The devil is roaming free to devour and take people captive at his will.
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2:26
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
1 Peter 5:8
The devil does not take people at his will and will flee from you if you resist him.
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
James 4:7
The devil is powerless in hell, tied and chained awaiting his fate on judgement day.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
2 Peter 2:4
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 6
Tags: God, Bible, Contradiction, Hell, Devil, Conflicting, Evil, False, Folklore, Flawed, Inconsistent, Satan, Temptation
October 19, 2009 at 3:05 am |
These verses do seem to indict that the devil is both chained and on the loose. I can say I have heard people using the first two verses in a way but never heard the others from christians. I think this goes to show that much of what is the bible wasn’t written with knowledge of what others were writing.
I have always wondered why there are so many contradictions within the bible, didn’t those that put all the different books together know what each of the books said or were they just throwing things together?
October 19, 2009 at 9:45 am |
It was a political decision. The Bible was created by committee, with undesirable books being included because of certain desirable messages, and vice versa.
I saw an interesting program on one of the cable channels, probably the History Channel, that outlined the development of the concepts of Hell and the Devil in Judaism and Christianity. Basically, both Hell and the Devil are cobbled together out of several different old and new places and characters.
For instance, one of the words that’s used for Hell is “Gehenna.” Gehenna was a real place, the Valley of Hinnon outside of Jerusalem. It was the city garbage dump, where fires burned constantly. It was also the place where bodies of criminals who had been executed were unceremoniously dumped. Elsewhere in the New Testament, the word “Hades” is used, much in the same way that it was used by the Greeks: an abode of the dead. Since English is a language of very little subtlety, all of these concepts are translated as “Hell.”
October 19, 2009 at 10:52 am |
I don’t know about you guys, but when I tell a lion to back down, it backs down.
October 19, 2009 at 8:32 pm |
These verses would make much more sense if interpreted in a metaphorical way as opposed to the strict literal sense that few fundamentalists insist on.
As a matter of fact, they are even starting to sound like the “words of wisdom” that many of us have heard time and again.
The Bible is a book. A book is written by humans. Humans make mistakes. I bet you made a couple typing a response to this post. Humans inspired by God makes mistakes too, maybe less often. Is there really something THAT HARD to understand about this?
October 20, 2009 at 8:38 am |
Butterfly, you make it sound like the majority of Christians see the Bible as allegory and metaphor, not to be taken literally. I’d like to know what country you live in where this is true. I’ve heard that places like Sweden and Denmark practice this type of liberal Christianity. I live in the US, where the two largest denominations are Catholicism and the Southern Baptists. I don’t know about the Catholics, but it is the doctrine of the Southern Baptist Convention that all scripture is the living Word of God, perfect, infallible and without contradiction: it contains no mistakes. We’re not talking about “a few fundamentalists” here. The SBC claims a membership of 16.6 million members in 44,000 churches throughout the US.
October 20, 2009 at 10:26 am |
We’re not talking about “a few fundamentalists” here. The SBC claims a membership of 16.6 million members in 44,000 churches throughout the US.
Sounds very impressive when you say it that way. But the ever-helpful Wikipedia tells us: As of February 2009, the United States has a total resident population of 305 million.
OK. Where’s my calculator? Oh, here it is. 16.6M / 305M = .0544
You need more than 5.44% for a majority. There are, of course, other groups that take the Bible literally. In a discussion on this blog a few months ago, someone cited a news report that one third of respondents to a poll in the US said that they consider the Bible to be literally true.
So, even in the US, “the majority of Christians see the Bible as allegory and metaphor, not to be taken literally”.
The same Wikipedia article cited above for the US population has some charts of populations and percentages for the various categories of religions. There are an awful lot of different kinds of Christian, and different sects within the major branches. And there are some colorful maps showing the uneven distribution of the various religions around the country. The demographics are more varied and complex than you seem to think.
October 20, 2009 at 10:36 am
I stand corrected. The majority of American Christians must not consider the Bible to be infallible or even factual.
I think my point still stands, though. When we talk about people who believe that the Bible is inerrant and to be taken literally, there are still more than just a “few fundamentalists.” It may not be a majority, but it’s a very outspoken and politically active minority.
