.
If you claim the bible is not true, then you better be dmn sure! I know i have nothing to lose.
January 6, 2010 at 6:14 pm |
Gohan127 “have nothing to lose.” Here we go with Pascal’s wager again. So, you waste your life and resources in belief in an imaginary god instead of contributing those same efforts to improving yourself and other. Is that “nothing to lose”?
You’ve never seen a “device come with a manual that told me the whole schematics of the inside of my device” I don’t believe you. I’ve spent over 30 years writing exactly those kind of manuals. If I did one that contained as many contradictions and outright lies as the bible, I’d have been out of business decades ago.
BTW, the word is “teaches” not “learns”. But I don’t expect a theist to pay attention to such things as grammar. That’s just senseless rules made up godless educators that probably also believe in evolution.
January 6, 2010 at 7:04 pm |
I’m sorry my english is far from perfect, i’m happy you still understood what i meant.
I am already contributing to improving myself and others. its quite a statement to say that because i have a relationship with God my contribution to ‘improving myself and others’ is suffering. Like they’re opposites of each other!
And don’t tell me your everyday average electronics come with schematics. When i worked in a hospital with medical devices they had schematics NEXT to their manuals, yes. but that’s not the average equipment you buy at the store.
people are looking for answers. . .. i don’t know everything yet but i know this book helped me find love for myself and others. I’m happy i did not have to reinvent the wheel, instead other people left traces behind of how they tried to find happiness for themselves and others and how much of an connection they still had with reality.
January 6, 2010 at 7:25 pm |
Yes, they are the opposites of each other. If perhaps you spent some time perfecting your English rather than wasting it on religion, and invested those religious resources into directly improving your fellow humans, you would understand what I mean.
The average equipment you buy at the store either doesn’t need schematics or there are no user-serviceable components so they wouldn’t be understandable to the average person. But you made a blanket statement bout that and expected everyone to accept it as fact when you clearly had no clue about it. But that’s normal methodology for theists. Ignore facts and logic while disparaging learning and rational thinking. Both of those are deadly to any religious beliefs.
You haven’t even read the bible. If your say you have you are either a liar, or were unable to spot even the most blatant contradictions and lies. I suspect like most religious people, you simply accept what you’ve been told and “cherry-pick” portions that are then “interpreted for you” by those who would brainwash even little children to keep the cash flow rolling.
For myself, I have never met a “christian who wasn’t a fool, a liar, or a hypocrite. Usually, they are all three.
Why are you even on this site? It’s for rational people that have learned to think for themselves. Have you deluded yourself into thinking you can convert people who have already made themselves free by the power and beauty of their own intellects? Not a chance. Or perhaps you really have some doubts of your own and are looking for some answers that don’t require the total suspension of your mentality?
January 6, 2010 at 7:44 pm |
dude, that’s just blind hatred you’re spitting.
I like hearing people out and picking their brains so after that i can make my own opinion.
the messages at the top where interesting, like this its going nowhere.
January 6, 2010 at 10:20 pm |
One of God’s big mistakes was the Tower of Babel incident.
God thought that people were doing too well, that the cooperation made possible by the fact that they were all speaking God’s own language, English (of course
), was allowing them to achieve too much. God thought that he could slow them down by making them speak a lot of different languages. It did not really work.
But it did give the more arrogant of them the opportunity to waste a lot of time and energy on snide remarks regarding foreigners’ imperfect command of the local language; of which Mr. Smith gives us some examples.
I have no use for religion, but I think that a bigger waste of time is insulting the efforts of someone who has taken the trouble to learn a second language and is trying to use it for real communication. The time wasted on those insults could be better used on proofreading one’s own prose.
Probably, gohan127, you have noticed already, from what you have read here, that theBEattitude welcomes comments from readers of all opinions, even if an occasional reader does not.
January 7, 2010 at 5:22 am |
Verbifex, You really like to attack passing remarks and seize upon them as items of consequence while ignoring real issues. To me, that sounds like a theist or a politician. Are you either or both?
How much time do you think I wasted on a seven-word comment? That is such a picayune item that commenting on it and making it sound like a major issue says far more about you than it does about me. My comment was just a short observation. I could give you far more examples of theist comments that were so enraged they disintegrated into an incomprehensible babble of obscenities and garbled English. These were from people born in the USA and so it wasn’t in their second language. So “judge not, least ye be judged”
Instead of picking on non-essentials, how about pointing out anything I have posted that isn’t true? But avoiding things like that is the usual tactic of theists and politicians. Again are you either?
