Under Christian theology, humans have the free will choice to accept or reject God and to follow or reject the temptation of sin. Assuming this version of reality is true, what happens when you go to heaven? Do you stop wanting to sin? Is it impossible to sin? Or can you still choose to reject God and be sent to hell?
I would guess that most Christians never think about this. And it brings up a number of questions.
If you stop wanting to sin in heaven:
- If sin is a choice in heaven, you can still be immoral and harm other people. Thus making heaven an imperfect place.
- The only deterrent to evil behavior is fear of consequences and guilt. If heaven has no fear, guilt or consequences, what is stopping people from evil behavior?
- If God has the power to stop people from wanting to sin in heaven, why can’t he do it on earth?
If God makes it impossible to sin in heaven:
- Why not bypass earth and create all people in heaven? Does God get joy from watching people suffer? Why put his “beloved” humans on an imperfect planet? Is our existence on earth some sort of twisted game?
- If your free will taken away from you in heaven, how is that a reward? Do you become a slave with every day controlled like a mindless robot? If your free will is taken away, that makes you a prisoner.
- Lastly, how did Satan fall away from God if he couldn’t sin in heaven?
If you can reject god and/or sin in heaven:
- If you can sin in heaven and be sent to hell, how is it different than earth?
- How could evil things happen in a so-called perfect place?
- People would spend eternity avoiding sin and fearing God’s wrath. That doesn’t sound like a joyful eternity.
The idea of a perfect Christian heaven is flawed no matter how you look at it. Either you are a mindless drone, or God is some sort of ruling dictator in heaven still threatening people with hell. Under either description, heaven isn’t a perfect place.
Or there is always the possibility that heaven is an imaginary place invented by ancient Jewish men.
Tags: Atheist, Bible, Choice, Eternity, Free Will, God, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, Perfect, Satan, Sin, Temptation
October 12, 2009 at 3:29 am |
I have actually had some interesting discussions about this with a few different christians. It seems to me that no two christians that can fully agree on what will happen in heaven. There are some chrisians that say there is no such thing as freewill in our lives and it will be that way in heaven. Some say that freewill is there but that our lives are already known by their god. When I hear this I ask how we can have freewill if what we are going to do is already known. I doubt very much that you could say the picture painted by christians about what heaven is allows for freewill. I actually think that christians define freewill differently then what it actually means.
October 12, 2009 at 3:01 pm |
Not to mention the ramifications of people who God predestined to go to hell. Not only is this in direct opposition to 2 Timothy, where God said He desires all men to be saved, but there’s a more pressing matter at hand: God creates people just so He can torture them for eternity.
That is absolutely disgusting.
October 12, 2009 at 5:15 am |
The main concern is Christians seem to have no idea what true free will is, and are totally unaware that what the Bible labels as God’s gift isn’t really “free will” after all.
It does have the right idea – one must take responsibility for his actions, every action, good or bad, has its consequences – which may or may not affect other people around you. And one must always obey the laws of nature and the land. So be careful what you do, and what you wish for.
Where’s the free will in this? Tho you can choose to disregard these warnings at your own risk, freedom, by definition, does not inhibit, imprison or discourage. There is no free will if thoughts are affected by one’s environment and by the equally limited wills of others.
Religion can call it whatever it wants, but it gets my goat when they try to sugar-coat reality.
October 12, 2009 at 9:22 am |
Good article. I’ve thought about the free will debate over the years until my head was ready to explode. Glad to be… ahem…. free of it now. Still, it’s fun to come up with stuff like this article just to mess with folks’ heads.
I think the conclusion one must come to is either ‘there is no free will’ or ‘there is no heaven’. Both can’t happen.
October 12, 2009 at 11:33 am |
Sin is a condition of mortals. We exist in a broken relationship with God because of our rebellious nature. Free will – in this world – inevitably leads to bad choices because we exist in a condition of sin.
God chose to restore our broken relationship by sending Christ to redeem our sins. And he has done this – so once we are restored to unity with God – “heaven” – there will be no sin. It is hard to know if there will be free will in heaven – but if there is it will not involve sin.
October 12, 2009 at 12:26 pm |
George Orwell coined the term for it: Doublethink- “The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
October 12, 2009 at 12:35 pm |
Why? Isn’t it a sin if my dog covets the neighbor dog’s food? Or if he steals from my neighbor’s garbage can? Or if my dog viciously attacks and kills a child?