October 20, 2009 at 10:52 am
I do realize that the “demographics are more varied and complex.” I was only using the Southern Baptists as an example. If I remember correctly, the Charismatic churches (Holiness, Pentacostal, Church of God) also believe in Biblical inerrancy.
I do enjoy colorful maps, though.
October 20, 2009 at 12:11 pm |
Those who believe that the Bible is a rational document – infallible and always factual – are simply misguided.
The Bible contains the Word of God, but it does not come to us in a rational package. God’s truth in the Bible is revealed, not explained.
October 20, 2009 at 12:34 pm
God:
1. Is invisible
2. He does not answer prayer. Statistically, prayer has no affect on the world.
3. Allows an evil fallen angel to tempt and destroy his children.
4. Gives his “Word” in a primitive, irrational and inconsistent package.
5. Does not explain his “Truth”.
6. Leaves it in the hands of highly flawed men to spread his Gospel of Truth.
Yet his judgement is just in throwing people into eternal fiery torment for not believing he exists. I love how rules only apply to humans. God can do whatever he wants and he still is called holy.
October 20, 2009 at 12:40 pm
For an omnipotent being, God sure does spend a lot of time communicating through imperfect means. For an omniscient being, God spends a lot of time communicating vague and easily misinterpreted messages. Just walk into any library or book store and look at the myriad translations of the Bible, all of them contradicting themselves and each other.
October 20, 2009 at 1:38 pm
BE:
1. Because a thing cannot be seen does not mean it does not exist. Gravity, for example.
2. Christians would say that God does answer prayer. It happens that he does this in a way that can’t be measured – in keeping with the non-rational scheme of revealed truth.
3. Temptation is a function of our sinful condition and free will. We have rebelled against God and are living with the consequences.
4. His Word comes to us in the form of literature from cultures and societies no longer current – it is up to us to understand his message in the context of the original audience. This is difficult.
5. His truth is about believing, not understanding.
6. God’s word and God’s will are accomplished by fallible humanity, in spite of our flaws – this is one of the themes of the Bible.
God can do what he want – but he has chosen to send his son to die for our sins so we can be reconciled to him. What we do with our lives is all about showing our gratitude for this act.
October 20, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Gratitude to a god that requires blood to earn forgiveness? Whether it is a lamb or a Jewish man, blood had to be spilled to buy God’s forgiveness. I don’t believe the biblical stories, but they certainly don’t paint a picture of a god worthy of worship.
I save my gratitude for real people that help me without horrific strings attached.
October 20, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Frog:
“For an omnipotent being, God sure does spend a lot of time communicating through imperfect means.”
He knows his audience!
Maybe if we were all rocket scientists God would have chosen a different means of communication. As it is, God went with the method that had the best chance to reach the most people.
October 20, 2009 at 3:13 pm
1. Paul, gravity is not a thing, but it is measurable. God is not. Anything which has no fixed place in space or time and has no measurable effect, does not exist except in our minds. God is a nonspaciotemporal concept. As such, God does not “exist” in any real sense.
2. There is no measurable effect of prayer. See above.
3. God gives us free will, and then punishes us unless we relinquish that will. It’s counterproductive.
4. It’s a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
5. And thus we have blind faith and willful ignorance.
6. You are correct. It is one of the themes of the Bible that God gets all the recognition for anything positive we accomplish, while we get all the blame. It’s a bizarre sort of reward system.
God can do anything he wants, in any way he wants, so he chooses a brutal means to set up a system of salvation which rewards us for abandoning free will and punishes us for enacting free will. It’s bizarre, horrific, counterproductive and inefficient; hardly “intelligently designed.”
October 25, 2009 at 6:26 am
“5. His truth is about believing, not understanding.”
Paul, you’re just not going to make any headway with this group, as much as we might enjoy seeing the workings of a Christian mind. You might accomplish more real good by posting at fundie websites – who knows, helping them think of the Bible as an imperfect book might actually save a life. It’s much sadder to see fundies destroying the planet, persecuting people, and wasting money on churches than it is to see calm, happy atheists being productive members of society. Nothing good was ever accomplished simply by believing, Journey song notwithstanding.