FYI, I have “taken the trouble” to learn French, when I lived in Quebec, Spanish, when I lived in Arizona, and Portuguese, here in Brazil. None perfectly, I admit. But I never got all huffy when people corrected my efforts. They were only trying to help.
January 7, 2010 at 7:02 am
Just a note: i’m an open minded person and i’m just here do to some sparring, brainstorming together. i’m by no ways perfect and like to lend an opinion before i make one.
jabster, you’re right that people can live lives having a happy family and having a happy life without the bible. its true there are other “manuals” that will work or people just finding their own way. In my life i came across friends where some family lives where completely broken and i see the culprit going straight against the bible (or koran etc for that sake) but still completely legal (i live near amsterdam
).
so many rules Jews followed because it was how God wanted it later science caught up and found out these rules just help you to live a healthy life.
here is something i have not researched but just assumed so far:
God doesn’t perceive time like we do, he can travel back and fort how he wants. if i could make my own world then of course i would tell my minions i’m always right and that my wish is not just a command, it’s the law. and for now i assume that either nature has a scary realistic mind that is present everywhere working together or there is just a supirior being that has nature in his control.
January 8, 2010 at 1:02 am
“In my life i came across friends where some family lives where completely broken and i see the culprit going straight against the bible”
This still doesn’t mean the Christian god is true.
“so many rules Jews followed because it was how God wanted it later science caught up and found out these rules just help you to live a healthy life.”
The Bible is in no way a reliable guide to scientific understanding of medial issues or otherwise. It got many, many things totally and utterly wrong and it’s science that has created the modern health system not words of wisdom from the Bible.
“if i could make my own world then of course i would tell my minions i’m always right and that my wish is not just a command, it’s the law.”
If there really was a hyper-power and intelligent entity that created and in some way controlled the entire Universe why do you think that humans would be able to understand how its “mind thinks”. I very much doubt human language even has the capacity to describe it let alone understand it, yet main stream religions all try and attribute human characteristics to their chosen god.
“and for now i assume that either nature has a scary realistic mind that is present everywhere working together or there is just a supirior being that has nature in his control.”
Why do you think that some entity has to be in control? There is no evidence for this entity and this thinking comes far more out of wanting to assign meaning and purpose to something than any evidence. There is no evidence for a creator god far less the Christian god.
In the big scheme of things the human race is totally insignificant. The Universe doesn’t “care” about our existence any more than wind “cares” whether it blows the roof of a house or provides a cooling breeze on a hot summers day.
January 8, 2010 at 5:35 am
your first point (1) doesnt point out God is true and i dont think we will get that evidence in this lifetime. If christianity was not a belief bu a fact it would have been proven a long time ago. but it does prove that the bible can help to live a normal enjoyable life for everybody.
“The Bible is in no way a reliable guide to scientific understanding of medial issues or otherwise”
I’m interested in this, do you have examples? the bible is not a medical book with all the answers. but it did give rules like washing hands before eating, not eating pork etc that were first seen as stupid but later science caught up. If you real prove i can look up the verses for you, just ask.
point (3) now, it might indeed be stupid of me to try to ‘think like Goc’ indeed the bible also states that we just can’t follow his ways of thinking. But i want to understand, stupid as it might sound. just like science also chases impossible goals.
i don’t have hard proof a greater entity exist that controls everything. but i don’t have proof of the opposite either. all i do know that everything is falling perfectly together for us. just think about it that energy waves of 20hz-20khz can be heard as sound. if this same frequency keeps rising it suddenly turns into am/fm waves, then at microwaves it gains other effects and going higher it turns into colors. … we only interact with so few frequencies. most of the frequency spectrum is unknown territory that sure does have alot of effects on us. to make it even funnier, this i copied from wikipedia about dark energy: “The total amount of matter in the universe (including baryons and dark matter), as measured by the CMB, accounts for only about 30% of the critical density. This implies the existence of an additional form of energy to account for the remaining 70%.”
so we still have no clue what we are surrounded by but magically things seem to work with us alive and well.
January 8, 2010 at 5:40 am
quite alot of spelling errors i see. james will be pulling out his hair while reading this
“If you real prove i can look up the verses for you, just ask.”
should be
“If you really want proof i can look up the verses for you, just ask.”