Sin is nothing more than animal instinct. Human nature is exactly like every other animal on earth. The only thing that makes us different is our high functioning brain and posable thumbs.
God created earth, just as we are to believe he created heaven. Right? If God is capable of creating a perfect, sinless place and perfect, sinless beings, why isn’t the designer blamed for earth’s shortcomings? He is capable of creating an environment free of sin, but he instead put humans in an imperfect environment full of temptation? And his solution to this broken relationship was to have a man butchered? Hmmm … it all makes perfect sense now.
If there is no sin in heaven, you’re telling me God somehow turns you into a perfect being. He could have done that the first time he created you. But for some reason this God gets enjoyment from watching horrific things happen to innocent people on earth.
October 12, 2009 at 1:20 pm |
“Sin is a condition of mortals.”
Satan wasn’t mortal when he sinned in heaven
October 12, 2009 at 3:44 pm |
Nice zinger Kevin. And thinking on it some more:
Free will – in this world – inevitably leads to bad choices because we exist in a condition of sin.
Inevitably? So it’s a bad choice when we use our free will and decide to help others? or to be decent people? … or to join your religion? (Of course I know what the Calvinist answer will be.)
October 12, 2009 at 5:39 pm
We do not make the correct choice every time – even though we may intend to do so. This is the origin of the phrase “the road to hell is paved with good intentions…”
Can you name one human endeavor that works for the benefit of all – every time?
October 12, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Well, my point is, and will always be – I’m not arguing with you. I beg you to stop calling it free will – because at many points, it isn’t free will in action at all. <_<
If you have no other words for that religious marketing drivel, then find one. Nevermind having to bear the consequences of one's own actions – the fact that others' actions impact upon your life whether you ask for it or not, that's the main argument against the existence of free will.
Nobody's going to solve the problem of evil and free will by making excuses and passing the buck. But that's all believers do, honestly. Every religion is guilty of it.
October 13, 2009 at 6:04 pm
We do not make the correct choice every time – even though we may intend to do so.
I’m curious to know how exactly does one judge if one’s, or someone else’s, choice is the “correct choice”?
Is abortion the correct choice?
Is euthanasia the correct choice?
Is injuring your assilant in a self defence situation the correct choice?
Is pre-martial sex the correct choice?
Is the death penalty the correct choice?
Some people say yes, some say no. Isn’t that miraculous?
Can you name one human endeavor that works for the benefit of all – every time?
I’m sorry but that was, to me at least, a bizzare non-sequitar.
Why do we have to name a human endeavor that works for everyone every time? How does that relate to free will?
And by the way Paul(Can I call you Paul?
), you’re ignoring what Kevin said…
October 14, 2009 at 10:17 am
Butterfly:
“I’m curious to know how exactly does one judge if one’s, or someone else’s, choice is the “correct choice”?
Is abortion the correct choice?
Is euthanasia the correct choice?
etc.”
Your makin my point. Choices have consequences. Our condition of sin infects our will and the choices we make are often flawed as a result.
Jesus came as a healer so Christians should try to follow that example as far as possible. But the Bible is not primarily an ethical document – it is about redemption and salvation by faith.
October 14, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Your makin my point. Choices have consequences. Our condition of sin infects our will and the choices we make are often flawed as a result.
Yes, I think I see how I’m making your point.
However, I think I also see that you’ve completely missed mine.
You mentioned that sometimes we make choices that are “flawed”. This implies that there are choices that are not flawed and that you can somehow recognise them.
Do you think euthanasia is a flawed choice? Why or why not? If you do think so, do you really believe that those who choose euthanasia have not thought it as thoroughly, if not more thoroughly, as you?
Why can’t some people recognise choices that are supposedly deeply flawed even after such long periods of soul searching and sincere thought?
According to you, sin only infects our will; it doesn’t rip it to shreds.
Do you really think that all atheists are twisted lunatics with a life that is consumed by “sin”? If so, that’s quite a thing to say…
October 12, 2009 at 5:35 pm |
My statement was that sin is a condition of mortal humans. Are you asserting that it also exists elsewhere?
October 13, 2009 at 9:47 am
Uh… Paul… Kevin shot that down in flames.
October 13, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Well I might agree that Satan sinned – how does that invalidate my assertion that the condition of mortals is to be in sin?
