God commands to not create graven images or idols of ANYTHING…
Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”
Leviticus 26:1
“Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves.”
Deuteronomy 27:15
“Cursed is the man who carves an image or casts an idol—a thing detestable to the LORD, the work of the craftsman’s hands.”
…then turns around and gives specific directions on how to make idols and graven images.
Exodus 25:18-19
“Make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.”
1 Kings 7:15-29
He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line. 16 He also made two capitals of cast bronze to set on the tops of the pillars; each capital was five cubits high … He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it … The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east. The Sea rested on top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center. On the panels between the uprights were lions, bulls and cherubim—and on the uprights as well. Above and below the lions and bulls were wreaths of hammered work.
And let’s not forget all of the graven images of the Mother Mary, Saints and crucifixion crosses that adorn churches around the world. I guess the second commandment doesn’t count anymore.
Tags: Ark, Bible, Cherubim, Conflicting, Flawed, God, Gold, Graven, Idol, Inconsistent, Jesus
November 24, 2009 at 9:55 pm |
Thank you for an interesting look at some Bible passages.
Forgive me for intruding, but these Bible verses are somewhat taken out of context. Also, you’re completely ignoring the definition of “idols.”
If you desire to actually look at some problematic texts (the ones involving numbers, or genealogies come to mind quickly), then be my quest. Those are gist for some fun dialogues. But stuff like this? The apparent anger and spite behind this does not make a case for demonstrating the errancy of Scripture.
November 24, 2009 at 10:11 pm |
“Also, you’re completely ignoring the definition of ‘idols.’”
No he’s not. It says right there “thou shalt not make ANY graven image.” It doesn’t say “thou shalt not make any graven image of a recognized rival deity.”
“Forgive me for intruding, but these Bible verses are somewhat taken out of context. “
How is it taken out of context? Prove it!
“…does not make a case for demonstrating the errancy of Scripture.”
The logical conclusion of anyone who reads these two passages would be either:
(1) The Jews broke the 2nd commandment and made the cherubim WITHOUT any command from God to do so, and then claimed God had told them to.
Or
(2) God is contradicting himself.
Just cry-babying and saying “waaaaaaaaaaa! you’re taking it out of context” does NOT prove anything.
November 24, 2009 at 10:22 pm |
And with 1st Kings 7:15-29 there is good reason to believe that Solomon was making idols, for his wives did turn him away from Yahweh to serve idols and he even made idol temples after making the temple of Yahweh.
1st Kings 11:4-8 “For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. (5) For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. (6) And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. (7) Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. (8) And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.”
November 25, 2009 at 2:17 am |
According to the folks I’ve talked to, the Cross, the Bible and the figures of Christ, Baby Jesus and Jesus himself, or even God (depicted with a face when nobody knows his face!), are NOT defined as idols even when they clearly *are* by definition.
In a brilliant display of semantic arguments, they’re defined as symbols – a vehicle through which messages are passed on. You are NOT praying to these directly, BUT are instead praying to God through them.
Which, by the way, is exactly how the Shinto, Buddhist (certain branches) and Hindu sects view their idols!
Another case of convenient redefinition and the “moving of goalposts” here…
November 25, 2009 at 5:39 am |
A chicken I have heard similar things and it always leaves me confused at how they can so easily lie to themselves. You could also say that they in some ways worship their churches more then their god. I have seen several hundred thousands of dollars spent on churches but seldom see the giving to those in need. When they go on the defense it is usually that their religion is all about love but with the way they spend the money on those churches would say it is more about who has the biggest church.
theBeattitude have you changed the way comments are handled? I used to get an email with any new comments in them but now I just get an email with the name of the person making the comment and it can be tough finding each new comment when there have been several comments.
November 25, 2009 at 7:52 am |
For further study:
Gods, Goddesses, and Images of God by Othmar Keel
Religions of Ancient Israel: A Synthesis of Parallactic Approaches by Ziony Zevit
Israelite Religions: An Archaeological and Biblical Survey by Richard S. Hess
I’ve always wondered if the paucity of human and natural images from the Holy Land had more to do with poverty than predilection.
November 25, 2009 at 8:13 am |
The best are the graven images of the Ten Commandments which forbid the making of graven images.
The cognitive dissonance of the people who believe this stuff simply has no limit.
November 25, 2009 at 11:31 am |
uhmmmm…. you can’t make them if you then bow down and worship them, but if you make them just to look at them, it’s OK. …… How’s that? Yeah. That covers it. OK then. Whew! Contradiction solved.
Oh. We’re worshiping the images of Jesus/Mary/angels/apostles/etc. … no wait a minute… We’re not ‘worshipping’ them, we’re just ‘venerating’ them. Important word difference there. Whew! Dodged another one.
Boy, this walking on theological eggshells is stressful.
November 25, 2009 at 4:08 pm |
Semantics are an apologist’s best friend.
November 25, 2009 at 11:40 am |
The Roman Catholic Church, in many countries, strikes me as breaking the rule about “put no God before me.” Mary is the Goddess of that church, and all else follows after her.
November 25, 2009 at 1:06 pm |
Aw gee. Just ’cause the Catholics and the Orthodox call Mary the Mother of God, the womb of Heaven, the queen of Heaven, more glorious than the angels, exalted above all the earth, the wellspring of salvation; and just ’cause they spend a significant portion of their worship services singing, praying, etc to her, you think she’s their deity??? Gosh, that’s such a stretch.
November 25, 2009 at 8:20 pm |
And: Just because the Marian prayers are modeled after Manichean prayers to Mani doesn’t mean that Maryolatry post-dates Mani. No, it’s apostolic tradition!