January 7, 2010 at 1:58 am |
“this bible is the manual we need to live our lives right.”
You may not have meant to be insulting but statements like the above really do come across as that. The implication is that those who don’t lead thier lifes using the Bible as a manual are not leading thier lifes correctly. Even assuming that all people who profess Christianity really do follow the teachings of the Bible that still leaves 4 billion or so people who you’ve just said don’t lead their lives correctly. I may not agree with what James S said but didn’t someone famous once say “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”?
“… i know this book helped me find love for myself and others.”
No one is claiming otherwise but this doesn’t lead to the conclusion that the Christian god is true only that the Bible has helped you personally.
“If you claim the bible is not true, then you better be dmn sure! I know i have nothing to lose.”
Well unless you’ve choosen the wrong god …
January 6, 2010 at 7:45 pm |
thanks for your time tough
January 6, 2010 at 8:02 pm |
“that’s just blind hatred you’re spitting” LMAO! That’s a typical theist defense when you are confronted with statements you cannot disprove. When you have no facts, logic, or clear thinking, you start spouting nonsense like that. Or “Show some respect!” As is anything as ridiculous is religion, especially christianity deserved any respect.
So run away and hide little boy. You’ve entered a game far beyond your ability to play. Better to pretend this never happened and then you won’t have to answer any hard questions or be exposed to any more proofs that show you are wasting your time.
BTW, My name is not “dude”. Unlike you, I am not ashamed to use my real name and city. If you’re espousing ignorance, intolerance and guilt, maybe it’s better to hide behind a “nick.” That is exactly what religion does, and those are facts, like them or not.
January 7, 2010 at 2:05 am |
“that’s just blind hatred you’re spitting”
Nope, that’s pretty much how you come across …
January 7, 2010 at 4:43 am |
Jabster, I hope you didn’t mean that. I have tried to be logical and as polite as possible to someone who is spouting nonsense and not even original nonsense,
It’s always amusing to see how theists will Make ridiculous claims, presenting them is irrefutable facts, Then when someone challenges those claims and points out that they are impossible and asks for something resembling proof, they hide behind even more silly claims and ignore direct questions and then declare the game over with themselves as the winners.
If it’s hate,to be factual and logical, maybe the dictionaries need to be rewritten.
January 7, 2010 at 4:52 am |
“I have tried to be logical and as polite as possible”
You must have a different meaning to polite or possible then, or maybe this really is as polite as you can be …
“But I don’t expect a theist to pay attention to such things as grammar.”
“So run away and hide little boy. You’ve entered a game far beyond your ability to play.”
“If perhaps you spent some time perfecting your English …”
“For myself, I have never met a “christian who wasn’t a fool, a liar, or a hypocrite. Usually, they are all three.”
“Have you deluded yourself into thinking you can convert people who have already made themselves free by the power and beauty of their own intellects?”
… to post but a few.
“If it’s hate,to be factual and logical, maybe the dictionaries need to be rewritten.”
Or maybe you need to stop acting little you’re some sort of ultra-superior human that wouldn’t waste his time being polite to the ‘little people’?
January 7, 2010 at 5:11 am |
Like many, you seem to mistake simple observations of observed fact for deliberate insults. If someone doesn’t care for the observations, then the problem is not mine.
Perhaps you would like to show which observations are not true?
If you want to see insulting and rude, I should post some of the relies I get from theists when I suggest things such as churches should be taxed the same as all other businesses or that anyone claiming to be a religion should have to prove the truth of their claims. Then you would see insults, rudeness, and even death threats. Compared to the written and verbal abuse i have received at the hands of theists, I have been very restrained on here.
January 7, 2010 at 5:56 am |
“Like many, you seem to mistake simple observations of observed fact for deliberate insults.”
So very true, so for example I could say the picture of you on your website makes you look as though you picked up your fashion sense at a charity shop. Now I do hope you realise that’s just a simple observation of observed fact and not a deliberate insult.
“Perhaps you would like to show which observations are not true?”
That’s strange I thought we were talking about being polite as possible … what does whether is was true or not have to do with it?
“If you want to see insulting and rude, I should post some of the relies I get from theists … Compared to the written and verbal abuse i have received at the hands of theists, I have been very restrained on here.”