October 13, 2009 at 6:09 pm
It invalidates your assertion that sin is a condition of mortal humans and mortal humans only.
That was red herring.
Here’s something for thought Paul M:
Is it a “sin” for a lion to steal a leopard/cheetah/fellow lion/some other creature’s kill?
October 14, 2009 at 10:11 am
Butterfly -
I said sin is a condition of mortals. You infer “only mortals”.
What Satan did or did not do has no affect the human condition of sin.
October 14, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Paul,
What about my lion?
October 12, 2009 at 2:02 pm |
I just don’t care.
October 13, 2009 at 3:57 am |
People that go to Heaven are pre-selected.
They are the good guys that respected all the rules, that exist exactly for this purpose.
God knows that they will not sin.
I agree that God could have sent us all directly to Heaven: a God that can’t give us free will without also making us live in a cruel world is far from omnipotent.
I find this latter to be a far better argument.
October 13, 2009 at 7:29 am |
They are the good guys that respected all the rules
Christian notions of salvation vary. Quite a few Christians throw in with salvation by faith. Accepting this doctrine entails that people who did sin, and who did not follow the rules, sometimes at great expense to others, can attain salvation just by believing.
October 13, 2009 at 3:13 pm |
Exactly. We are saved by faith, not works.
Salvation is not about what you do, it is about what you believe.
October 13, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Which is totally ridiculous. God saves people who convert on their deathbed, but totally, I mean totally, ignores the people who actively AND actually do any good only if they ignore him.
Now, if this were true, I’m afraid this proves some of the articles that the blogger here has written. Imagine the slippery slope you get when loyalty has a higher priority OVER any desire to help one’s fellow man.
(No wonder we have the saying “nice guys finish last” eh?)
If God allows people to cheat this way, I’ll convert over my dead body. (and yes, you can interpret this however you please. >_>)
October 14, 2009 at 10:21 am
Chicken:
“Which is totally ridiculous.”
Why?
Salvation is not a matter of counting up the good works one does until you qualify. You can’t get to heaven by what you do – it is what Jesus did for all.
October 14, 2009 at 10:47 am
Salvation is not about what you do, it is about what you believe.
Unless you accept the book of James as an inspired part of your bible.
October 14, 2009 at 1:16 pm
LeoP:
James is all about how your faith informs your actions – not about what is required from you for your salvation.
October 14, 2009 at 6:38 pm
If the only thing you have to do to achieve “salvation” is to have faith, then what exactly is stopping you from any unethical behavior?
October 14, 2009 at 6:48 pm
“Salvation is not a matter of counting up the good works one does until you qualify. You can’t get to heaven by what you do – it is what Jesus did for all.”
It’s ridiculous not because you’re not rewarded for good works. It’s because you’re executed for a trivial offence. Which, mind you, doesn’t actually hurt anyone.
If I doubt God for example, I don’t hurt you. <_<
Now, you can argue whichever way you want, but point is, I don't make you lose your life, your livelihood, or your future, or your dreams through my doubt of God.
I thought quelling passive dissidents was for autocratic, tyrannical monarchies. Like the ones run by Pol Pot, who bashed in the heads of people wearing spectacles. <_<
October 14, 2009 at 7:28 pm
In addition, never forget the ramifications of Butterfly’s statement. Free forgiveness for even the most heinous of crimes or sin, just so long as one believes God allows it, orders it or has forgiven him for it.
That’s why we’ve got Jihad-style terrorism AND a God-supported war on terror, mind you.
October 15, 2009 at 9:12 am
James is all about how your faith informs your actions – not about what is required from you for your salvation.
God Paul! (I mean that literally) you must be the one true God. You wrote it all didn’t you? That’s why you ALWAYS know just what it means. And here I thought you were just arrogant.
October 13, 2009 at 6:14 pm |
So if Hitler believed in a Jewish guy who died on a stick 2000 years ago who only had 23 chromosomes, he’ll be in heaven?(I know, Godwin’s…)
Hey guys, better start building your terracotta army now and we might just stand a chance against the Nazis. Assuming that Stalin doesn’t join forces with him of course.
Oh, and get a couple clay nukes too. We’ll use them as a last resort.
We’re all gonna get to heaven with guns blazing.
October 15, 2009 at 6:35 am |
Quite a few Christians throw in with salvation by faith.