October 20, 2009 at 5:28 am |
If repentance removes someone from the snare of the devil, the devil cannot take him at will. That means the devil takes at will those who are separated from God.
Flee from the devil (repent) and he will flee from you (saved out of his snare).
“Chains of darkness” is obviously not literal. I would think that even an atheist could see that.
Again, no conflict.
October 20, 2009 at 8:10 am |
Being delivered into the “chains of darkness” and “awaiting judgement” translates into roaming free, devouring and tempting people at will?
Either the devil is the god of the earth as Jesus said, or he is chained in hell awaiting judgement. You can’t have it both ways.
Explain to me again why this god gave control over earth to an evil angel he created? He cast Satan out of heaven to tempt and destroy his most beloved creation? That makes sense to you?
October 20, 2009 at 11:02 am |
I can’t tell if you are being extremely literal because it makes it easier to criticize religion, or if that is really the way you see it.
Tell me, what are chains of darkness made of? Are they stronger than a fallen angel? And what are the attributes on an angel? It seems to me that you are picturing some subterranean environment filled with evil angels and their leader Satan all chained to the walls.
Chains of darkness are not literal chains. Awaiting judgment simply means they will face judgment sometime in the future. Hell is not a location, though it can be literally translated as one, it is a state of being like when Jesus told one of His disciples, “Let the dead bury their dead.” It would be unreasonable to take that statement literally, just as it is for you to do so here.
“Explain to me again why this god gave control over earth to an evil angel he created? He cast Satan out of heaven to tempt and destroy his most beloved creation? That makes sense to you?”
I strongly doubt you will understand this, but I will try to give a simple analogy.
Since you told me before that you have read the Bible several times, you are no doubt familiar with terms, “of this world,” and “not of this world.” Satan has no power over those who are NOT of this world. He does, however, have power over those who ARE of this world, or in other words, those who live according to the flesh rather than the spirit.
God’s kingdom is NOT of this world and Satan’s kingdom IS of this world and those two kingdoms are at war. If the people of this world want to remain under their king, why should my King spare them? God did not create Satan’s kingdom, man allowed it and expanded it through disobedience. The kingdom of God is here and many are leaving Satan’s kingdom and entering into it. That sounds like a pretty compassionate King to me. When my King returns, Satan’s kingdom will be defeated and become my Kings kingdom. Then all the subjects of Satan’s kingdom will be judged by my King.
This, of course, is from a perspective you do not have. But hey, you asked!
October 20, 2009 at 11:53 am |
Whether the author intended to describe the chains literally or metaphorically doesn’t make the story any less fictional.
I do appreciate your answer, as I once shared your exact same perspective and faith. But your analogy of God’s world vs. this world doesn’t change God’s malevolence in the story.
By the biblical account, he created humans to live on a planet that he allows a fallen angel to tempt and destroy. He follows up this act by being completely invisible. He then required blood sacrifices and blind faith from humans to earn his forgiveness. Today, if we don’t repent to this invisible Judea-Christian god based on primitive texts, we are tortured and burned forever. Loving? Just? Holy? Seriously?
I’ve yet to meet a Christian that didn’t live “of this world” or the flesh. Everyone is motivated by the same things: love, power, greed, lust, food, water and shelter. Living in the spirit simply means praying and asking for forgiveness afterwards.
I still love my wife, I still help others in need, I still live a moral life by biblical standards. I just no longer give credibility to primitive folklore and highly flawed ancient testimony. The sad thing is that makes me a “subject of Satan” in your eyes.
October 20, 2009 at 12:46 pm |
More linguistic hoops to jump through, to try to make sense of some two-thousand year old politico-religious essays, rantings and correspondences. Is it more likely that there’s some deep, underlying meaning to it all, or is it more probable that these documents, flawed and of negotiable provenance, are simply a patchwork of propaganda never meant to survive even the first century?
If it wasn’t for Constantine, Christianity would have either died out completely, or Christians — like Muslims — would be blowing up (more) buildings in an infantile attempt to give their religion a sense of power and legitimacy.