How very interesting, firstly you claim you have been polite as possible so I don’t undersatnd why you are now trying to absolve yourself of any wrong doing by trying to claim the somewhat lame excuse of “theists have done worse therefore I’m ok”. Do you imagine that an good excuse for murder is claiming that you know a few serial killers? Of course the other interesting part is you’re know being insulted by both theists and atheists … I wonder what the common theme is here?
January 7, 2010 at 6:13 am |
“I could say the picture of you on your website makes you look as though you picked up your fashion sense at a charity shop” That isn’t an observation of fact, it’s an opinion. If you don’t understand the difference, that’s a personal problem and I’m not qualified to help you.
“theists have done worse therefore I’m ok”. When did I say that? You seem to read into everything what you want it to say with no connection to reality.
The common theme is that stupidity isn’t confined to theists. Thank you for demonstrating that FACT for me.
January 7, 2010 at 6:41 am |
“When did I say that? You seem to read into everything what you want it to say with no connection to reality.”
Oh I don’t know, maybe it was this …
“If you want to see insulting and rude, I should post some of the relies I get from theists … Compared to the written and verbal abuse i have received at the hands of theists, I have been very restrained on here.”
“The common theme is that stupidity isn’t confined to theists. Thank you for demonstrating that FACT for me.”
Yes of course it is, of course it is … now run along and bore some other people with you oh so insightful posts and sparkling wit to those who can appreciate it. I presume we are all just so stupid that we can’t understand how earth shattering intelligent everything you say is. I mean you even put the cap lock key on for certain words … I really can’t compete with such a level of awesome.
Honestly, your posts make you sound like some little child who throws tantrums when anybody disagrees with them … if you acted like you do here in real life then I not surprised you moved to so many different countries. Just how long did it take to piss of the whole of Canada?
January 7, 2010 at 7:00 am |
What an arrogant idiot you are, jabster. So now I am insulting because you deserve it.
BTW, I don’t hit the caps lock key. In fact, I have disabled it on my computer. Because of nerve damage, my left hand, that I normally use for the Shift key, is a bit slower than my right. So sometimes, it doesn’t release the key fast enough. Being human, I don’t always catch it.
As usual, you duck direct questions. I asked “What have I said that is not correct?” I also asked, not rhetorically, if you are in fact a theist or a politician. You sure seem to use the same slimy techniques as they do. But, as I also said, stupidity isn’t limited to any particular group, as you have so amply demonstrated.
I confess, I don’t deal well with stupidity, particularly willful stupidity, and never have. I find it annoying and eventually boring. That’s why I will not longer reply to you. Your ignorance and inability to be a rational person has become boring. So here’s an insult, even you can understand, Obey the biblical imperative to “Go forth and multiply thyself”. (Brother Dave Gardner)
January 7, 2010 at 7:21 am |
“As usual, you duck direct questions. I asked “What have I said that is not correct?”
Which wasn’t the topic in hand, it was about being polite. Where you just so confused by you own awesomeness that you forgot the subject in hand or did you just duck the question as you are accusing me of.
“I also asked, not rhetorically, if you are in fact a theist or a politician … I confess, I don’t deal well with stupidity, particularly willful stupidity, and never have”
Day to day life must be a struggle for you then as you don’t even seem to know who you posted what to. Oh and try reading about the Dunning–Kruger effect you may finding it interesting; on second thoughts scrap that as it will go way, way above your head.
“So here’s an insult, even you can understand, Obey the biblical imperative to “Go forth and multiply thyself”.”
… and as I said run along and bore some other people and when you get abusive comments directed at you again sit back and think why it keeps happening to you.
January 7, 2010 at 7:05 am |
“That’s why I will not longer reply to you. Your ignorance and inability to be a rational person has become boring”
that’s what i tought 9 posts ago
January 7, 2010 at 7:21 am |
gohan, that was intended for jabster. As usual, your theists arrogance leads you to believe that everything has to do with you. I gave up on you answering direct questions long ago. But you are right about one thing, your ignorance and inability to be a rational person is why I gave up on you.
January 7, 2010 at 10:08 am |
“gohan, that was intended for jabster.”
LOL … from the person who stated in a reply to me that “I also asked, not rhetorically, if you are in fact a theist or a politician …” even though the post was in a reply to Verbifex. It must be such a struggle being just so awesome as you are.