This is actually a VERY good point! =)
October 13, 2009 at 6:23 pm |
But this is nonsense, Paul. Is not an act of belief, a deliberately, chosen belief at that, an “action” of the mind? You do have to “do something” You have to believe. It is certainly sinful in the Bible to commit “thought crimes.”
Francesco: What does your statement mean? “They obeyed the rules.” Salvation by works? Do you claim that Christians sin no more once they are saved? Many professed Christians do horrible things. I know, I know, they are not “true christians” but as violation of any jot and tittle of God’s sacred law is enough to be condemned to eternal torture, even “good Christians” who do minor sins are still not “good” in the eyes of our psycopathic perfectionist of a deity.
October 13, 2009 at 7:12 pm |
To be honest, evil is so pervasive that if one believes with all his heart that he’s done the right thing, he can live as tho he has never sinned.
And that’s a scary thought. Very scary. One can argue that non-believers have no morals – but believe me, there’s nothing worse than having a warped moral system that seems to have been endorsed by God himself.
October 14, 2009 at 10:28 am |
Brian M.
Christians live in sin, just like everyone else. God chose to redeem our sin by sending his son to die for our sin. That has already been accomplished. All God asks is that you accept it. Its like winning the lottery – all you have to do is cash the check. Its not that complicated. Christians say we are saved by God’s grace – his generosity.
What we should try to do in gratitude for what God has done is to live an ethical life. This isn’t easy and it is never perfect, but it is the right response to gaining our salvation by grace.
October 15, 2009 at 6:42 am |
Isn’t that quite twisted that an omnipotent being had to sacrifice an incarnation of himself in order to allow himself to forgive a few guys?
I mean, he could have found a more elegant solution.
October 15, 2009 at 6:40 am |
BrianM: More or less.
I think a Chiristian could easily rationalize this considering real life no more than a “filter” to select those who are worth entering Paradise.
Those guys would not sin.
Then again, all this argument shatters if the Christian believes in being saved by Faith only, Paradise is going to be a very bad place…
October 15, 2009 at 10:27 am |
Boy…wouldn’t that be a pretty small selection…a tiny group, then? Maybe heaven is described as a “mansion” because the seven people throughout history worthy of heaven can easily fit inside a suburban spec builders’ McMansion. But, boy, I bet the heavenly mansion has GLORIOUS bathroom fixtures and a HUGE big screen television!
October 13, 2009 at 8:25 pm |
Another good question is whether there is free will on earth.
Many naturalists believe that all of our decisions are solely the product of internal factors (the physical structure of our brain) and external factors (the environment) that we do not truly control. While we may have the illusion of free will, do we really have the ability to control our will? Or do we merely have the ability to exercise our will, whatever it may happen to be.
October 14, 2009 at 7:50 am |
“While we may have the illusion of free will, do we really have the ability to control our will? Or do we merely have the ability to exercise our will, whatever it may happen to be.”
The question is whether this “we” of which you speak is natural or supernatural. I.e. you apparently wish to address a question within naturalist philosophy with language which is a holdover from dualism.
October 14, 2009 at 8:30 am |
We are obviously born with many things we cannot control. Our brains are wired to think a certain way. Thus the type A – type B personality scale. I make “free-will” decisions based on my experiences and how my brain is wired.
All of these factors effect the way we make decisions, but in the end we still make the decision.
October 15, 2009 at 6:46 am |
No, apparently there is no free will:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/81bc32e4-d5e3-11db-99b7-000b5df10621.html
(It is noteworthy, however, that I didn’t find any other sources for this study…)
Also, every single aspect of our “soul” (memory, passions, skills, tendencies, desires, etc…) seems to be rooted in our meaty brain and influenced or even singled out by accidents, diseases, electrical or chemical stimuli.
“Immortal soul” my ass.
October 18, 2009 at 7:42 am |
Thanks for the great link!
October 16, 2009 at 8:16 am |
You can act in a free attempt to accomplish what you want, but how is it that you decide what you want? I believe what you want is out of your control because it is the product of your physical structure reacting to your environment.
If your desires are not the product of your physical structure/environment, then what puts them there? Is it natural or supernatural? If it’s natural, why do you believe that you control it? Same question if it is supernatural.
October 16, 2009 at 8:19 am |
Put another way, if your desires have an antecedent cause, and you did not create or control the cause, then you have no real control over your desires–only the illusion of control.