November 26, 2009 at 10:51 am
And just because the Ten Commandments are modeled after the Egyptian Book of the Dead doesn’t mean …um, never mind. No, Christian apologists have said that the devil, knowing about the coming of Christ, pre-planted all the similarities that we read in Judaeo-Christian texts in the religions of Horus, Mithras, etc. just to confuse the faithful.
Seriously, though, the figure of Mary is one of the BEST features of Christianity, and she might never have become so popular if “God the father” weren’t such a prick. Men tend to forget where they came from. It’s no coincidence that the books of Judith and Esther, both uppity women, were dumped by the Protestants.
I think goddess worship is as silly as any other religion, but it has to be healthier than despising half of humanity.
November 27, 2009 at 12:04 am
Protestants have Esther, just the Hebrew rather than Greek Esther.
November 27, 2009 at 3:29 pm |
Do you seriously think the Author of Exodus forgot what he had written 5 chapters earlier in Exodus 20?
Very simple rule of thumb when Exegeting a passage of Scripture is that if you’re looking at two “conflicting” passages from the same book, then they are not conflicting.
The Ark of the Covenant is what is being talked about Exodus 25, Israelites didn’t worship it at all how a Buddhist would worship an Idol of the Buddha. In fact, unless it was being moved it remained in very secluded place in which only the Priests were able to get within eyesight of it.
November 27, 2009 at 9:46 pm |
what makes you so sure there was only one author? Ever heard of JEDP?
November 28, 2009 at 12:45 pm |
Buddhists would say that they don’t worship idols:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ans7.htm
They would also say that it’s all right for people to practice religion according to their own level of understanding. Thus, it’s ok for less intelligent people to believe in gods and spirits and practice all sorts of customs pertaining to these, while more intelligent people will gravitate to more sophisticated sects of Buddhism.
November 30, 2009 at 3:14 pm |
if you’re looking at two “conflicting” passages from the same book, then they are not conflicting.
Well now there’s a good rule that solves ALL conflict problems. ;P
November 29, 2009 at 9:58 pm |
I love that Christians really think they can fix a contradiction with context. “It doesn’t really mean that, it means something else.” I feel like I’m watching Bill Clinton’s deposition.
Anyway this kinda reminds me of when my dad used to say, “Don’t touch the remote control,” and then the next week ask me to pass him the remote. Is it too much to ask for some consistency from an all-knowing, all-powerful sky god?
Jedi, you’re forgetting that the Pentateuch of the Hebrew scriptures were written by many authors. Many scriptural critics agree on this. In that light, the contradictions make sense. But if you claim divine authorship, they don’t. It’s pretty simple: what’s more likely.. that an invisible, omnipotent god couldn’t think of a better way to communicate with his creation than a redundant, bizarre, and sometimes downright cruel text, rift with contradictions… or that this text was written by men, who believed erroneously that they were inspired by an imaginary god?
November 30, 2009 at 2:08 am |
Should those making these arguments be called Christians or wannabe Jews? Jesus did nail the Old Testament to his cross for a reason. Maybe the reason had a lot to do with it being a contradictory mess. The notion that Christianity is supposed to be based on an infallible Old Testament is a little modern I’d say.
November 30, 2009 at 9:09 am |
Jews took the scriptures pretty damn seriously (and literally) for a long time. A lot of them still do.
November 30, 2009 at 11:54 am |
The New Testament takes a great deal of effort to show that the life of Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy. Not to mention that Jesus makes mention of the Old Testament a lot, taking care to mention that it still very much applies.
Secondly, even if most Christians want to throw out the teachings of the Old Testament (and who could blame them), it’s still part of the Bible. The vast majority of Christians recognize that the Old Testament is canon. Therefore, those horrifying things mentioned? It doesn’t matter whether or not God changed His mind about all of that because it still purportedly happened. Those events are still part of your Scripture.
Whether or not you want to acknowledge it, the Old Testament, especially the parts where God brags about slaughtering millions and wiping out the entire population of the planet, save for one family, is a huge black mark against your faith. That is the God who you worship. At least according to the book where your particular God comes from, that is. It’s kind of silly to divorce your deity from the actual source material, don’t you think?
November 30, 2009 at 3:06 pm
People prefer to worship the happy Buddy Christ. Sure Jesus was the fulfillment of the genocidal sadistic Yahweh, but Jesus was his “do over” … right?
Unfortunately the New Testament quotes from every Old Testament Book except Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon. Not to mention Jesus himself quoted from 24 different Old Testament books.
So it’s sort of hard to deny the ugliness and absurdity of the Old Testament. Jesus was all about honoring Old Testament scripture. So either it’s all true, or none of it is.
December 2, 2009 at 12:04 am |
Just another example of complete contradiction of which there are many.
And these contradictions are not exclusive to the Old Testament. The New Testament has them also. They’re just not as bold.
December 7, 2009 at 3:06 pm |
aTo be fair, its is the cat-o-licks that create idols of the sex goddess Mary and all of the blood-stained saints, and they can hardly be called Christian.
The catolicks adopted the Dagon fish-head god and formed a sun-worshipping cult based on eastern rites. The pope still wears the funny hat that shows the fish head, and they wear dresses and have “choirs” of young boys around, just like the satraps of old..
December 14, 2009 at 9:52 am |
I agree with the context call on this one. It’s interesting to look at these Old Testament (hint) records in light of the context and God’s relationship with man at the time.
Why did God have the Ark created in the first place or the temple or the tabernacle in the Old Testament? And… what was God truly after?