October 20, 2009 at 9:17 pm |
Based on what you said here [BeAttitude] I don’t think you ever had my perspective. You may have believed for a time, but you could not have had my perspective.
Living in the spirit means to follow the example of Christ and be motivated to love God and others. We are no better than you; we share all the same temptations and fail in all the same ways. The difference is we believe that our sins are imputed to Christ’s righteous sacrifice when we believe and follow after Him. We strive for repentance, which means to turn away from our sins. There are things that we, like all humans, constantly struggle with, but at least we have an advocate with the supreme judge; and we have that advocate because we are not OF this world even though we are IN this world and subject to its temptations. That’s the difference.
I don’t know what you think I mean by “subject of Satan,” but do not mean that I think he dictates your life. It just means you are living in his kingdom not God’s. And apparently that is by choice.
October 20, 2009 at 9:50 am |
Also, the only apparent difference between God’s test and the Devil’s temptation is the deity doing the deed. There is no difference in the method.
October 20, 2009 at 10:08 am |
True, and if you read the book of Job, you get a picture of the Old Testament idea of Satan as “God’s District Attorney.” He’s portrayed as simply arguing the case against the righteousness of mankind, rather than as a force actively trying to steal souls from God, as we see in the New Testament. The conversational nature of God and Satan’s exchanges in Job show that in the Old Testament view, God and Satan were on speaking terms, and that Satan is allowed to be in the presence of God, not locked away in some fiery dungeon.
Basically, the Serpent in the garden, Satan and the Devil are three different characters which have been amalgamated into one, in the same way that other mythological gods, goddesses and heroes have been processed and reconstituted throughout history.
October 21, 2009 at 6:08 am |
But while we’re on the subject of the Bible and its tales, here’s something interesting I’ve learnt. Something which I think I mentioned once here.
The Jews have a different interpretation of Satan and Lucifer. Other branches tend to conflate the two characters, and regard them as one.
Now, one might say it doesn’t matter… until you read up about it and find out that one of these two are actually *still* under the employ of God – it merely just is his job to act evil, in order to test mankind.
But I’m sure the Jews are wrong, and I’m not reading the story correctly, eh?
October 20, 2009 at 2:02 pm |
Just want to say how much I appreciate the skepticism on this site. Helps a Christian like me know how to deal with the rational attacks applied to the Bible and its message.
And the occasional personal insults give the whole experience here a certain zing that I find useful in keeping my emotions in check. And it makes debates on other non-religious websites seem so tame by comparison.
October 20, 2009 at 2:40 pm |
Your welcome. I equally appreciate your calm manner of discussion.
When people disagree on something as personal as religion it too often turns ugly. You are one of the few Christians I’ve discussed with that doesn’t get bent out of shape when someone challenges their belief system. As I’ve said before, if God is real I don’t pose much of a threat to him. Because faith is such a personal thing, I hope my comments don’t come across as a personal insult.
October 21, 2009 at 6:03 am |
My beef is not with the faithful in general.
It merely is with the faithful who act so high and mighty, and look down upon their fellow man for simply having a different idea or interpretation.
And, make no mistake, this sort of disgust extends beyond religion.
So if you catch snark from me, it’s probably a good sign that you’re overstepping your boundaries a little. <_<
November 9, 2009 at 3:35 pm |
“The devil is roaming free to devour and take people captive at his will.”
– This is true. 2 Timothy 2:26 is talking about those who are already in “the snare of the devil” and 1 Peter 5:8 talks about the devils current state of dominion over the earth (see 2 Corinthians 4:4, Luke 4:6).
“The devil does not take people at his will and will flee from you if you resist him.”
– Some reading more into the verse than is written; the verse doesn’t say “the devil does not take people at his will” it simply says, the devil will flee from you. This happened to JC too:
Luke 4:13, “And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.” –> For a *season* (which is a “time” word)
“The devil is powerless in hell, tied and chained awaiting his fate on judgement day.”
– These verse are not actually talking about the devil, which is evident by “spared not the angels that sinned” and “the angels which kept not their first estate…” — this is talking about devil spirits that God *does* have chained up until the end times. There will be a future time when the devil *will* be chained for 1000 years, though (see Revelation 20:4-7).