On the other hand, if you are truly the “first cause” of your desires, then you accept the proposition that something can be caused from nothing. You are like a mini-God in this scenario.
October 16, 2009 at 9:35 am |
How do I decide what I want? Human desires are the result of culture, genetics and education. If a society says something is desirable, suddenly everyone wants it. We are creatures of habit and by human nature follow whatever our culture tells us we should want. This also includes religion. Do you honestly believe anyone would desire to worship an invisible god if there wasn’t an eternal threat or an eternal reward involved?
Ultimately it is our decision to act on our desires, regardless of where these desires come from. You attribute the power to not act on “sinful” desires to your Judea-Christian god. The temptation comes from a fallen angel that your god allows to tempt us. This supernatural model reads like a primitive storybook. Which is exactly what it is.
I prefer not to look at the world as a bunch of people on the end of a God’s fishing pole. Why does it give you joy to believe you are simply a puppet for God’s amusement?
October 16, 2009 at 11:59 am |
First, I don’t believe in God, so your question about the fishing pole is moot. Nor do I attribute anything to a God. My point is based on a naturalistic world view (i.e., everything, including human life, is entirely natural).
Second, I glean no joy from it. It is just my opinion about how the world works.
Third, I did not think this stuff up. There are many atheists/naturalists who believe that, ultimately, people do not have free will. Get some info here: http://www.naturalism.org/freewill.htm
What I am trying to say is that we humans have no control over the circumstances that cause us to will (i.e., want) certain things. All of the social pressures you describe are part of our environment. We do not cause them. Nor do we cause the neurons in our skulls to be arranged in whatever way they happen to be arranged to make us want to do whatever it is that we think we want to do.
October 16, 2009 at 1:27 pm |
My mistake. I thought the comment was from Paul M.
With that said, I still disagree. I’ve heard the argument before.
We can’t always control our circumstances, but we can certainly control what we do with those circumstances. You’re taking science one step too far. My brain chemistry and neurons effect my decisions, my social circumstances effect my decisions, but in the end I make the decision. I’m not God’s puppet and I’m not a neurological drone either. Our free will is far from totally “free”, but we are not preprogramed robots.
October 16, 2009 at 9:45 pm |
By what mechanism do “you” make the decision? How do “you” control that mechanism? Is there a little version of you sitting in the control panel of you mind deciding which buttons to push? What caused that little guy to come into existence?
Sorry to keep belaboring the point (I can’t help it). I like your blog.
October 13, 2009 at 8:34 pm |
“The only deterrent to evil behavior is fear of consequences and guilt.”
That is not even close to being a true statement; what about love and compassion? Aren’t they deterrents to evil behavior?
“If heaven has no fear, guilt or consequences, what is stopping people from evil behavior?”
Evil comes from the heart. God is not an idiot; people who are inclined to do evil will not enter into heaven.
“Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” (Rom. 13:10)
October 14, 2009 at 5:11 am |
I have to agree with Brain here and this is one reason I am against the death penalty. All the politicians claim it is a deterrent to crime but the stats don’t show that. Fear only works on those that already lean towards the belief that some god will punish them if they do wrong.
October 14, 2009 at 7:36 am |
I agree that love and compassion play a large role. But in the end, it all stems back to guilt and consequences. A person has a choice to do an evil deed, but because of their love and compassion they do not. Why? Because they would feel guilty afterwards and there may be permanent consequences to damage valuable relationships.
Your second statement contradicts the entire bases of Christianity. A serial murderer could enter heaven if they turned their life over to Jesus before they died. By Christian theology, evil people enter heaven every day.
By Biblical standards, all humans are “inclined to do evil”. But you’re convinced the bloody slaughter of a Jewish man transforms you into a super clean evil-proof being in heaven.
You claim God is not an idiot. So the question remains … what is the purpose of earth? If he can create a perfect place and beings without sinful hearts, why not skip earth and create everyone in heaven? God’s army of angels were not required to live on earth before entering heaven. Does he love them more than humans?
Either heaven is real and God is malevolent and cruel, or heaven and God are imaginary I don’t see another option. It is completely illogical to claim the god described in the Bible is loving or just.
October 14, 2009 at 10:32 am |
“A serial murderer could enter heaven if they turned their life over to Jesus before they died. By Christian theology, evil people enter heaven every day.”
Exactly. We are all equally capable of the worst sorts of crime – that is the consequence of our condition of sin. How many days without food would it take for you to kill someone for a meal? Our behavior is mostly a matter of circumstance – not our inner nature.
Christ died for the serial murderer, too.
October 14, 2009 at 10:36 am |
My wife gets to spend eternity in heaven with serial murderers and rapists, while her husband burns for eternity for denying on invisible God. Sounds like an awesome heaven.
October 14, 2009 at 12:09 pm |
Exactly. We are all equally capable of the worst sorts of crime
How many people did God kill in the Great Flood? How many years will He spend in Hell as his punishment?
October 14, 2009 at 12:47 pm |
This would be a good time to go back and look at TB’s Mark Twain quotes. Quite apropos to the point here.
October 14, 2009 at 1:07 pm |
Very apropos:
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/06/12/rational-thoughts-from-a-religious-skeptic-—-mark-twain/
October 14, 2009 at 1:19 pm |
Reginald:
“How many people did God kill in the Great Flood? How many years will He spend in Hell as his punishment?”
I don’t know – perhaps you should ask God.
October 15, 2009 at 8:20 pm |
About that… God asked me to ask you. >_>
See, problem is, anyone who makes claims about God’s intentions by default becomes his spokesman. After all, you are interpreting his words and assuming his intentions your way.
You can point back to the Bible, but that still makes you the Bible’s spokesman, which still holds you responsible for at least the interpretation of contents in your way.
Stop passing the buck to God and the Bible, Paul. <_<
October 14, 2009 at 2:38 pm |
If a person is considering whether or not to commit evil, the decision to not follow through is probably due to the consequences of doing the act. This is because the evil deed germinates in the heart and will either manifest itself when triggered, or it will be consciously suppressed. Either way the evil remains in the heart until something removes it, and that something is love. Evil and love towards another person cannot coexist in the heart; a person will not do evil to someone they love.
Love supersedes evil; if our hearts are sanctified there will be no evil in us. That is what the Scriptures convey to us and ultimately promises to those who love God. None of us possess the love necessary to obtain righteousness, but we (most of us at least) experience love and can, therefore, understand what perfect love would look like. We have people around us that we love and it would be impossible for us to fathom doing evil against those we love. Now imagine that love in a grater sense in eternity and you can see how it is that free will can exist without sin.
Concerning your last point: [let’s pretend you believe there is a God for this one] what makes God cruel; because He created the earth and allowed free will, temptation and ultimately sin to occur?
October 14, 2009 at 4:14 pm |
Seeing as how God can order the slaughter and rape of people He “loves,” being that He supposedly loves everyone, why would rape and murder ever be considered sinful?
This applies to your last paragraph, as well. It’s one thing when God turns people loose and they get the idea to rape and murder for themselves. But, in Numbers, when God tells His people to kill entire cities, even the children, and then take the virgin women as spoils of war, that leaves the purview of “free will” and enters into the realm of divine intervention.
October 14, 2009 at 4:42 pm |
When I start reading words like sanctified and righteousness my eyes glaze over. What you describe is carnal instinct, not evil residing in a person’s “heart”.
I don’t do evil to those I love because I love them. Not because I’m worried about being righteous in the eyes of an invisible deity. And I certainly don’t see how a Jewish man being butchered sanctifies and atones for my wrong doings. The entire belief system is archaic and irrelevant.
As for your last point: I leave you with the words of Mark Twain:
“A God who … gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!”
- Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
October 14, 2009 at 9:12 pm |
Not really Janus, seeing how the Israelites understood why they needed to do what God commanded. It was war; the virgin Midianite women did not seduce the Israelite men, and the Midianite boys would eventually mature and avenge Israel. What happened in that war was not at all uncommon for the culture. It sounds extremely cruel I agree, and if one takes those historical accounts and isolates them from the rest of the Scriptures they cast a very negative light on God. If you take the Scriptures as a whole, however, you can gain perspective on why things like the annihilation of the Midians occurred.
If God had allowed the Midianite women to continue seducing the Israelites into idolatry, the nation of Israel would have collapsed. Everything about Israel and the Law of Moses points to the dispensation of grace. Israel had to succeed in bringing forth Christ under the Law at the appointed time. Christ had to fulfill that Law and become a righteous sacrifice for the sins of man.
God did not section murder He sanctioned life. And unless we can somehow grasp an eternal perspective, we will never fully understand some of the actions taken by God. Also know that God held the Israelite men who allowed themselves to be seduced accountable for what they did, and they too were killed.
October 14, 2009 at 10:57 pm |
“Not at all uncommon for the culture.”
I didn’t realize your God was so weak that He needed to resort to the worst kind of barbarism: commanding rape and murder, because it was “the culture of the time.”
So much for a morally absolutely, all-powerful God. He can’t even abide by one of the commandments He laid down “thou shalt not kill.” You’d think that something so important that he engraved it on stone would be worth preserving. Especially so because God can do anything.
If God could harden the Pharaoh’s heart just so that He’d be justified in, oh gee, murdering children again, then why couldn’t He, for once, show His all-encompassing love by, I don’t know, fill the enemies of His people with love? Why is that not an option? Why, if He has no problem instilling evil and stubbornness in people, would this prove a problem?
Oh, right, because the Old Testament God was invented by violent bigots.
October 15, 2009 at 11:01 am |
You read my comment like you read the Bible, picking out whatever you can easily criticize. At least you are consistent.
While you are pretending to believe in God for the purpose of criticizing Him, why don’t you bash Him for creating you with no ability to see past the ideological bubble you reside in? And while you are at it, make sure you blame Him for the deaths of every human that ever lived. Once you do that you should be satisfied, and then you can happily return to your atheist status.
October 15, 2009 at 12:04 pm |
Brian–
You view our comments through the lens of your Christian belief system. We don’t believe in God. He is an imaginary deity invented by primitive Jewish men.
It is impossible to blame an imaginary being for anything. We are simply illustrating the acts of God in the Bible which is taught as divine truth. If it is true, this god is a malevolent, cruel, sadistic, angry, jealous, women hating, wrathful, impatient, and always inconsistent god. His personality is very similar to the men who invented him.
I did a post on the subject:
http://thebeattitude.com/2009/05/19/primitive-man-made-god-or-true-god-how-can-i-know-because-the-bible-tells-me-so/
October 15, 2009 at 8:34 pm |
Also, one thing you have to realize, Brian.
Speaking as an agnostic AND a polytheist, there is a very good reason why there is a need to “pretend to believe in God” – for the purposes of finding out whether He does or doesn’t exist.
Atheists aren’t the ones claiming the God exists. IF NOBODY TOLD THEM, THEY WOULDN’T CARE – let alone criticize God, or making claims that He doesn’t exist. This entire argument would be moot.
But fact is, people in the world where Atheists live in are telling tales of God as if it were fact – and then threatening them with condemnation if they didn’t believe.
Imagine, if you will, the world is the exact opposite. Everyone’s a staunch Atheist. You are one of the handful who look up to God… and until recently you never realized the possibility that there can be no God.
And you are similarly condemned for being so stupid as to believe in “a fictional being”. You’re this close to being disregarded as having lost your sanity.
You quickly find out that arguing from the assumption that “there is a God” doesn’t work. Same as how an Atheist realizes that he cannot argue for the non-existence of God against a believer who wants to “save others”… without first visualizing God as believers see him.
You can similarly replace Atheists with worshippers of other religions. I see God one way, you see God another. You’re trying your very best to get me to see God *your* way – to rebut me, you have to see God *my way* and, through that, prove that I’m wrong.
In so doing, you’re technically “pretending to believe in God for the purpose of criticizing Him” from my point of view.
See, it’s not that we want to believe in “something” for the purposes of criticizing that “something”. It’s just that, if there’s no visualization, then there’s no argument.
(And yes, I’m sure you’ll be happier if there was no argument, and people just nodded their heads. If you want apathy? Just say so. If people are willing to argue for/against the existence of God and whether the Bible is True… it shows that they CARE!)
October 13, 2009 at 10:53 pm |
sometimes i wonder.. i let go .. then i hold on again.. proly cuz i have nothing else =) that’s it
October 16, 2009 at 12:04 pm |
Here is a good article about the fascinating topic of free will, which is a subject deserving more attention in the atheist/non-believer world.
http://www.naturalism.org/Free%20Enough.pdf
November 9, 2009 at 3:56 pm |
Yes.
February 9, 2010 at 9:22 pm |
Has anyone considered 1/3 of angels in heaven were cast out because they sinned. They were even created higher than humans yet still sinned in the presence of God. I can not understand how the perfected man can not sin in heaven.
February 20, 2010 at 4:19 pm |
Who said angels were perfect?
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